RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on December 26, 2010, 06:15:25 PM

Title: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on December 26, 2010, 06:15:25 PM
I don't mean on your chips! I think we have discussed this before , many folk recommend boiling ones cruddy old carbs in vinegar to remove fuel lacquer, my Guzzino carb was very encrusted so I thought I would try it this afternoon. I followed the instructions and used white vinegar and water, dismantled and boiled everything for 45 mins, the mazac fizzed away alarmingly! At the end of it the castings looked quite clean but the jets were as bunged up as there were when they went in! I made some copper reamers by filing edges on some copper wire figuring that copper is softer than brass so wouldn't remove any metal, I run them through and some white crud came out, the result is that now my little Guzzi ticks over like clockwork!  The moral of the story is don't believe everything you read on the web! Of course it may have been because I used Tesco vinegar, if I had splashed out on Sarsons the results may have been different!   :D :D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Chris Thomas on December 26, 2010, 07:54:04 PM
Dear Bob

Being an Italian machine I think you should have used white wine vinigar.

Glad to hear that the handraulic method worked and she is ticking over nicely.

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Basket case on December 26, 2010, 07:56:54 PM
Reading this on the web, I'm not sure if I should believe you.....?
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on December 27, 2010, 09:42:57 AM
Welcome to the forum Basket case, very droll! 

Chris, funny enough the stuff that came out of the carb looked a bit like mozzarella! I would not have wasted wine on such a procedure, of course Albert Steptoe would have boiled his carb in the vinegar and then poured it back in the bottle to use on his chips!
I'm preparing this bike to do the coast to coast run this summer with Prof Andrew Naham, curator of the science museum, he rides one to work every morning. [coase to coast is Yorkshire east coast to Cumbria west coast] Talking of autocycle runs, there is the mince pie run on Jan 2nd from the Orwell yacht club coming up and last year a few microcars joined in the run. Look at this link if you are interested.     http://www.icenicam.ukfsn.org/events.html           Looks like the weather will be warming up for it too! 
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Big Al on December 27, 2010, 10:18:51 AM
I'm preparing this bike to do the coast to coast run this summer with Prof Andrew Naham, curator of the science museum, he rides one to work every morning. [coase to coast is Yorkshire east coast to Cumbria west coast]

Yep and the finish is not far from BUMS depot north, where I might well be at that time. Bud did it on a Minimotor powered tandam some years back. It is a fair test of man and machine.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on December 27, 2010, 02:26:31 PM
Thats handy Al, you can get the drinks in at the finish line,  that or rescue us in your van after our little 65cc motors give up on us!
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: microcarlot on December 27, 2010, 05:38:55 PM
I use Apple cyder vinegar a lot to unstick the pistons in bore. It does something to release the steel stuck to the alloy. Lots of times I fill 5 gallon bucket and put whole motor in. Never heard of boiling the carb. I still have some of the old carb cleaner from the 70's. It makes carbs look new.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on December 27, 2010, 06:08:52 PM
I have been told that all the old carb cleaners that you could once buy, the ones that really worked have fallen foul of the new health and safety laws and that the latest offerings are not up to much. Use your 1970's old stock sparingly! I use a lot of paint stripper in the course of my work and have noticed the same thing, the latest stuff lacks bite.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Jim Janecek on December 27, 2010, 06:17:41 PM
when you boil an acid you increase the reaction.
You could get the same reaction at room temperature but what might take a month at room temp would take a few hours while boiling depending on the concentration of the acid.

Many years ago I had to do a job for Pepto Bismol where they wanted to show how a rose dipped in Pepto Bismol was "protected" from stomach acid (HCL, hydrochloric acid).
Dipping a rose into a beaker of room temperature HCL took about an hour for any visible degradation.  That would not work for the TV commercial.
I had to set up an electric heating station and double boiler to heat the acid to a point where, when they dipped the rose in while the camera was running it would immediately wilt and start to disintegrate after being "dipped".   The Pepto Bismol did indeed protect the rose when it was "dipped" but only delayed the reaction by about 10 seconds.

We all had to wear respirators and eye protection and if you are boiling vinegar I would recommend the same as it becomes quite strong at increased temperatures and the fumes can be nasty.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on December 27, 2010, 06:43:14 PM
Thanks for that Jim. The memiors of a prop maker. I was following a recepie that specified dituting the vinegar by five to one which is most likely the reason it didnt work!
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Big Al on December 28, 2010, 12:26:13 PM
I go back to the French supermarkets where they sell chemicals. That is fine apparently as that is not a branded product for, say, cleaning toilets. Thus you can buy it. Here we do not get the option. I nearly got arrested trying to buy Ether to stick my domes together on the basis I might be a 'Prevert'. Instead I had to by Tonsil two part glue for some horrendous price. It is not as good either as it is a glue. Ether effectively welds the damage and can be made an invisible repair if you can stay awake! They used it in the War and my Dad showed me how to do it. Health and Safety is another reason we are going bankrupt as it cost a lot of money to protect idiots from themselves. More sense for them to remove their stupid genes from the gene pool as they will only produce more idiots to look after.

As a prior buyer of totally crudded up parts I have a dustbin full of Diesel. Anything looking iffy goes in the dustbin for at least a month. You would be amazed how good a penetrating oil this is. Forget WD40 etc. Once out of that much will undo, clean or release salvageable items. It kills of the iffy stuff like dodgy rubbers too. The only thing I find to have about is Wurth Rostov (trade) which really gets into seized metal.

Coke will ease stick Pistons if left. I assume it is the Phosphoric acid. So probably similar to Cider and other vinegar. Anything to aggressive will kill the piston which might be re usable. I have used it on carbs but with mixed results. I think it shifts the jelly etc but not the white concretion.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker) on December 29, 2010, 02:01:34 AM
I think you can still buy Ether (Diethyl Ether) try google shopping or

http://www.shop4glue.com/50ml-diethyl-etherethyl-etherether-lab-reagent-grade-specialist-use-distillation-extraction-etc-85-p.asp (http://www.shop4glue.com/50ml-diethyl-etherethyl-etherether-lab-reagent-grade-specialist-use-distillation-extraction-etc-85-p.asp)

Apparently in the Victoria era you could buy it in pubs!
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: jackiep on December 30, 2010, 11:05:02 PM
I dont understand why you are bothering with vinegar at all. Its an acid & will etch metal not to mention the potential for damage on the carb , springs & needle . Surely it would be better to use the correct stuff & not risking your carb .. always an expensive item to replace , if you can find another . Wont petrol do just as well or Jizer ?
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Kabine on January 03, 2011, 01:46:22 AM
The use of a sonicator bath is I think the professional method for cleaning carbs with suitable cleaner fluid. It should also remove the deposits from the jets. You can pick one up pretty inexpensively second hand and some have built in heaters. A number of carb specialists offer this service.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 03, 2011, 09:35:24 AM
Jackie. This is what the debate is about, trying to find the "correct stuff". I have tried all the carb cleaners on the market and they dont work for removing this hard glaze. Petrol and Jizer certainly dont. Kabine is right when he talks about ultrasonic cleaning baths, this does work but is costly to have done professionally and when one has a limited need for this job its hard to justify buying the equipement for occoasional use. You know what us bubblers are like, always looking for a cheap solution. Although the vinegar didnt work there was no evidence that it etched anything although I didnt put needle, slide etc in the pot. What we need is a communal sonic bath that we can all chip in for and all use.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: richard on January 03, 2011, 11:47:13 AM
in my last post i did say i was FRIENDLY . but bob !! any talk of a communal bath is far too early . i feel i hardly know you  ;D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Chris Thomas on January 03, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
Dear Bob

I am told by somebody who renovates Aston Martins that the outside of zinc based charburetors should be bead blasted with either crushed almond shells or plastic beads to remove the resin deposits on the surface. Soda ash blasting or Cyrogenic cleaning with carbon dioxide are other option but they are expensive.

The inside should be cleaned with coastic soda to clean out the resin deposits from the internal bits. Like acid it will disolve the zinc away if you use it too strong, hot and for too long. You need gloves and a respirator so be careful. Small items like jets can be cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner. I recently bought a small one in Aldi for £14 like you see on ebay for £30. But they are not big enough to get a complete cerb in them.

We can blame the good old EEC for all the proprietry cleaners for not working as most of the chemicals that were in the old products are now banned.

I hope that this information has been of assistance

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 03, 2011, 12:48:51 PM
Richard, I thought having had the shared experience of the gruelling journey to Story together would qualify me as a close friend!? After all I know secrets about you, for instance the fact that your cooling shroud exploded all over the M25! The fact that you arrive for the ferry just as the gang plank is going up! Not to mention the eating of biccies on the autobarn! Bringing the convoy to a stand still after catching your blinker switch in a jammy dodger etc! What a shame we cant do it all over again! But on reflection, I still wouldn't want to share a bath with you!

Chris. Thanks for the research. I have heard of the blast cleaning of the outside of carbs before, its something the concourse boys like to do and why not. The thought did cross my mind that caustic would remove the gum but I thought it would be more destructive than vinegar acid. Years ago I left a compass in a bucket of caustic over night to remove the paint, when I took it out the next day half the parts were missing! I didn't realise that some of the parts were made of aluminium and they had completely disolved away! I think it would be a good idea to boil up the brass jets in caustic but I wouldn't put an alloy carb body anywhere near caustic myself unless they mean targeting small areas like passage ways with it for a short time. I guess one could use a syringe making sure it doesnt get on important surfaces like the slide throat and other parts where a tolerance is crucial. I can understand why your sonic cleaner is not big enough to take a cerb, especially granite one? Ho Ho  :D :D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: g-o-g-g-o on January 03, 2011, 01:14:35 PM
Hi Bob
          I have cleaned a carb that was soaked in vinegar, and it etched the outside of the carb - that was no problem to me - but it did destroy the steel parts of the carb like the needle and the accelerator pump spring, I tried for 2 hours to get the destroyed spring out of the brass tube but I had to give up and place a new accelerator pump tube together with a new needle, you are right the deposits in the jets vinegar did not clean.
   When I am cleaning a carb I strip it all down then wash all of the parts in petrol and then use an air line to blow all of the deposits away - Most carbs have anodised outsides so it's no use cleaning them, the inside parts like the piston- I wash them with petrol and then polish them ( usually with solvol autosol ) clean them again to wash the cleaner off and then reassemble the carb - and it's like a new carb.
   I feel you are using the cheap option rather than doing a proper job on the carb.

 I am an engineer so I do the job properly - and it is usually quicker than your "Quick Options"
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 03, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
Hi .  We would be a bit worried and surprised if you didn't do the job properly Mike! My original reason for starting the thread was to find out if anyone has found something that will dissolve stale fuel gum, the sort of stuff deposited in a carb when left with petrol in it for about ten or twenty years. We all start by flushing with petrol and blowing through with air but as you confirmed, this doesn't shift the gum.  Can you as an engineer recommend something that will do this? I know you can poke something through them like I did or is that what you do too? [ I have ordered a new jet to be on the safe side]  The fact is Mike, I dont have a method be it quick or slow and am just trying out thing people suggest in the hope of learning something. For instance you mentioned polishing the piston slide, that's something I haven't tried before, whats the reasoning behind it or is that a trade secret?
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: g-o-g-g-o on January 03, 2011, 04:43:35 PM
Hi Bob
          It's no trade secret it's just to make the piston more slippery and speed up the acceleration by a fraction of a second - I too have a set of tools to gently clean out the brass jets.
                                                                                                                                                                           Mike
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 03, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
Ah, that makes sense Mike because you tend to get those tram lines wear marks in the piston. I have noticed though that it doesnt happen so much with two strokes, I guess its because of the oil in the petrol continually lubricating the slide. I shall go polish my slide tonight and see if my Guzzi goes faster!
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: jackiep on January 03, 2011, 11:27:40 PM
Hi Bob & All ,
  The Caustic Soda sounds TOTALLY lethal , logic says if it needs a respirator & thick gloves , its not a job for the amateur no matter how good they are ( engineers excepted naturally ) .Certainly when Dad was replacing a clutch it fell to me to clean out the housing , first with Jizer using a smallish brush if needed  & then washed off with water ,  wiped off  carefully with with a rag -- just to get the worst off & then blown dry with the air line .Its amazing how much muck comes off .
               Is the sonic cleaner the same liquid used in sonic glasses cleaner? They are quite cheap & I 've got one if anyone wants it .I've no idea whats in the solution , but it does not damage  the  optical glass .
              I could not think of attempting cleaning something without considering the consequences of damage to the item .  Just not worth the risk .. Pay the expert !
                 Belated Happy Bubbling New Year All ... Jackie
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Big Al on January 04, 2011, 01:28:29 PM
Sonic cleaning is tops but if the jet is not demountable the bath size is an issue and the carb needs to go in. Cost against jobs but good tools are an investment.
The other methods are all a problem for one or other reasons. Caustic soda loves to dissolve aluminium and to a lesser extent brass. Great for clearing out radiators but you risk a leak. Jets, slides etc. have to be the correct size to be spot on designed performance. Thus polishing them is imperfect as you are increase the area of the hole just as a corrosive agent will. A solution to clean is therefore the next best answer but I do not know what it is. Polishing works but then the unit might be compromised. A favourite is worn Bing slides. They are not sealed from air and the increase of gap means the thing can move, wobble and set off an accelerator jet giving inconstant tick over and leak air into the mixture meaning perfect tuning can never be found. If money was no object the carb could be sleeved to stop this but to be honest a different carb is a cheaper and better option often as the Bing is pretty crap.
Of course often a different carb is not so obvious so the issue remains what is the best solvent to use to get the jets cleaned up. Till I know I will stick to immersion in diesel first as it softens and penetrates much of the muck. An airline fed with water, modified airgun, sort of amateur vapour clean works but some areas can be hard to get at and it is dangerous for eyes and digits as the water can create an embolism through the skin. Shiny carbs, well shiny does not mean working so I leave that to those who have that desire. I prefer a sheen of oil as it means no corrosion.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 04, 2011, 02:20:43 PM
I think this thread has been more or less exhausted now and the conclusions I have come to are much the same as what Al just said. Sonic baths appear to work, solvents on the market do not. Soaking in Vinegar or caustic more than likeley will erode the surfaces, best way to clear a jet if you have no access to a bath is poke something through it that is softer then the brass jet. Also learned that everyone has there own methods including polishing the slide which some are against because it is removing material from it, others like Mike recommend it and reports no ill effect, I guess because the amount removed is miniscule and you dont do it very often, besides you can always buy a new slide for most carbs. Hhhhm, interesting tread but still have not found the magic solvent!   Lets move on to another topic.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: AndrewG on January 04, 2011, 05:40:11 PM
 Lets move on to another topic.
Do we have to? - I was assuming the Finbar Saunders-esque discussion of communal sonic baths and polishing one's own slide was going to degenerate this topic into some really amusing filth.

Fnarr, fnarr.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: richard on January 04, 2011, 05:49:19 PM
funny enough it did !  ;) so much so i sent it by personal message to bob rather than the forum  ;D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Basket case on January 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
I'm new to all this so I fear that you cynical Pro's may shoot me down in flames.

I use cellulose thinners (soak for a couple of days and then clean with a toothbrush), followed by compressed air.

Machine Mart also do an alloy cleaner but it contains potassium acid and is quite harsh, so  that is my last resort for really stubborn gum
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Rob Dobie on January 04, 2011, 11:09:29 PM
I use cellulose thinners.

As Billy Bunter always exclaimed, "Crickey". ...... I remember using to use this in the middle 1960s when I had motorcycles and my first car. It certainly did clear all the glazing in the carbs.

Last year I got rid of my heated ultrasonic cleaner, 2.5 ltr tank, as I haven't any vehicles anymore. It used Sea Clean Concentrate (seaweed, coconut oil & fruit extracts) mixed with warm water. It even helped clean off rust.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Chris Thomas on January 07, 2011, 09:39:51 AM
Dear Bob

I have just seen on the interweb that on 13 Jan 2011 my favorite shop (ALDI) will be selling as a special offer item a 750ml Ultrasonic cleaner for £19.99. If you have not got one then now is your opportunity. These offers tend to repeat on an annual basis so you may have to wait a long time for the next special offer.

There are 4 stores within 5 miles of you so if one sells out you have a fair chance of still getting one.

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Big Al on January 07, 2011, 09:51:33 AM
The cheap version is to take a bath with the parts and a plugged in hair drier. Just sign over Thumper to me before you try it though! Hmm, £20 for a sonic cleaner. Trouble is that means HM Gov gets £3.33 dunnit? Prefer secondhand at £16!
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 07, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
I thought you didnt like Isettas , they were a load of rubbish, and now you want me to leave thumper to you in my will? Make up your mind Al!! :D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Big Al on January 08, 2011, 11:17:44 AM
It is kind of nice to remind oneself of the true horror that is an Isetta to encourage me to get my Heinkel out! Oh dear I think I might have started something here.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 08, 2011, 01:04:18 PM
Narrrr, we are all entitled to our own opinions on microcars, to be honest I still havent driven my Isetta enough to bond with it properly yet, the steering is still a slight issue and until I change the tyres and set the tracking accuratly as Terry Parkin says this is crucial I'm not totaly committed to keeping it. If I dont bond with it this summer I may be looking for something else. I have always been fond of Fiat 500's and also like JZR/BRA type cars [must be Guzzi powered though]. I like owning a collectors car or two but also must have a mico to seriously drive and that I'm happy driving. The Schmitt didnt fit the bill and if the Isetta doesnt I shall move on. Quite like Goggo coupes as well. 
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: marcus on January 08, 2011, 02:54:47 PM
JZR Morgan-style cars look great, but I have heard that they have vintage Morgan-style cramped space and a hard ride, not what you are after.

No, Bob, what you REALLY want to get..(.and take us for a ride in is this):


http://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/sales/three_wheeler/three_wheeler.html


Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 08, 2011, 03:12:53 PM
Yes, I heard about this, I am assuming it will cost £40,000 or something even more obsene! Even if I could afford it the fact that it will have a Harley Davidson motor on it is enough to make me run in the opposite direction, I loath the things !!! I loath the engines, the bikes, the riders, especially the midlife crisis types that assume that buying a chrome christmas tree makes them a motorcyclist! I have even met guys that say they bought one for nostalgia, the fact that they never owned one in there younger years leaves me scratching my head. Ship them all back to the good old USA and let them play hells angels over there instead. Rant over.

I'm only a tiddler like yourself so I dont think the cramped cockpit of a JZR/BRA would turn me off , in fact I am told the BRA cockpit is more roomy, could it be inspired by father Jack? [Big bra's!] And the hard ride? Have you driven a Schmitt? Hit a bump and I get thrown out of my seat, head touching the dome! Surely the ride must be sofetr than this! Besides, the diameter of the wheels alone must make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: richard on January 08, 2011, 03:20:32 PM
COULDNT AGREE WITH YOU LESS !! WONDERFUL ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL .  

LOVE MORGANS - ALWAYS HAVE . LOVE HARLEYS - ALWAYS HAVE , THAT LOVELY ENGINE , LOVELY SOUND( i once wound down the windows on the motorway and just listened to two harleys on full song for 10 minutes , i was in heaven

WHAT A COMBINATION !!

THE PRICE ? HANDMADE QUALITY AND NO DOUBT THE TRADITIONAL LOOONG WAITING LIST  MEANING A GOOD RESALE PRICE

WISH I HAD THE MONEY MY LIFE WOULD BE COMPLETE

BY THE WAY THIS SHOULD HAVE WARRANTED ANOTHER SUBJECT ON FORUM I THINK  ;D
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 08, 2011, 04:32:50 PM
Start another thread on this Richard. I'm sure others will have some views. Dont misunderstand me, I love Morgans and am pleased they are rebuilding a three wheeler but wish they had chosen a european engine.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: richard on January 08, 2011, 05:37:25 PM
can we put marcus' ad on as another topic - praps you could post again marcus

the engine is a true classic with a great heritage itself and of course has the classic morgan V twin configuration.

the ad shows left hand drive and would expect U.S.A to be a prime target - hence Harley for servicing and parts ?
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: marcus on January 08, 2011, 07:11:28 PM
I tend to agree with Bob about Harley-Attitude-Davidson, but I don't think Morgan have a lot of choice. H-Ds make a good sound as long you are not trying to sleep, record, fish, or do any other peaceful pursuits like listening to a Jumbo Jet taking off! Other than that H-Ds are inefficient and woefully out of date and it is only the image and nostalgia which keep them in business.

Dickie is right though, the US market is very important so that engine is possibly a good choice, people know it, have spares, and the right tools (sledge hammers?!) and skills that can service them However, in the 1930s Gwenda Stewart set the record for a Morgan 3 at 116 MPH, 1 mph more than the new lump can manage, and probably half its size and weight. In fact that just proves how dated those H-Ds are!

Dickie, I will re-post the link on its own thread. All you have to do if you want to post it (or any other site) somewhere else is to open the page/site wait until it is fully loaded and active, then copy the details showing in the address bar near the top of your screen, then open up the page where you want it and copy it to there.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Daniel Rodd on January 09, 2011, 04:41:38 PM
I believe the price for the new 3 wheeler is around £30,000.Not that bad considering a triking or similar isnt far off that new.
I think the main reason for the harley engine is to capture a similar sound to that of the original,plus the look and appearance of the engine itself.
I actually asked Charles Morgan myself when i did my work experience there why hasnt he remade the three wheeler,what with the big bucks asked for the originals and huge number of kit cars trying to replicate them,imagine how much interest there would be in a "real" one.
Apparently after news leaked out that they were to make it they had 2000 enquiries and 200 people have paid deposits,i wish it every success.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 09, 2011, 07:45:07 PM
A new built up turn key BRA cost £15,000.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: NickPoll on January 09, 2011, 08:28:40 PM
The JZR is poor quality when compared with a Triking. My next door neighbour has a Triking and I have a Morgan Super Sports JAP. Last year we did some work on a French blokes JZR and both decided we didn't want one. On the subject of Harley motor against Guzzi, I think the Harley was the right choice. You can also buy brand new JAP twins with 80 hp on tap, but they are expensive.  Nick.
Title: Re: Dont bother with the vinegar!
Post by: Bob Purton on January 09, 2011, 11:27:18 PM
Am I right in thinking that one cant buy a new Triking though?