RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 09:31:27 AM

Title: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 09:31:27 AM
Here is an issue that often comes up and I cant remember it being debated on the forum before. Example. Someone wants to sell a rare microcar/motorcycle/vintage car, whatever. He knows its a rare vehicle and so googles it and discovers a register, upon contacting the register, who really gets first crack at acquiring the vehicle, is it not whoever is running the register at the time? Some have said that the noble thing to do is to give some advise about values and tell them to put it on the open market where as the temptation to say I will take it off your hands , after all I am the register so it will be going to a good home must be enormous! If the person running the register is also a collector there is a conflict of interests. Some registers have policies on this , others don't. Personally I have no axe to grind but thought it might be an interesting subject to debate.
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: marcus on December 13, 2009, 10:13:31 AM
Ultimately the car is private property and the seller has the right to sell to anyone who wants to buy. If I were to sell any classic I would first offer it to any club or register before putting it on the open market, but that is my choice.
As for the person who runs a club or register, or is on the committee or a director, they may very well get advance notice of an opportunity, and I consider that to be fair because they are putting in the effort to keep the club going. If others think it is unfair then they should perhaps consider getting more involved in the club.
If the seller thinks it is unfair for the register owner or committee to get first crack they have the right to notify others first.

If I had the money and space, and was desperately keen to buy a rare and valuable item (car or anything else), I would join all suitable clubs and registers, get to know as many people as possible in that world, work hard for the club or register to get myself into the right circles, and make it widely known that I want one! Those who do the work are in a better place to reap the rewards and I see nothing wrong with that.


Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 10:45:33 AM
Interesting take on it Marcus. I don't necessarily disagree however I see a slight flaw in your argument, there is usually only one person running a register,  say there are 50 people all desperate to own a 1969 Escort Mexico, no matter how willing and involved they are or want to become only one man does the job at a time and thus is first to hear about the Escort for sale. I suppose it only really becomes an issue if the register keeper is exposed as being a covert wheeler dealer.
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Stuart Cyphus on December 13, 2009, 11:32:19 AM
 Only one small flaw to the above arguement really The outsiders never hear of how many vehicles are offered to the chap (or chapess) running the register in question & which the chap in charge points the seller to another member whom he knows wants something like that. It's a far higher satistic than most people car to think about.....

 I know you've put the case on general terms Bob, & I know you don't mean any of it personally to me  :-* but I can't help feeling somewhat insulted on behalf of all the registers. But then again, maybe I'm too sensitive.  ;)
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 12:39:17 PM
That's a very good counter argument Stuart, people would not know how many are passed on to others.You are quite right Stuart, It's not meant to be personal or aimed at anybody at all that I know. Its just something that comes up in my motorcycle circles from time to time and I thought it might be an interesting topic to debate. If we are all too sensitive and afraid of discussing these topics what the point of having a forum?
Its actually a topic that Edwin brought up with me years ago, Jean will bear me out, he said that in the early days of Rumcars it was something he was accused of so he decided on a policy of only buying vehicles that had already been offered on the open market first and thus pre-emptying any bad feeling. I cant be sure if all the Hammond collection was acquired under the same policy but that was his general feeling on the matter. As I remember Mike Shepherd had a similar policy when he was editor of RCN and I think Tony does the same, I remember he acquired the Powerdrive only after it had been advertised for several months. Obviously we will all have a different take on the subject as illustrated by Marcus's view. Who else is going to chip in? No need for anyone to get upset, its just a debate!
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: marcus on December 13, 2009, 03:44:51 PM
I certainly agree that for a one-person register it can be a tricky situation, and if I was in it I would at least notify others that I had been offered a rarity. Stuart's point is a good one, and I know that he has done a lot to try to find new homes for cars and ICs   
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Jim Janecek on December 13, 2009, 03:47:55 PM
all it takes is for one or two "Registers" to be used to obtain first crack at vehicles for all others to be subject to scrutiny.
I know of one Register in the US that is run by one person and seems to exist for that reason.

As for Registers and/or Clubs getting first crack at cars for sale, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I can see where members could call foul play depending on the circumstances.
A Club I USED to belong to used to publish classified ads in the newsletter.  They did not want the "appearance" of impropriety so a clause was always printed saying officers of the club would not act on any ads until at least 3 days after the newsletter was mailed.
This seemed fair until I found out that this only applied to the ads that were actually PRINTED!
For many years, people would submit classifieds and the Club Officers would then grab up whatever cars or parts they wanted to buy BEFORE ever making it to print.  So really the only cars making it to print were the ones the Club Officers did not want.  Oh, "get involved and be a Club Officer"? you may say?  Sorry, members not allowed at meetings.  Invitation only to be a "Club Officer".
So, while I do agree with Marcus' point, in this instance "getting more involved" would not get you anywhere. That Club existed to serve a few people. "Members" were another class that received the crumbs.

I should also point out that being the person that accepts and also seeks out classifieds for a Club magazine, I do find it tempting to pounce on some things myself, but fortunately I have neither the money nor the storage to collect.  I also have people asking me all the time what is coming up in the next issue in regards to the classified and I have always turned down any requests as I feel it would be unfair to other members.  Of course, the seller could put the car up on eBay from the time it was listed in the classified section to the time it got printed so it could be sold already, but I am always surprised at the number of the people that do NOT want to use eBay.
I have also heard that a few of people think I acquired the two microcars that I DO own via the classifieds in Microcar News (Goggomobil Transporter & Zündapp Janus), the Goggo was acquired long ago before the magazine existed and while I did acquire the Janus while Microcar News existed, it was never offered up to Club members.  It was offered privately to a friend of mine who went back and forth about it for about a year before I asked permission if I could be allowed to buy it.  Once I had permission from my friend, (?) I asked the seller and was politely turned down (I offered asking price).  Months later I received a call from the seller asking if I was still interested and I agreed to the price without any haggling, this was the reason he called me back as everyone else he had offered the car to had tried to get him to cut his price almost in half.   I was the only person willing to pay his asking price (which I thought was fair).  But he did not want to advertise the car publicly in any way.  He was also not a Club member and did not want to place a classified ad.  So I had no choice but to buy the car!



Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Jim raises exactly the issues I have heard rumours of regarding some "registers" in the uk and France. [I emphasise again for the sensative amoungst us that I am not refering to RUMCARS or the ICR]  .
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Jawmedead on December 13, 2009, 06:48:22 PM
Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?

Do the sellers care, as long as they get their money?
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: g-o-g-g-o on December 13, 2009, 07:41:29 PM
Hi Bob
          I believe that registers should offer the car's to members first instead of the register or the committee getting "First pick" I do not agree with rob that so long as the sellers get their money who cares - as with all registers or clubs that rare car that was hidden away for years the owner does not know the value of it so he approaches the relevant register to ask how much it is worth - it is undervalued and someone gets a bargain only to be sold on a few months later at a huge profit!!
  When I edited RUM Car News I used to get a lot of cars offered for sale - and I did not buy them, not because I did not have the money but I wanted to give the ordinary members a chance to buy that unusual car. Some clubs do not have any cars offered to the ordinary members because the "Committee" or "Register" take all of the cars - the only way you can get a car is by advertising that you want one.
   I notice that this topic started when the ICR said that he had bought five cars from a Scrapyard and he will sell on three in the next few months - I do hope he not going to make a profit on these three cars - I think not, knowing Stewart any profit he will make will just to cover his expenses.
                                                                                                                                                                                             Mike
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: jackiep on December 13, 2009, 10:24:13 PM
Hi All ,
     Well as a relatively new soul on this website I thought I would stick my two pennyworth in .
          I think Committee  Members  of Clubs should offer cars  to the wider membership  & I believe that this has not  been done  for some years . The longer term overview , which I take, is that these few good cars remain within a committee clique  & so members don't get a look in . Thus enthusiasm fades if you cant get in there with a car as well .
           Clubs  membership decline  because its confined to a few . Isn't that's what happening NOW .
             Committee members should be transparent/ honest  in their dealings & not take advantage of their elected position .

          If you are dealing in cars then surely you should put in your Tax Return like we other poor mortals .. The Revenue do take into account your expenses.
              Sorry if it hurts anyones  feelings, I agree with Edwin's thoughts  on this .. Jackie 
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 13, 2009, 10:46:46 PM
Just from the few that have commented on this so far its amazing how geometrically opposed the opinions are, from Marcus who in principal see nothing wrong with registers getting first crack to Mike and Jackie who see it as quite wrong. From Jims comments I think he was somewhere in the middle. Personally I think I'm coming out in favour of Mikes view and think that registers should exist purely for the benefit of the members. I'm sure that the vast majority of registers are honorable especially our own and the icr for that matter, I know Stuart works pretty selflessly for his weird and wonderful cause. Rumcars has always been good to me, whenever I have needed any help Jean especially has always been great! Any more observations, anyone?
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: cuscus47 on December 13, 2009, 11:23:08 PM
I believe that this immediate case of the five Model 70's is unique, or if not unique then very uncommon.  The yard that where these were stored I believe was not interested in selling these vehicles out at one at a time.  It wanted all of these to go or nothing.  I think Stuart needs to be commended in saving these and stepping forward on behalf of the ICR (or because of the ICR), rescuing them and offering them to other willing collectors who may not have wanted all five.  I also see nothing wrong, with  Stuart being compensated by keeping one for himself, or two if parts are needed.   My dialogue on this may have been slightly different had there been only one.  It is a very difficult choice to make an unqualified opinion.  Under very special circumstances, I feel that the keepers of Registers, have some very difficult decisions to make, and so there needs to be some flexibility in interpretation of what is best for the given register and/or members of a particular club.    Ian.
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: marcus on December 14, 2009, 08:24:08 AM
Just to clarify: if I ran a club or register I would ensure that I would allow members to bid openly before I snapped up anything rare or desirable, but I do not think it is easy to lay down firm rules, and cuscus47 highlights a good example of why there must be some flexibility.
There will always be the chance of unfairness somewhere in life, there is always someone who has more luck and contacts, but such are the vagaries of life and rules can be broken.
If I join a club, register, forum or anything similar I find out what the rules and standards are like and comply; I do not join any which I do not like, so if someone is in a register where the owner DOES snag all the best stuff they have the option of leaving!
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Bob Purton on December 14, 2009, 09:49:29 AM
Marcus, do I detect a little back pedaling?  :D  Just one more thought comes to my mind in line with what Jim said about all registers coming under suspicion due to one or two dodgy ones. Could this be why there is a reluctance on the part of some to register there cars? Is the thought of a predatory dealer having access to the owners and where abouts of all the cars putting people off? We should have no fear of that with Alistair at the helm, in fact a while back Alistair made clear the privacy policy of Rumcars on the forum. If the unscrupulous behavior of some is holding folk back there is certainly no need as far as Rumcars is concerned!

As this thread has likely run its course now I would like to congratulate everyone for discussing a potentially stick topic well and with nobody getting out of there pram! Well done all!
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Jim Janecek on December 14, 2009, 02:06:24 PM
Could this be why there is a reluctance on the part of some to register there cars?

I don't believe so.  I think it is more privacy concerns on the part of the new owner and also the "What's In It For Me?" factor.
If the owner of a vehicle does not want the services of a Register, what incentive do they have to bother?
I know MANY "collectors" (or accumulators really....) that do not properly register their vehicles with the government and do not even change the TITLE of the vehicle over to themselves!
There is a paranoid thread that runs through many people about letting other organizations know what items you own for the fear that somehow, someway this information will be used against you.
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: marcus on December 14, 2009, 02:34:16 PM
Me back pedalling? Well my bike's handlebars are on the back wheel! I was just saying that I would offer a car to my members first, but if the owner of a club or register took something nice I would just think of it as an example of fortune favouring the prepared.
 Good debate everyone!
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: Smart51 on December 14, 2009, 06:57:03 PM
What about people who want to buy your rare car just to convert it into something else - a kiddies 50p a go postman pat van or something.  Would you sell at a lower price to someone who will look after it?
Title: Re: Should registers get first offer on vehicles for sale?
Post by: marcus on December 14, 2009, 08:42:17 PM
I would certainly sell at a lower price for a known enthusiast, and would give any enthusiasts prior notice of sale...unless someone came by and twisted my arm!