RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Stuart Cyphus on September 20, 2010, 10:44:40 PM
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As Big Al mentioned elsewhere, this September weekend just past did indeed contain a spot of Peel Playtime :) as the below photos will recount for your viewing pleasure.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/S7304870.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/S7304867.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/S7304873.jpg)
Even Tinks got in on the action as ever she does, & when asked to give her opnion, duely obliged... ::) (Actully, she didn't really. That's bildge water empted out from several days earlier) ;)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/S7304876.jpg)
Meanwhile, it would seem somebody had taken ROOT in it. Ooh, suits you sir.... :)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/S7304864.jpg)
I can hear it now: Anarchy in the Streets! The "wrong" people are daring to touch Peel's! Head for the hills before it's too late. The whole fabric of socieoty is hanging by a thread...... Where will it all end?! 8)
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Looks like old new stock. Are you building it up from scratch, or rebuilding an original?
Either way, good to see that you enjoy the journey- but not so much that you never get to the finish.
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Seeing as it is in the picture, anyone want a Mini? That bit of concrete is nearly famous as is the on hand Dalmatian. The Peel Pixies are a new addition.
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Playtime? But I thought the Playtime looked like this:
(http://www.3wheelers.com/eec.jpg)
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Oh dear.
El Capitano Cyphundo is now a member of the Peel mafioso.
Watch out...
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;)
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On reflection ever more Mafia like as there are several 'gangs' now. Are we going to see Peels cruising past clubnights and presentations with tommy guns (small GRP ones of course) blazing? Puts a slightly differing spin on the title of the topic. Will that be an Isetta head or a battery on my pillow? This Peel thing is certainly getting all rather interesting even if you are not so interested in the cars themselves. With Root down the road I expect to hear a bit about it.
It looks like I am a member of the mafia too as Root prefers a differing offer to my project pictured to base his take on Peel technology. Pity but it might work out OK as I have some leads to follow up once I have refinanced, one has been all but secured on having Roots decision. Not doing very well for someone not collecting but it is hard to resist.
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Can you lower a Peel and tint its dome to opaque a la Range Rovers tintz?
Perhaps an alloy spoiler on the back of the roof of a P50. Surely the ultimate would be a jumping Peel with hydraulic dampers/shocks.
Maybe not.
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Dear Stuart
I do hope you are not thinking of turning the P50 into a stretched Limmo (two seater) with chrome wheel spinners on the front (no point on the back) and a suited and booted driver up front (your dad). It may be rare but I think it would not suit your image.
Chris Thomas
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chrome wheel spinners on the front
Nah, we'll leave the chrome spinners to those fancy Trident thingys.... ;) Along with the suggestions of tinted windows & fancy hydrulics, theres always the option of a big bore engine ;) ;) (The Peel Mafia Knows what I mean)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/thing054.jpg)
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That's an interesting cartoon, it appears to be based on the prototype with single front wheel. Nice one Stuart. I shall have to lift it for my scrap book!
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Modified Peels for Stuart have been discussed. The double decked one, a tad unstable. The Limo was mooted. Since the Peel is mid engined and been on Top Git it clearly is an ideal candidate for a tune up. I reckon one of those drone Wankel engines would go in. I think they run out at some 55 bhp. So whale tail, spoiler and wide wheels a must. A Peel that can do a TG500 in a straight line? Where's Terry Moore when you need him?
The one I liked was the Big Al Peel which would be 20% larger in every way so it really only shows when in a line up. However I prefer to ultimately look to replicate the original specification as I do not really see the point in a modified Peel (is it called a Scootacar?).
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I indeed think a larger Peel is a Scootacar. Just went for a ride round block in the Trident and it's scary. The Scoot is a pleasure. Ergo usable Peel.
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I just wish the Scootacar had something more sophisticated than the Villiers. I am not a fan of Villiers really, save for the twin blower 3T of which I am a double fan of course. Then again there are plenty of folk who get good performance from their Villiers. Perhaps it was the supply of dodgy pistons or something but all I recall is the Bond owners happily knocking down an engine at events between them to repair some malady using spares bought in full expectation of a failure. Or is this a product of the cars then being all but worthless. I do not recall Schmitts suffering the same level of faults though. In fact the level of Schmitt failures at event seems to have risen if anything - money does not instil reliability, use does. And before you start I am as guilty as I am not using my car much, which is why I know.
The Peel on the other hand had a pretty good engine for the time. I hate to think what it would have been like with one of those horrible custard stirrers that were available in Britain at the time and infested much of our low powered equipment like lawn mowers, generators and mopeds like the Wisp. Indeed it is hard to re engine the Peel with a period engine that would be much of an improvement. You cannot say the same for a lot of Microcars.
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I just wish the Scootacar had something more sophisticated than the Villiers. I am not a fan of Villiers really, save for the twin blower 3T of which I am a double fan of course. Then again there are plenty of folk who get good performance from their Villiers. Perhaps it was the supply of dodgy pistons or something but all I recall is the Bond owners happily knocking down an engine at events between them to repair some malady using spares bought in full expectation of a failure. Or is this a product of the cars then being all but worthless. I do not recall Schmitts suffering the same level of faults though. In fact the level of Schmitt failures at event seems to have risen if anything - money does not instil reliability, use does. And before you start I am as guilty as I am not using my car much, which is why I know.
The Peel on the other hand had a pretty good engine for the time. I hate to think what it would have been like with one of those horrible custard stirrers that were available in Britain at the time and infested much of our low powered equipment like lawn mowers, generators and mopeds like the Wisp. Indeed it is hard to re engine the Peel with a period engine that would be much of an improvement. You cannot say the same for a lot of Microcars.
I agree. However my verdict is the Villiers engine is tough as old boots and will accept abuse all day.
You can rev the nuts off it and smash it through the gears and it doesn't moan. It's a very agricultural engine and smokes like a navvy but I liken it to an Austin B series engine. Not terribly sophisticated, efficient or refined but reliable. The Amal carb doesn't even have an idle adjust screw relying on the cable adjuster. Thus the idle will never be constant due to variable such as heat and wear etc. Mine does idle but it's no sewing machine like the Bing equipped Sachs unit.
The KR motor is much sweeter using higher quality materials and build. They sing on a motorway or A road and once warm produce minimal smoke. However they are on the limit of power versus application and tend to suffer from various maladies. I keep thinking something will go catastrophically wrong with mine but after 12k miles it soldiers on perhaps with 5% less power. I worry about the clutch bearing, primary chain, big end and fragile recalcitrant gearbox.
The Peel engine is a jewel. With 49cc it has 4.2 PS. The KR with 191cc has 9.4 PS so it's plain to see the DKW motor is much more highly tuned. Mr Cannel went for this motor for that very reason. It has a lovely gearbox and seems to enjoy being revved to death which is what you have to do in a Trident. The Bing 17mm crab is also a nice unit and has an idle screw. The Peel engine however does seem to smoke quite a lot with the usual 25ish/1 mix. The Peel is like a Morgan Aero 8 (stay with me here!!) i.e., a mass produced German engine in a handmade and handsome low volume body! As Al says, should it have had a Brit 50cc moped lump it would have been an even worse machine. You can't really say they would've not sold on that basis because they, err, didn't anyway with a total of perhaps 130 units of both models.
The Scootacar is the link between a Peel and say a Treinkle or Isetta. Bonkers but usable. With what appears zero availability I predict values to follow the Peel. In fact what is the value? Like Peels they never come up so no one knows what they achieve. I value them much to Bobs chagrin as way in excess of a KR.
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Ough! Ouch! Thats two jabs I have recieved so far this day! First one from Trident who says we cant mention the IC word in case Bob gets upset.Quit right too as this is a microcar forum. ;) I think its worth mentioning though whilst on the subject of the villiers motor that it served the s### wagons very well for an extensive period, no problems with jumping out of gear or the clutch bearing breaking through the ali housing either like the sachs engine. Dont tell me this doesnt happen because I have two pairs of casings in my workshop with this damage. I thing Al is right in suggesting that Bond owners in the past were tight or else brasic and run there cars on a shoe string hence the failures. Second jab, from young Perry, thinks Bob doesnt like the fact that Scoot prices are rising, I never denied that only its funny how Perry only talks up the values of the cars he happens to own! :D :D Still I will see him on sunday , shame he wont be risking driving his extrememly usable and valuable scoot to the Battlesbridge show! ;) ;)
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There was a nice Mk 1 Scootacar being advertised for sale by Dave Morgan at the National Microcar Rally in Malvern earlier this month.
yes, there was but it sold very quickly ;), hardly surprising at the price though. Almost too cheap not to buy
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Still I will see him on sunday , shame he wont be risking driving his extrememly usable and valuable scoot to the Battlesbridge show! ;) ;)
What, he is not going to be driving his extremely unusable and worthless Trident to Battlesbridge ?. Its is very nicely restored though ;D
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Nicely restored? Olie must have done it then. ;)
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Ollie had to correct all the faults missed by the idiot who tried to restore it first time. The P50 will be better I am sure ;).
Any way, Ollie has plenty to do getting Perry's Tippen Delta roadworthy then there is his MkG estate to do :D
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Ahh! That makes sense. I thought the P50 was the one that was badly restored? Didnt it blow up on the IOM? This is where I'm still at with my Isetta, going over all the previous owners bodge ups. Still, nearly done now mechanically at least. Its much better talking about Perry when he's not on line isnt it! I dare say the barrage will come later tonight!
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yes, there was but it sold very quickly ;), hardly surprising at the price though. Almost too cheap not to buy
:o Why am I suddenly getting the figuer: "Five & a half" in my mind following that statement, ??? & I'm not talking about money either..... ;)
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Ahh! That makes sense. I thought the P50 was the one that was badly restored? Didnt it blow up on the IOM? This is where I'm still at with my Isetta, going over all the previous owners bodge ups. Still, nearly done now mechanically at least. Its much better talking about Perry when he's not on line isnt it! I dare say the barrage will come later tonight!
The P50 is not that bad but does need a good going over to make it 100% correct. The engine is a bit weak but it did not blow, Perry just needed to thrash it a bit more !. Lord Cyphus is back on line and Perry will follow soon I am sure ;)
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The P50 is not that bad but does need a good going over to make it 100% correct.
More yellow paint, that's the answer.... ;D
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Oh, I see, he wasn't driving it hard enough! That out of character! ;D
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Just noticed the earlier post that it was Dave Morgan advertising the Mk1. I can only guess that must have been my X car. Was it pale blue by any chance?
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Yes, your old pale blue one , TSV923.
Your maths is letting you down Lord Cyphus. I was up to 5.5 three years ago when I got the silver Mk2 just as you were thinking about the same one ;D.
The only way to drive a Peel is thrash it very hard and make it like it. The DKW lump will take a good beating and only the big end will fail eventually. Perry has a NOS 804 160 4.2ps genuine Peel engine to assist the rebuild of is original and then it will be fit for a further thrashing but in a more original factory finish I hope ;)
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What was TSV advertised for out of interest?
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I think it was offers over 10K :-[
Is that cheap now? Blimey glad I had the Mk2 now. Getting out of touch not trading.....
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remember that blue p50 that was on ebay and was deemed to be a fake advertised as a genuine one?its in this weeks classic car weekly going up for auction at one of the auction houses,estimate £15,000-25,000
going to be some upset faces once the new owners find out what it really is
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Classic Car weekly have used a 'Library picture' to advertise the future sale of a red P50 at auction. Unfortunately for them they have used a picture from E-Bay or Flicker of the alleged replica P50 that has been discussed at length here before.
That said I am sure the final sale price will cause a bit of further discussion in a couple fo weeks time :o
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I think it was offers over 10K :-[
Yeh right.
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....will cause a bit of further discussion in a couple fo weeks time :o
Something else might cause a bit of further discussion in a few weeks time as well hey. ;) (the Peel Mafia knows what I mean)
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Classic Car weekly have used a 'Library picture' to advertise the future sale of a red P50 at auction. Unfortunately for them they have used a picture from E-Bay or Flicker of the alleged replica P50 that has been discussed at length here before.
That said I am sure the final sale price will cause a bit of further discussion in a couple fo weeks time :o
If this sale is promoted as one of a Peel it will be the test of the resolve of Peel Engineering to protect their brand name. If it is a known replica it is not a Peel. Therefore they can act against the seller and/or agent for infringing their brand name. That could see the sale be withdrawn as auction houses have to tell the truth - though they are very good a not doing so which is why fakes are auctioned to legitimise them over time. Peel could place an injunction on the sale. If there is a sale when the facts were in the public domain they can sue and the way is open for the buyer to do so to. If I owned Peel Engineering I would be onto this as if you do not enforce your brand ownership at each breach then the day it is important the judge will tell you that your record of protection is poor and the name has entered the public domain by general usage. Having just bought the name the new owners have a fair chance of gaining brand protection as they were not responsible for that brand protection prior to their ownership. A judge might not agree. However once a few fakes and things go by unchallenged they have bought a worthless name as a judge will find against them. It will be open season on Peel like objects with anything that shape gaining the name just as a vacuum cleaner is a Hoover.
What happened about the query about the number retention on this car?
I am now have vested interest. If anything is a Peel I submit the market will flood and real examples be swamped in fakes as it will nigh on impossible to tell what is real and what is not - see KR201, you can have a real one but not be able to prove it. Thus real versions with proof will be the valuable machines. Conversely if Peel becomes a protected name the real cars benefit as do the accurate replicas which would gain an enhanced value by honest accuracy. All the inaccurate versions would have a value based on their quality of build and kerb appeal. As I understand it Peel Engineering would have a really tight contract and set of records to protect the construction of a car looking like a Peel. It would probably therefore pay anyone making accurate fakes to take a type name unto themselves, be it The Ventnor, The Cannell or whatever. This would then become a new market area in itself. Bizarrely it could make more accurate cars to Peel Engineering yet not be allowed to call them Peels.
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Classic Car weekly have used a 'Library picture' to advertise the future sale of a red P50 at auction. Unfortunately for them they have used a picture from E-Bay or Flicker of the alleged replica P50 that has been discussed at length here before.
That said I am sure the final sale price will cause a bit of further discussion in a couple fo weeks time :o
If anything is a Peel I submit the market will flood and real examples be swamped in fakes as it will nigh on impossible to tell what is real and what is not - see KR201, you can have a real one but not be able to prove it. Thus real versions with proof will be the valuable machines.
Gentlemen,
My P50 has been previously restored. Just the once as I have a couple of pics of it being exhumed looking very sorry for itself on flat Avon tyres.
I could simply fix up the motor with a new crank etc but the standard of the car is not to my liking so to do the thing justice it's being done again properly and correctly. Over the years I've picked up the right bits (Dare grips Mr Scootacar!) so once done it will be as good as any other and will be white. It was despatched from the Viking Works as a White car and then painted Yellow by Two Strokes. So I sort of have a choice and I prefer white..
Anyway enough of winding me up! I will be at Battlesbridge Mr Purton but Beeb shows rain so I may go in my pals Mercedes 600 and arrive like a despot in the back looking sinister! Or more sinister than usual..
Al,
You simply cannot compare a 201 to a Peel. If you have a 201 door then job done instant Roadster(dunno what the fuss is I much prefer the Kabriolett. Go on then Bob you're free to pipe up as I have a Kab! but seriously I prefer the convertible. What use are 201 side screens?)
But a Peel rep being passed off as the real mcoy? Never! It would take seconds to deduce it wasn't a 60's Peel if you know where to look. Plus the mafia pretty much know every known car and its credentials. A mug punter might get burnt but the likes of you or Lord Cyphus won't.
So we're back to skulduggery,faking and scams. As values nudge higher then more undesirables will enter the arena. As fine art, wrong'ns will try their best but unlike a painting you need the parts. Sorry correct parts. I've not seen a Bing 1/17/44 carb for sale for 4 years and I bought it!
All the fakes will do is thrust the bone fide cars further north value wise. And catch out the odd unlucky sod on the way.
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Truth be know Perry the cabrio would have been my choice but when you find a 57 car there is only one option, and thats to put a dome on it and roast! Battlesbridge looks ify on account of my new clutch not having arrived from Germany, tomorrows post is the last chance. May go on the PuchMS50.
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You simply cannot compare a 201 to a Peel. If you have a 201 door then job done instant Roadster(dunno what the fuss is I much prefer the Kabriolett. Go on then Bob you're free to pipe up as I have a Kab! but seriously I prefer the convertible. What use are 201 side screens?)
But a Peel rep being passed off as the real mcoy? Never! It would take seconds to deduce it wasn't a 60's Peel if you know where to look. Plus the mafia pretty much know every known car and its credentials. A mug punter might get burnt but the likes of you or Lord Cyphus won't.
So we're back to skulduggery,faking and scams. As values nudge higher then more undesirables will enter the arena. As fine art, wrong'ns will try their best but unlike a painting you need the parts. Sorry correct parts. I've not seen a Bing 1/17/44 carb for sale for 4 years and I bought it!
All the fakes will do is thrust the bone fide cars further north value wise. And catch out the odd unlucky sod on the way.
The KR201 comparison and what you mention is precisely why the situation is analogous. Putting a roadster door on a KR200 does not make a KR201. A genuine KR201 has quite a number of differences and fewer were made than Tigers. They are very rare and do not carry separate ID. I can tell most fakes by a quick look just as you might a Peel. But we are talking about the world market which is driving the prices. Many of the buyers will not be able to do that. An auction house will not either. Therefore a genuine car with history is at a premium as it proves what it is. In both cases if I chose to I could produce a very convincing fake even you might struggle to spot. For the right money it becomes worth it. KR201 are now making money. Putting a fake through several auctions legitimises it with a spurious history backed by Sotherby's or whomsoever. A fake becomes a convincing real car and Bob's your aunt Lucy. A number of these plus an expose will knock the market confidence. It is no different to fake art. What will be required is access to records and expertise to support a car is genuine. That puts a few people in a very powerful position. That goes a long way from a hobby.