RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on January 20, 2008, 07:41:14 PM
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I have found several references on the internet to a non factory eight inch hydraulic brakes conversion kit marketed in Britain for KR200's. Does anyone know anything about this?
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I have a copy of an article on converting messerschmitt brakes to hydraulic - I'ts dated october 6th 1960 out of Motor Cylcling - it says tha a firm named J W Perkins of 130 pinner road Harrow (over your way?) have a kit of parts - I imagine there are long since gone out of business but I'll copy the article if you want me to.
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Thanks Mike. A copy would be much appreciated. I have for some time now wanted to develop my own hydraulic braking system for a schmitt but unlike the common one that uses ten inch mini wheels I still wanted to keep the eight inch wheels so that the conversion would be invisible. I tryed to think of other cars that had eight inch wheels and hydraulics but could only think of scootacars and Inters and using these parts is a none started due to there rarity. Does anyone know of any other cars that fit the bill with readily available parts? What about some of the French sans permis cars?
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? What about some of the French sans permis cars?
EEK!!! Keep away, keep away!!! Mind you, my Mini-Comtesse does indeed have 8 inch wheels, but the brakes are operated by rod (no, not you Daniel, you've got too many "d"'s... ::)), however the later 1980s versions have hydrulics. Only problem is, they're actully rarer than a Scootacar over here!!!!!! :o
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Dear Bobby Bubble
If you look at the modern day French San Permis vehicles they have some very small disc brakes on the front and rear wheel because they are very light, and whilst the wheels are bigger I would expect that they may fit inside of a smaller wheel. Also look at mountain bike and trials bikes, which use some very small and light weight disc brakes that are very powerful.
Some of the small disc brake systems are cable operated and could perhaps be more easily addapted to the KR200.
Chris T
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Dont panic Stuart, your comtesse is safe! I'm not about to wreck a car for its brakes, thats why I bought up spares availability. Chris, thanks for your suggestions. I own a Virgo and have looked at the disc's but this option throws up more problems, i.e. no where to anchor the calipers without welding lumps onto the suspension arm and thats a no no, I'm only prepared to do such a conversion if it can be reversed with no or little damage, the whole hub/disc arrangement is wider causing wheels to foul the wings, plus the fact that the brakes are not great to start with [week and prone to siezing]. Cable operated calipers are not what I wanted, the whole idea is to eliminate the constant adjustments needed with cable systems, thats why I have concluded that a small drum hydraulic system is the best idea. I still think the answer is in France and Stuart may have given me the solution. Any more ideas anyone?
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How about Ligier JS4 brakes?
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Well JS4 wheels look to be eight inch although rather fat, are they hydraulic? I know they work well enough because I had a go of Nicks in the summer at Jeans. Nick has moved his on I think. Does anyone have one I could take a look at or anything else that fits the bill? Is this something that you might consider for yours P50 or is it sacreligious? There is another alternative and thats to build some up from scratch to my own design, its quite feasable because I have already done it for the Inter, when I bought it both of the whole wheel hub/drum plus brakes backplate assemblies were missing. I borrowed one from a pal in France and had castings done from it, machined them up, made the shoes and used Renault 4cv slave cylinders. To look at them you would never know but for the fact that I have just told the world and his dog! The down side is that it cost about £500!
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Whilst I find the whole Schmitt braking system agricultural to say the least and tiresome to keep in A1 spec I think it's part of the car and thus should remain. You can lock the wheels of a KR on cables so I've learnt to live with the constant adjustment and moving of the lever one notch.
JS4 brakes are hydraulic 8" drums. Flexi pipes go from each cylinder to the master. There are no steel pipes. The master would fit a treat in the nose of a KR. The drums are narrow and petite although the wheels are very chunky. Trouble is JS4's and 6's are rocking horse excreta these days...
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Thanks P50. Now who has the parts I need to try it?
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EBAY France watch list and see what comes through...
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The brake cylinders for Scootacars are same as morris minor and all parts still readily available and the Scootacar Lockheed 3/4" master cylinder is also still available (part 95415) from PowerTrack Ltd in Windsor. Hope this helps.
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Thanks bubblenuts, Am I correct in thinking that the drums and backplates are morris minor rear? Do you know what the wheels were from because they are completely different to the kr200?
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Scootacars have a only 3 nuts holding on the wheels.
Unique, bespoke,unsuitable for your conversion and impossible to obtain anyway!
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Where there's a wheel there's a way! Ha Ha!!
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I've done considerable research on this over the past week or so and it seems that the kit offered in 1960 was a seven inch by one and a quarter drum with twin leading shoes of girling origin, its all beginning to sound very Isetta like. The master cylinder was not mounted behind the brake pedal but alongside the handbrake bracket and was operated remotely, probably by the left side cable ear, I haven't worked that out yet as the ear moves in the wrong direction to push the rod. { thats a thought, where is the master cylinder mounted on a TG500? there is precious little room behind the pedal} The kit was £25 in 1960 so quite a lot of money back then. I am still assuming that some custom parts were made to enable it all to go together, possibly a bespoke hub or even narrower drum so as not to make the track wider. I know the average schmitt could take a slightly wider track but when I restored mine I was sold some new steel wings from the club that old Garner as usual was promoting as the best thing since sliced bread and as not unusual were seriously floored. The wings are good quality and nicely made but actually come up slightly narrower than the originals leaving no room for a wider distance between wheels. Apparently there is a guy who has already successfully done this conversion recently and drives a car that has also has an MZ engine conversion, thats going too far for me but I'm still determined to at least get my head around the brakes idea even if I decide not to do it on my current car.
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Hi
Super Comtesse & Break are both 8" hydraulic, but can't find out who original manufacturer is.
John
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Being French it could be Bendix?
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There was a complicated system that looks like two friction pads rubbing together, made by Luchier
and a disc set-up by Girard. I'll try to find out who made the drum brakes and post here if I have any
luck.
These systems were used on many of the SP class of vehicles.
Regards
Nick D.
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Hi
Just had an email from french microcar enthusiast.
He says that the Acoma brake system is the same as on an Arola. Still no manufacturer, but it is another little but of info..
John
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Hi John
My Arola 11 (three-wheeler) and the current four-wheeler both have cable brakes so
I'm not sure which model your French friend has in mind.
Still no word from my French people apart from a couple of unhelpful comments but
I'll keep the thread up to date if I hear anything.
Regards
Nick D.
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Thanks guys. I have just been put in touch with a guy who has already converted his, im just waiting to see if he is prepared to share his knowledge.
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Acomas from Super onwards are deffo. hydraulic.
With the cables on the Arola I wonder if they actuate directly onto the brake shoes? not up on tis type.
Here is a good picture of a break, does the hub exterior look similar? on the Ebay picture of your 4 wheel Arola it looks completely different to me.
John
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Thanks guys for all your help and suggestions. I have at last found out how to do it and it involves the use of parts that are readily availible and can be done invisibly, will let you know how I get on. Cheers , Bob
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Hello Bobbybubble,
You know, others cars with hydraulic brake system are Isetta Velam, Bmw and Avolette. And the fun thing is that on the Inter and on the Avolette, there are exactly the same wheels,drums and braking system !
Regards
Don
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Hi Donald. of course I know all these cars have hydraulic brakes. They also run on 10 inch wheels and not 8 inch except for the avollette and this is the problem. I did notice that Inter and avolette wheels and hubs were the same but both of these cars are rare and it is very unlikely that these parts will become availible as spare parts. Or should i ask, Don, do you have spare Inter or Avolette wheels and hubs to sell me? Donald, will you be going to Retromobile ? I will be there this saturday the 9th, it would be nice to meet you. Best wishes, Bob
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No bob, i am sorry, i have not spare parts to sell. In fact, i have not spare parts !! the big problem is the rarity of theses cars parts. The bouffort city "enville" had same wheels and hubs as inters and avolettes. But i never saw one, or just saw it, because perhaps it was just one build, i don't know.
Did you see the Reyonnah for sale in France ? i think the guy wants a lot, a big lot of money, regarding th eprice ha wants for a unrestored kr 200 (17 000 Euros) !
I saw your trip to Paris was good, very funny your report with your friends. I am disappointed not have meet you, perhaps later ?
Donald
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Hi Don. I thought that was the case, I think I told you before that my Inter had no drums and hubs/ Backplates ect when I first got it, I borrowed parts from the car that is now owned by Pierrick Chavault and made copies of them. In a way I am glad there are no parts like this spare because I would have gone to all that trouble and expense for nothing! I am afraid to ask the price of the Rayonnah, I fear that it will go to the USA, I'm not against selling cars abroard but because of the rarity and the fact that there are two over there already it would be a shame. I'm sure we will meet up one day. Cheers, Bob
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Is there any publicly viewable listing for this Rayonnah anywhere for us to have a look at, or is it a private personal sale which is not being advertised?
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Stuart, I have emailed you a link.
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Stuart, i don't know the guy who is selling his Reyonnah. in fact, i heard he sells all his microcars collection, seems to be big. I saw annoucement on a website "anciennes.net", i am sur you know this website.
Bob, i am impressed you made new fabrications for your Inter ! The little design you did for your torpedo looks attractive, really. Congratulations,
Don
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Thanks Don. I'm glad you like it. Design? What design is that? This is all pure Torpedo !!!
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I do know an ex messerchmitt owner who lives locally I believe he had hydralic brakes in his KR 200.
I usually see him around or if I can find his telephone no I will ask him about them, I think they were off a small aircraft.
I do know that the KR 200 was sold to someone in Doncaster.
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Cheers Colin. All information is welcome. In the absence of other plans at the present I will proberbly persue the John Bannel route.