RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: DrewS on January 05, 2011, 11:14:16 PM
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Hi Folks, I’m Andy, a new member to the RUMcars Forum. I have recently bought a late '63 tiger nosed KR200, achieving a lifelong ambition!!! ( Not many people my age can say they own their dream car... mind you most people my age lust after Ferraris and Zondas!!)
It will shortly be approaching the time when she will need to take the dreaded trip for an MOT :(. I am pondering where I could take it to be tested, just wondered if there are any schmitt owners out there who could offer advice?. I’ve had a look at the DVLA classifications for testing, and the schmitt appears to be in a bit of a grey area legislatively given that it could be type 3 (three wheelers under 500 weight), but could also fit into class 2 which is a motorcycle combination (being under 200cc) If it is classed as a combination, could I take it to a motorcycle test centre? :-\
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Hello and welcome! It might help if you tell us where you live because then someone might be able to recommend a local place. A nice thing about old 3 wheelers is that the MOT requirements are fairly simple, but it is helpful if the tester is familiar with bubbles and knows which rules do not apply.
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As far as I know it is a tricycle so a threewheeler and not a sidecar outfit. Class 3 MOT stations are getting thin on the ground. It pays to know the rules appropriate to the Schmitt as if they have not done one they can come up with totally inappropriate fails. If they have done one or the tester is an old hand then you should be OK and to be honest they tend to be about the simplest MOT you can have on a car. Do not get caught out on the V5 colour scam. The tester has to input the colour of the car. If it is different to that of the V5 then you get a fine!
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Hi Marcus/ Alan, Thanks for the messages. As luck would have it my dad used to drive a reliant robin and it appears the testing station he used to use is still going and does type 3's , and its only a 6 mile journey away! I live in Yorkshire by the way (sorry forgot to mention that!) Thanks for the heads up about the colour V5 issue Alan, I've checked mine and the details are correct, however the dome on my car (as it says in the footer of my messages is in need of some TLC) was cracked by a previous owner and has had its top section filled and painted white during what I call its 88.9% restoration!!! ( A feature I can assure you i will be addressing when i have the grand or so for a new one!!) will this cause an issue on the colour front? or do they go on the main colour of the car?
The last MOT was done under the previous owner, and suffice to say the tester cannot have seen may direct steering 3 wheel micros as he gave a pass with no issues. Suffice to say I soon found one on my first runs when I got it home!! The fact it was tram lining and all other the place. Investigation resulting in an absence of two small but important bits... namely track rod bushes!!! Have rectified it now though with some new ones from the club, and learned a lot about its basic but interesting steering set up!!. Wonder if anyone can advise me (Alan hopefully, with his vast knowledge of the breed) when out on the road there are odd occasions recently where she fails to engage fourth gear... I had heard that this is a common fault, but wondered what the fix was? I am going to have to strip it at some point as the main engine gasket is showing its age a little and there is a very small leak of gear oil when its at running temp. All the other gears are fine and engage beautifully, and its generally a nice car, other than some very small areas of bubbling on the tail section.
Lastly just wondered abut two other MOT issues re the schmitt, mine does not have a VIN plate, as with many I’ve inspected, is this a fail? Having read the rules it appears your fine if it was produced before 1980, and also how do two strokes fair under the modern "you cannot create any polution or emissions of any kind" culture? I'd hate to think of the readings they would get off most two strokes!! Cheers Andy.
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I might know a bit about Schmitts but I am not an expert on the engine. I still give mine to a bud to rebuild the crankcase then do the rest. Gears jumping is normally either poor or a need for re shimming or worn dogs or a bit of both. If the unit is being stripped then this can be looked into.
MOT, main colour is all that will be reported.
VIN plates can be bought I believe though the Hungarian forger had run out last I heard. The chassis number will be stamped below where the VIN plate was and on the engine frame. Gloss over that if the frame is a different number! They often are.
The pollution test is visual. A warm Sachs is not really very smoky. If it is and the smoke smells of sulphur the engine needs new crank seals.
Good luck with a new dome. I cannot afford them!
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Hi Alan, I am quite lucky in the fact that I have a mechanical oracle in the form of my grandad, he was a mechanic for 50 years, man and boy!!! and am learning from him. The fourth gear issue is a very recent thing and shes away for the winter so its a job for the better weather ! Ive only done about 35 miles since obtaining her. It is fitted with a Steni -kits electronic ignition system which I have to say is superb and easy to set up , it starts and runs better than my two year old fiat 500 daily runner!! I will have to take a look for the VIN and chassis number in the places you mention.
Im sure I will get there eventually with all the bits to sort, and as funds permit. I'm not to worried about the white dome, and it was very welcome on the hot summer days when I used it!! Having never actually been out on the open road in a KR until I got mine I was very suprised how well it kept up with the traffic (mind you I do live rurally!!) although I learned to my cost some of its drawbacks (no petrol gauge!!) getting carried away and running out... much to the local teenagers amusement!! " do you want a push mate"! and " aint messerschmitts planes" and "did you nick it from an aircraft museam" On the plus side it gains a lot of attention from the opposite sex... which is always a plus!!
Dont surpose you know of any schmitters in the Notts/ Yorks areas? I am struggling to meet other people with KR's locally for moral and mechanical support.
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When I got my first 3 wheeler, a Velorex, several MOT garages here in Beautiful Downtown Bermondsey, S.E. London which test Reliants and other single-front-wheelers said they could not do single-back-wheelers. Odd. Not sure if others have ever encountered that. Some KRs were assembled in Italy by Mivalino, and had white fibre-glass domes to keep the hot Italian sun off the occupants' heads, so yours just looks like one of them, of which there is one in the design Museum in London. There is another plus an Isetta in the science Museum, and a Trojan quite like mine in the Croydon Clocktower Museum, quite near where they were built.
Women certainly do respond well to bubble cars!
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funny they dont to Gordons ! wonder why ? ;D
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will this cause an issue on the colour front? or do they go on the main colour of the car?
Lastly just wondered abut two other MOT issues re the schmitt, mine does not have a VIN plate, as with many I’ve inspected, is this a fail? Having read the rules it appears your fine if it was produced before 1980, and also how do two strokes fair under the modern emissions
I can confirm it's main body colour only that they will look at, and that no VIN plate is required for anything pre 1980, but be in readyness to point the tester bloke to the actual number stamped on the car if prompted, He might ask to be shown it, he might not.
Two-strokes are exempt from any and all actual emmision testing, though you can pick up a fail if the smoke is oviusly blowing out of any joints in the exhaist system or the silencer itself....
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A strange analogy ! What difference does the layout of the single wheel make! suffice to say when I enquired at the MOT garage that I am going to get it done at, he did not seem phased and knew exactly what a schmitt was and said no problems! Mind you it’s a family firm and been dealing with 3 wheelers as a reliant agent since the early 60's. As for the Italian schmitts.. are you referring to http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/mivalino.html ?
I have seen quite few mi - vals on the net in the past with the tops you mention, although these rare KR's were based on the 175 rather than the 200 ,and fitted with a mivalino engine. I have to say I would covet one of those but as with the KR175 i don’t fancy the suspension set up much!! I rather like my retinas attached and my fillings remaining where they are!!!!!
Would say that you would be hard pressed to draw as much attention as in a bubble. Young and old love them! Will never forget the day, whilst stopped at some lights, an old lady pulled alongside on the pavement on a mobility scooter (and being far higher and looking down on the me in the schmitt) announcing " I haven’t seen one of them in years" and then pulling away alongside at the same time.... I'm sure I will be explaining it to a psychologist in 20 years time!!
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As far as I know they introduced the opaque domes later on in KR 200
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If any Class 3 testing station tell you they cannot test a certain three-wheeler, either due to its size, or to its wheelplan, or any other reason, be awere they are basicaly bovine-poohing you. (Yes I feel strong enough about it to swear, having been there & got all the crap!) If they are Class 3, they are under obligation to test ANY three-wheeler presented to them. If they come the the old excuse of the car "not fitting their equipment", this is usuly becuse the tester wants an easy life using the machine that only requires him to press a few buttons & read the print-out, rather than getting out the manual hand-held equiptment & rolling around on the floor with the car trying to remember how to work it for items such as lighting aim & brake testing etc. Technically, you should stand your ground & insist the bolshy tester gets on with it the hard way as it says in the rule book rather than sending you away, but of course this does nothing for your pass posibilities as straightaway you have a tester who hates your guts.
My reason for going off on one with MoT testers?, They'd fall over themselves to test a Peel P50, but they woudn't test my Mini-Comtesse, thus costing me the roadrun at the Aquatic National! >:(
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Wouldnt test a Mini Comtesse? you could have tried their tactic... and said it was a Peel P50 "like one of them off top gear"! Have you tried getting the Bamby tested? maybe you could call their bluff on it! as when I tried to obtain one ( and lost out) and showed the folks at work, they were fully convinced it was a P50!!
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It is true that a good relationship with an tester is something good to work for, and I avoid anyone who is not reasonably willing and keen. When they know you and trust you they will sometimes allow you a pass on something border-line and ask you to sort it out soon. It's is not worth dealing with the awkward ones.
As for 2 stroke / classic car exhaust, the general rule is that your car should not be noticeably smokier than other cars of its type, and this is another area where it pays to have a good tester who is familiar with roughly what they are like, and knows that they tend to be a bit smokier than modern cars.
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When I got my first 3 wheeler, a Velorex, several MOT garages here in Beautiful Downtown Bermondsey, S.E. London which test Reliants and other single-front-wheelers said they could not do single-back-wheelers. Odd. Not sure if others have ever encountered that. Some KRs were assembled in Italy by Mivalino, and had white fibre-glass domes to keep the hot Italian sun off the occupants' heads, so yours just looks like one of them, of which there is one in the design Museum in London. There is another plus an Isetta in the science Museum, and a Trojan quite like mine in the Croydon Clocktower Museum, quite near where they were built.
Women certainly do respond well to bubble cars!
I sorted out Chris Cootes car for the Science Museum. They also have other microcars but not displayed which is a bit sad. I found the best Micro I had for the ladies was the Goggo as it was a baby car but reasonably civilised. The Schmitt is antisicial and once the novelty has warn off they tend not to be so keen as you cannot be nagged effciently.
A class 3 station has equipment to do the tests. I suspect they did not want the hassle. This happens with inbetweenies like French Fridges all the time.
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Dont surpose you know of any schmitters in the Notts/ Yorks areas? I am struggling to meet other people with KR's locally for moral and mechanical support.
There is a meeting near Mansfield I believe - Glynn, Andy Carter and Colin Burton used to be prime attendees as far as I could make out. Check out KaRoScene at www.messerschmittclub.co.uk as details should be present.
You are in prime Micromaniacs territory so worth joining this bunch of nutters.
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When I got my first 3 wheeler, a Velorex, several MOT garages here in Beautiful Downtown Bermondsey, S.E. London which test Reliants and other single-front-wheelers said they could not do single-back-wheelers. Odd. Not sure if others have ever encountered that. Some KRs were assembled in Italy by Mivalino, and had white fibre-glass domes to keep the hot Italian sun off the occupants' heads, so yours just looks like one of them, of which there is one in the design Museum in London. There is another plus an Isetta in the science Museum, and a Trojan quite like mine in the Croydon Clocktower Museum, quite near where they were built.
Women certainly do respond well to bubble cars!
I sorted out Chris Cootes car for the Science Museum. They also have other microcars but not displayed which is a bit sad. I found the best Micro I had for the ladies was the Goggo as it was a baby car but reasonably civilised. The Schmitt is antisicial and once the novelty has warn off they tend not to be so keen as you cannot be nagged effciently.
A class 3 station has equipment to do the tests. I suspect they did not want the hassle. This happens with inbetweenies like French Fridges all the time.
Interesting. Are you taliking about the black KR in THE science museum? I thought all exhibits were owned by them?
As for antisocial I think all micros are! At least for the general public. The KR does smoke up a bit when caught in traffic (as in following Ollie to the Schmitt Nat). Just a thought. I reckon a 50's two stroke kicks out more filth that a fleet of new 5 ltr four wheel drives. Apparantly it's not very easy to do your self in, in a new motor.
Emmisions are so clean that sitting in one with open windows idling in a closed garage don't work!
Try that in a Scootacar and I reckon you have 5 minutes!! Now they really puff and it gets not much better hot. Peels smoke too.
Ho hum!
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Just a thought. I reckon a 50's two stroke kicks out more filth that a fleet of new 5 ltr four wheel drives. Apparantly it's not very easy to do your self in, in a new motor.
Emmisions are so clean that sitting in one with open windows idling in a closed garage don't work!
Depends how airtight the garage is as the oxygen will get depleted at a rate. Mind you you would be skint due to fuel cost after the attempt and have to sell a kidney. Are we expecting mass suicides on rare microcar prices falling? Interesting. Which is the best car for the job? A nurgled Treinkel chucks it out a bit but the 16 to one strokers can compete. Perhaps a very cold freshly imported Trabbi on 82 octane and old engine oil for two stroke takes the prize.
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Nothing beats a Velorex!
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Thanks for the contacts there Alan, tried to contact Colin Burton in the past and didnt get a responce to my email. Been to many a micro maniacs show at holme on spalding moor! Death my bubblecar? I'm sure that would at least make the very bottom story on the Yahoo news front page!! I would say a Barkas two stroke van having seen one in action a few years ago!! higher volume of vehicle to fill the garage = less oxgen to deplete = faster trip to the big workshop in the sky!!!
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Hi DrewS
I have responed to your email, reply dated Fri 11/06/2010 19:29 my reply sent items folder I will send it again!
Reguarding the VIN plate on some of the later KR200's 1961 onwards no VIN plates were fitted I have photographs of three KR200's Two 1961's and a 1963 all of which have had no VIN plate fitted, the holes are there in the inner wing but no plate.
The plate could not have come adrift as on one of the KR200's has only done 47 miles.
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Well 'tis off to my MOT man on Sat morning with a Schmitt. That one is sold. That means it will rain. I have the next road car in the wings so I should be on the road, 'schmitting for Feb. Hopefully that will get the car settled down for the season. Certainly want a good one running for Schmitting in Cumbria. It will take on post office and shopping duties which should save a few quid in fuel as ordinary cars take some time to warm up and my favoured facilities are an annoying inefficient 6 miles round trip.
A shake up of transport is needed as it looks like building of my house will start this year so I really need a van or pick up for that. I do not really want to run two moderns as the cost is so high now so I am looking at a few options in the collectors car area to take up the longer distance runs on economy since while a Schmitt can do it I feel far less safe in them than I did 20 years ago. To many drivers are not concentrating on what they are doing and overall mass and speed has increased. So ideally it needs to be nippy or have some metal on it to keep the buggers away.
Out of the collection I quite fancy getting the Norsjka going but that depends on the above and a possible left field unique car I am to view. However I can find out if the MOT station will do it as I am not sure which category it will be.
With fuel going up Microcars start to look like a good investment again. Time to get them into use as they should be.
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Have to agree with you Alan, Schmitt useage isn't a viable option for every day use these days, even if you live in central London.... there are to many kamikaze motorists on the roads these days!! Driving standards have gone through the floor these last few years! and its now what I call "last of the late brakers!!" Driving a schmitt these days is still better than riding a scooter though... as they were in there day. How about an old Fiat 500 as a more regular runabout? one with a 126 engine and syncro box?
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I still drive my Trojan around Central London and it generally keeps up pretty well with the flow. However, because so many motorists ignore all laws and rules of the road, and drive at whatever speed they think they have a "right" to, Speed Limits are now completely disregarded. So speed humps are being put on more and more roads, and some of these are pretty savage to anyone in a mini or micr car. In fact it is only huge wide Executive cars and 4WD which can really deal with speed humps comfortably, so increasing numbers of drivers feel justified in up-scaling their car, and the manufacturers are only too happy to oblige.
Back in the days of Minis, Bubble Cars, Austin A 30s, Morris Minors etc 60 mph was more-or-less top speed, and the lack of seat belts, Anti-Lock Brakes, Air Bags, Impact Absorbing zones, modest roadholding and acceleration people were not able to drive like maniacs down crowded urban streets, and did not feel safe when going flat out, especially as the steering started getting light and vague!
I have long felt that a return to light, compact and simple cars with much more modest levels of power and dynamic ability is LONG overdue.
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How about an old Fiat 500 as a more regular runabout? one with a 126 engine and syncro box?
Looking for something I have not yet experienced living with - done 500, 126, CC Zero and Bianchina as road cars already, I have a cracking 126 for sale. For me they are all flawed for a few reasons. Not least as I am a big bloke and not Italian shaped. I would put a NSU Prinz at the top of the sensible pile. Rust free there is little to fault them on. I want serious economy and serious eccentricity if I can get it though. Failing that common spares saves cash and I know Schmitts work out here. The issue is being seen so I guess lighting with LED units etc would be in order so as not to lean on the dynostarter. We will see how things pan out. The viable alternative is a source of fuel cheap that the diesel will burn without the pump failing. This is more sensible probably. Is there a sensible twist and go 250cc diesel unit that would go in a trike?
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An intresting turn-up for the books now for Oxfordshire three wheelers as I recent recived a few flyers from a new garage just started up in Yarnton, Kidlington, a few miles up the road from me which proudly states they are class 3 testers & will happily test ANY three wheeler presented. Hmmm, sounds like a challenge, and typicaly coming just after I've sold the Comtesse!
Anyway, for anyone who's intrested, the details are:
Yarnton Garage Ltd
Bosch Car Service Centre
Unit 27 Chancerygate Business Centre
Langford Lane, Kidlington
Oxfordshire OX5 1FQ
Tel: 01865-374487
Fax: 01865-848657
Email: yarntongarage@boschauto.co.uk
Web: yarntongarage.boschauto.co.uk
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What was that? MOTs from Chancygate? Oh I miss read.