RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on September 26, 2011, 07:56:13 PM
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just wont go away will it - this article summer 1957 AUSTRALIAN MAGAZINE ! DISCUSS
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sorry page 2 has the avolette, belcar,tourette para
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Dear Richard
Great find, especially the pictures of more men standing on a small car.
Chris Thomas
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not new chris we've seen this one before. he made at least three such photos with three different models. but not AS FAR AS I KNOW with a tourette ! ;D
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I have never seen this before, the journalist has got it wrong! It was probably Jeremy Clarksons grandfather!! The Tourette was not a Brutch design and was certainly not built under license! Designed by Mr Merkelt in 1946 long before Egon Brutch was designing his cars. First built with aluminium body on an ash frame and before fiberglass was in common use.
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Maybe it was the other way round and EB saw the Tourette. Another reason it is not a Brutch is that it works as a car rather than a kind of successful scaffolding infrastucture which would probably win the Turner prize now. Mmmm Turner cars.
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Sorry to interrupt this thread!!! I have just joined the Forum and can't see how to start a new thread. Help!
Maurice
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Hi Maurice. Start at the Home page. Select the category ie, Announcements, unusual microcars discussion etc. click on that and then on the right you will see a box to click that says new topic, that's the one you want. Cheers, Bob
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4783067620_bb2cc77f8b_z.jpg)
From LD's flickr
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bob i do agree with you and dont see much similarity between the two BUT my point is that at the time , 1957 , both designers were still around yet these articles were being published then . i had thought that only modern man had invented a link .
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anyway as to long before herr bruetsch was designing . his first car in "deutsch kleinwagen" is 1950 . the tourette arrived in 1956 some time after bruetsch's egg shaped designs were first seen in 1954. i am only stirring it up a bit , but nothing is quite as clear as it could be .
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I have never seen this before, the journalist has got it wrong! It was probably Jeremy Clarksons grandfather!! The Tourette was not a Brutsch design and was certainly not built under license! Designed by Mr Merkelt in 1946 long before Egon Brutsch was designing his cars. First built with aluminium body on an ash frame and before fiberglass was in common use.
Thank you Bob, I was wondering who linked the Tourette to the Brutsch, Mrs. Merkelt would be turning in her grave. When I met her in the 1980's she gave me a severe ticking off for suggesting that the Tourette had probably been inspired by Brutsch in an article I wrote in RCN16. She showed me some sketches her late husband had made of his proposed car in 1946. Sadly, although she gave me a lot Tourette related stuff for the RUM CAR archives when we bought her car those sketches were not amongst them. Jean
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These other pictures that I found on another board were said to have inspired the Brutsch one. (Said by me today that is :))
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hi jean
always nice to have your input .with all respect to both yourself and mrs. merkelt she could be wrong or half right anyway .
it would seem possible :
1. that mr. merkelt drew up a design in , let us say 1946 for arguments sake , he did as far as we know nothing with this design .
2. possibly by 1956 or so mr. m was thinking that fibreglass was more feasible than an aluminium / ash frame design
3. he would have been aware of bruetsches designs - they were well publicised - this bruetsch was better at than producing cars
4. he may have even met egon bruetsch when he toured britain in 1954or 55 ( anyhow at least a year or so before the later bruetsch designs were shown oct 1956 motorcycle show at earls court )
all the above is POSSIBLE it seems and , i have said with respect , it is just possible that mrs. merkelt may have not KNOWN the facts but did not like her husband accused of plagiarism or suchlike
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love to know where those pics from rusty
GUESS WHAT you make my point about earlier designs by bruetsch the first pic shows men standing on GUESS WHAT ???
A BRUETSCH 1200 OF 1954
the other photo if from the same source may be his entire workforce . seen that wermacht forage cap before ;)
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Anything is possible Dickie but what flies in the face of all know Carr brothers Purley history is the suggestion that it was a Brutch design built under license. Personally I would rather believe the wife of the designer than a fanatical brutch fan upstart from oooop north! ;D ;D ;D Sorry Richard, we love you really! Its another case of because something appears in print it passes into folk law like Schmitts being made from left over WW2 109 parts. Its no more related to Brutch than a Bouffort Peardrop. Carefull you dont choke on the bone! ;D
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just teasing you bob as you well know ! anyway it's quite possible that mrs m didn't actually know what mr.m had been up too ! shock horror , it even happens these days i believe . if our wives knew exactly what we were up to i suspect between us there might be just a few less cars :o :o :o
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love to know where those pics from rusty
GUESS WHAT you make my point about earlier designs by bruetsch the first pic shows men standing on GUESS WHAT ???
A BRUETSCH 1200 OF 1954
the other photo if from the same source may be his entire workforce . seen that wermacht forage cap before ;)
You have a good resolution scanner!
Here is the same pic cropped and resized so you can all see it ool.
You're not the only one, my scanner also makes the pics too big...
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These other pictures that I found on another board were said to have inspired the Brutsch one. (Said by me today that is :))
Is the bottom picture an early Tata with family seating?
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egon bruetsch on tour - talk about a travelling salesman !
and one for bob - bless his little cotton socks ( jonathan note the cut and paste technology )
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Thats a great pic Richard, where did you find it? Do tell more!
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it was part of article in one of the monthlys a few years ago . i will post a bit more when i have time
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it was part of article in one of the monthlys a few years ago . i will post a bit more when i have time
My dad barely knows how to c/p ;)
Love these pics http://donald.over-blog.com/article-19361927.html
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please post that link as a seperate topic . FANTASTIC photos of avolettes and many other french cars . never heard of many of them and it will take time to investigate the site - others may be interested ;)
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on the tourette front accepting that all that has been written may not be correct . i have from one source the car as 197cc , four speed with reverse option ( a la gordon ), plastic bodied @ £299 or an all alloy on ash frame body @ £325. do we know if the ash frame was just the prototype ? did any sell ? and how many of the hardtops were sold and do any survive. i have pictures of two different cars with hardtops - incidentally hinged forward like the bruetsch avolette and pfeil.
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Has anyone ever seen an ali over ash one? They seem to be GRP to me, though the buck would more than likely be wood.
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I suggest that the photo doesn't show an ash-framed ali-panneled body, but the wooden buck over which the panel beater (or wheeling machine operator) made and tested the ali panels of a prototype. The heaviness of the framing makes it look like a buck - a non-micro power plant would be required to drag that much timber around....
Back then using aluminium to make a prototype body from which a fibreglass mould could be taken was fairly usual - after all, the panel beating skills were readily available, albeit expensive even then.
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looks far too permanent a job to me. anyway you haven't addressed the published price issue. it must have been offerred , or originally mooted anyway .
there looks to be a fairly comprehensive write up in kleinwagen international - but i cant understand german :'(
actually the caption says its a body buck after all that , but the above still stands
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this guy seems very knowledgable if not very pleasant man in some regards but just seen his comments re bruetsch/ tourette licence - it seems the british press , the australian press and even a german commentator can all make the same mistake . i am away for the next few days so wont be able to read bobs reply till saturday . my ears will be burning ;)
http://www.germanmotorcycles.cl/Brutsch/brutschcoments.html
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Hi Richard. I will post now and you can read on your return. I spoke to Gerry Frederics some time ago about this, he admitted he had been mislead on many Brutch matters and that his article was full of errors. He even spoke to Jean about the Tourette thing, she put him right and the last thing I heard from him was that he was trying to contact his webmaster to get the article changed with little success! As you indicated, come the revolution you wouldnt want to be on the wrong side of this guy! :(
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i haven't gone yet . interesting , thanks for the update - but he must have been (mis) informed by someone who thought it may be true - it might have been me :D
on the other topic of post-war germany and TG/TGR etc. he makes some outrageous comments !!
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His Goggo item is similarly slightly off target. He fails to understand that Hans Glas was thinking ahead much of the time and predicted market drops before they hit production and profitability. The whole point of his attaching Glas to BMW was that he could see that the future required ever more R and D on new cars which a small manufacturer was not going to be able to afford. BMW had the volume and his firm had the skills so it made sense to retire his family to the board of directors of BMW in a marriage. There remain Glas family members in BMW today. It was success, but of profitability and sustainability over going bust with a magnificent failure like so many other small manufacturers. BMW remain independent so I suggests his legacy matches that of his piers in BMW. No failure here, just compromise.
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looks far too permanent a job to me. anyway you haven't addressed the published price issue. it must have been offerred , or originally mooted anyway .
there looks to be a fairly comprehensive write up in kleinwagen international - but i cant understand german :'(
actually the caption says its a body buck after all that , but the above still stands
I just checked my literature and the Tourette was in 1956 offered for £299 in fiber glass and for £325 in ali on ash frame. I have the spec sheet for 1957, it says and I quote "Bodywork is now ONLY in moulded plastic polyester with laminated re-inforcement" so its certain the ali body was offered but as to whether any were actually sold we will never know. Colours from stock were Ivory, carnation red or cornflower blue, I was recently involved in helping the Hammonds get there body shell repaired and can confirm that the colour was a pigment within the resin. This explains why the colour was rather patchy, it had been repaired in several places after the Merkelts son had rolled it, what we were seeing was areas or coloured gelcoat and patches of once matching paintwork that had been blown in. I assume the other colours offered were also in the gelcoat.
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looks far too permanent a job to me. anyway you haven't addressed the published price issue. it must have been offerred , or originally mooted anyway .
there looks to be a fairly comprehensive write up in kleinwagen international - but i cant understand german :'(
actually the caption says its a body buck after all that , but the above still stands
I just checked my literature and the Tourette was in 1956 offered for £299 in fiber glass and for £325 in ali on ash frame. I have the spec sheet for 1957, it says and I quote "Bodywork is now ONLY in moulded plastic polyester with laminated re-inforcement" so its certain the ali body was offered but as to whether any were actually sold we will never know. Colours from stock were Ivory, carnation red or cornflower blue, I was recently involved in helping the Hammonds get there body shell repaired and can confirm that the colour was a pigment within the resin. This explains why the colour was rather patchy, it had been repaired in several places after the Merkelts son had rolled it, what we were seeing was areas or coloured gelcoat and patches of once matching paintwork that had been blown in. I assume the other colours offered were also in the gelcoat.
I thought they were all ali!
Dont like colopured gel coat as much, since it fades a lot, and also cracks even more than painted!
Thats the good thing with Nobels, there painted ;)
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All colour gel coated bodies end up being painted anyway so whats the difference?
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Try telling Smarties that! (Not sure if Smarties are international. Like a small multicoloured Minstrels sweets).
Might be that they are Bruetsch's as well as it is that beany bollide shape coming in again and it is now proven that anything that shape must be a/ German engineered, b/ Bruetsch if you can stand on it. By the way, if Germany is so great why is he living in Australia?
Then again I like the idea of buying candy coated Roundtree Bruetchs. Along with Jelly Bambys, Bond's eyes, Castrol flavoured gobstoppers and KaRoMac bars.
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Caramac bars? Now you are showing your age! You will be talking about Spangles and Jamboree bags next! :D
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I like Hundreds and Thousands. You can get loads in your gob. ;D
Now, to show that I'm a pig. I had a bet in the 1990s with my mates at the Post Office that I couldn't get a whole peeled banana in my mouth. I did, sideways but found I couldn't chew it. Great fun getting it out again! We also had a whip-round when someone said he could eat a raw egg. He had to eat it whole with the shell on. The expression on his face when it burst was a delight. ;D
So that takes us back from egg to Bruetsch - Tourette.
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All colour gel coated bodies end up being painted anyway so whats the difference?
Oh, I thought they were left in there pure gelcoat, I didnt realise they were painted! I thought Peels werent painted, thats why original ones usually look horrible! (usually)
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Caramac bars? Now you are showing your age! You will be talking about Spangles and Jamboree bags next! :D
Pity the poor Spangle, it went all health conscious and became Menthol cough sweets, loosing its name in the process. I was chucked out of the Scouts so was not allowed Jamboree bags! Or shorts for that matter! I raise you Barley twists.
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I'll see your Barley twists and raise you clove balls! [one didnt get Jamboree bags from the scouts , you bought them from the sweet shop]
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Sweet shop! You were lucky to have a sweet shop. We had to get our sweets off the local peado while pretending to be shrunken old men etc etc.
Clove balls, Victory V, Fisherman's Friend. Are these sweets or are they some sort of confectioners torture. Never had clove balls but judging by the cloved oranges in the airing cupboard to keep the moths out it sounds rather nasty.
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Are well, one of the benifits of growing up in prosperous Upminster Essex! How about Army and Navy sweets, blackish purple lonzenge shapes things. I loved them but as people say when they see us out in our cars "I havnt seen one of those for ages" Its only a matter of time before we get around to mentioning Tunnocks tea cakes again! :D
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And look what I got for Christmas!
Liquorice wood - yum yum!!!
Victory Vs - Not as strong as I remember them.
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Just back from Greenwich, got some nice photos of the nearly completed Cutty Sark, looking better than ever, with men up in the masts installing the rigging....
....and....
....a big bag of Army and Navy sweets from a proper JAR in a proper Sweet Shop. PROPER sweets is them A&N!
I used to like Spangles, and better still were Old English Spangles.
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Yep, setting light to the Cutty Sark to claim on the insurance and a quick whip round for un nailed down State and saps bunts was a smart move to get it done up properly once it was realised the keel was as rotten as a pear. Still not sure why we are paying Millions to restore ships not to use, Mary Rose, Britannia, etc. when we have a load of usable boats needing cash and are a maritime nation. I blame that blasted tunnel and its associated vision.......
Now a restoration like Shamrock 4, the J class racing yacht, I can go along with. We saw it going round the Isle of Wight off Ventnor. Alive and impressive. This leads me to one of the best thing I think I have experienced. A sub J class we saw under full canvas in front of the butterfly colours of the main Tobermory Week racing fleet following. It rounding Ardnamurchan Point in the far distance, running hard passed Mallaig into the Sound of Sleat beneath the backdrop of the ever brooding Cullen boiling ever ominiously with a flashing norse saga of a black thunderstorm of hail. The speed it maintained under a spinnaker was incredible as was the angle of heel it took on gaining the Sound's off shore cold downdraft. The boat's only chance to beat the racing handicapper was to outpace the impending storm. We cheered it passed on its way to shoot the Kyle of Lochalsh having, by about 10 minutes, beaten the terrific squall that fell off the mountains of Skye obliterating vision in a force 8 blast and in which we got a right going over. You cannot really buy an experience like that. Made you proud to be of an island race and tough enough to be out in the conditions, as everyone else would be running and hiding. Better than any fake ship in a bottle I think. You cannot beat a machine working to the maximum in its element, like a fully loaded up steam locomotive in sub freezing temperatures, old racing car being driven on the limit, just hardly anyone does any more. Health and safety, might get broken etc etc. or you pay for the privalage to see it.
Liquorice wood, fantastic. Don't mention lozenges again! Must be an old recipe as the RAF had not been invented I guess. Not into those jobbies either. Sounds like there needs to be a RUM run to a real Sweet Shop.
Can you get Cocker Spangles?
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Have you just swallowed a book on maritime poetry? :D Sounds like a wonderfull sight though.
I would still have my taxes spent on the Cutty Sark than on Olymipics!! Greenwich is a great place, the naval college, observatory, Maritime museum and just wouldnt be the same without the Cutty Sark.
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Oh, I definitely go along with you there Bob. Wasting money on a permanent historical item is one thing, and debatable. Misappropriating tax payers money on an expensive white elephant using only certain persons paint is entirely another.
Otherwise I am bored, and cold if I do anything useful, so the grey matter is jogging.
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Great bit of Sea Writing there Al! Before they built the Dordfart Bridge the Tall Ships Race used to start in That London, and I regularly headed over to Tower Bridge to see the magnificent sight of the great ships, with masts and rigging adorned with flags and bunting. I saw the last one, and there was a fly-past, the last pre-restoration flight of the Fleet Air Arm's Fairey Swordfish, my Dad's old bus, and this was the only air-worthy one in the world. The was a strong wind blowing downstream which the Stringbag was battling against, and white horses on the Thames. I was on Tower Bridge directly under the plane, and it was making about 3-5 knots at most, so a great lingering view. Dad's FAA Pilot, a certain Laurence Olivier (later Lord Olivier) was totally beyond discipline and was always getting grounded, he used to love vertical take-offs and landings in the Stringbag, and once flew the whole length of the runway backwards.
Here are my photos of the Cutty Sark:
http://s581.photobucket.com/albums/ss260/Captain_Bubble/Greenwich%20Cutty%20Sark%20resto%202%202%202012/
Sorry about the thread hijack Mike!
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Being there is the thing. I am looking forward to seeing the restored MTB boat powered by Merlins. But will they give it some beans?
Being present when the Saab Viggan was being displayed at Farnborough against the American equivalent, forget what that was, F16? The USA went first. Low display due to cloud and at the end the pilot spun the plane in a vertical climb through the cloud punching a small blue hole. Impressive. The Saab pilot went nuts on his display and ended up doing the same trick with the cloud. OK we've seen that. Seems he did a loop and suddenly appeared back through the hole and managed to pull the thing up with feet to spare. Fork and knife! Sadly despite his best efforts the Dutch etc bought the USA offering. Yet Concord stole the show as it was displayed at the height of humidity and pulled vortices and pressure waves of condensation out of the air in a superbly flown display by Trubshaw. Truly a beautiful machine and I still cannot believe it and the associated technology is now scrapped without a replacement. Do we march backwards?
The Stringbag was what was called a firm weapons base. Also could do what a helicopter could in a good breeze. So eccentrically out of date it was a success, where as the just out of date Battle was pretty much a useless death trap.
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Good news, I have finally made contact with Paul Merkelt, son of Albert Merkelt who designed the Tourette. He has come up with some interesting information but importantly just to put to bed what has been an issue much debated on this thread, if it was a Brutsch design built under license or not, I quote part of the last email I received from Paul "Thanks for your message. With regard to your queries as to the history of the tourette, this vehicle was designed and produced in the Uk. My mother was correct in this respect. It was a British product and was not produced under licence from any German company." I asked about what his mother said re the shape being sketched out in the 1940s but Paul was too young to remember anything about that, so whether the shape was influenced by 1950s European designs we will never know. Paul also sheds light on the early stories of it being a tipper! Apparently, Albert originally designed the car to have two motorcycle coil over shocks on the front for each side instead of just one, this must have looked weird! In this form it handled very well but when it went into production to save money and against Mr Merkelts advice only one each side was used and as a result the car was rather skittish! Its great to be in contact with Paul and I hope to glean more from him. Watch this space.