RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: rcvincent on May 30, 2012, 09:04:57 PM
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Hi - I would like to know if anyone knows where in the USA that I can see and possibly purchase one of the new velorex cars. they look really neat. The only websites that I found that had them pictured were written in a language that I couldn't read. In fact some of the words couldn't by translated by my computer. Also, (not on topic) whats with the classified section on this forum? It just seems to me that a micro car forum would be an excellent place to see all kinds of cars currently for sale all the time. But, sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.
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Hello and welcome. I doubt if the new Velorex is on sale in USA, but there are several Americans on this forum who might know better than me, and one is bound to be along soon.
There are two sections here for ads, RumCar Mart where people can post about things they want to sell or buy, and Sales & Auctions where people can post details of ads they have spotted, to advise any interested members. It seems to work pretty well!
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great to be criticised by a newbie :D makes a change from us doing it ourselves :D :D
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whats with the classified section on this forum? It just seems to me that a micro car forum would be an excellent place to see all kinds of cars currently for sale all the time. But, sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.
The Forum is run for RUMCARS, that is the Register of Unusual Microcars. RUMCars was established in 1980 to cater for the growing number of microcar enthusiasts whose vehicles were not eligible for membership of any of the existing one-make clubs or registers. The general definition of microcars as economy vehicles with either three or four wheels, powered by petrol engines of no more than 700cc or battery electric propulsion, and manufactured since 1945 was adopted, but this can be varied if justified by vehicle interest The Register is not a commercial enterprise. It exists purely to maintain records of the existence of these rare little machines and to encourage their preservation and restoration. A comprehensive archive includes original sales and service literature, road test reports, magazine articles and many photographs.
So having "all kinds of cars currently for sale all the time" would defeat the object of the Register. Small cars only, thank you very much! ;D
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preferably small and very obscure thats where the unusual bit comes in .
by the way the velorex thing looks yuk !
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Hi - I would like to know if anyone knows where in the USA that I can see and possibly purchase one of the new velorex cars. they look really neat. The only websites that I found that had them pictured were written in a language that I couldn't read. In fact some of the words couldn't by translated by my computer.
The image you posted was someone else's Computer Generated Image of what they thought a "modern" Velorex could look like.
However, perhaps I am wrong. Post the link of where you saw this "new" Velorex for sale.
There are a bazillion european vehicles that are not and never will be available to the US market.
This is one of them.
Also- the closest thing to a "real" one appears to be a one-off concept vehicle:
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/12/21/velorex-rides-again/ (http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/12/21/velorex-rides-again/)
Why would this one-off concept be available to purchase in the USA?
Also, (not on topic) whats with the classified section on this forum? It just seems to me that a micro car forum would be an excellent place to see all kinds of cars currently for sale all the time. But, sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.
So the existence of a classifieds section means that everyone is somehow obligated to post their microcars there for sale first?
I'll make sure everyone who chooses to use eBay instead knows that this is what they should be doing.
Many people also choose to sell their cars privately to other enthusiasts.
Are you under the impression there are just great piles of these things laying about that cannot be sold?
Many marques are quite limited in the number that remain and they don't trade hands that often.
They are not Fords or Chevys where you can fill up a weekly classifieds easily with hundreds or thousands of vehicles trading hands.
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Steady on Jim, did you get out of the bed on the wrong side this morning?
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In fact some of the words couldn't by translated by my computer.
Try translating Czech! That is if they're still manufactured in the Czech Republic. If so you'll probably have to import it yourself, just like all the other Velorex's in this country.
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Beware the Jawamockery, my son
The drawings that might, the trawls that catch.
I think this is an image set to catch interest in ideas rather than real thing, just is the above is no Carroll.
Some forums seem to be happily commercial. This one appears to prefer to point out opportunity rather than initiate them itself. I kind of quite like that. Even then it can be difficult to get away from what stuff is worth and get into some gubbins where one can learn something.
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Steady on Jim, did you get out of the bed on the wrong side this morning?
Sorry, here is the short version of my answer to the new Velorex question: No.
also- as for the Classifieds: Sorry they disappoint.
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sorry fellas. it seems that i may have come on a little to strong for some of you and for that i truly appologize. I do realize that most micros are quite scarce. and i also understand that people have the right to sell to anyone they choose. the comment i made in my post was purely because in my own stupidity i spent more than two hours looking through what i thought was a treasure trove of micro cars for sale and then all at once i realized that the posts go forever back in time. i added it all up in my head and came to the conclusion that almost every post had to be null and void at that point. now, when you put yourself in my shoes you may have made a comment also. or, maybe not. sorry again.
as for the velorex. automotto.com seems to have a real one. and you may be right. it may be a on off. if not though it may be note worthy although i don't know if it would fall into the catagory of micro car. i guess that would depend on what they were running in it.
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automotto.com seems to have a real one. and you may be right. it may be a on off. if not though it may be note worthy although i don't know if it would fall into the catagory of micro car. i guess that would depend on what they were running in it.
http://www.automotto.com/entry/with-velor-x-trike-velorex-returns-with-bang-at-motosalon-brno-2010/ (http://www.automotto.com/entry/with-velor-x-trike-velorex-returns-with-bang-at-motosalon-brno-2010/)
It is exactly the same vehicle I posted in the Hemmings Blog link above.
Here is how the Internet works: Blogs need content to get you to visit and click links, hopefully clicking ads, either deliberately or by accident.
That's it. That's how the internet works.
So any crazy rumor gets posted over and over and over again, each "blog" trying to make it sound like they have the inside scoop.
For years there was a rumor going around that BMW was making a "new Isetta".
There was absolutely no truth to it, but that did not stop creative people from taking concept drawings of a new smaller BMW - done by a graphic artist not associated with BMW - and proclaiming that it was going to be the "new Isetta". This rumor laid the groundwork for more rumors of when the car would be introduced, pricing and availability, despite the fact that it existed as a concept drawing done not by BMW, but by an auto enthusiast magazine in Germany.
BMW has no "new Isetta" in the wings.
Current computer technology makes it relatively easy for anyone to generate "concept" cars such as the one you originally posted.
Many times these concepts drawings are used to fool people into believing a real one exists, or they are used as sales tools to entice investors for a potential future project.
The actual official website for the vehicle in question appears to be this:
http://www.velor-x-trike.com/ (http://www.velor-x-trike.com/)
Everything appears to be promotion and press coverage with no actual plans to build more. The vehicle appears to be a design study.
It is also powered by a Honda 1.3Liter motor, so it is not really a microcar. It is a very large enclosed trike motorcycle.
Microcars are generally enclosed scooters.
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aah ! isetta wings - now theres a thing saw some on ebay once and they flew ::)
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Thanks for posting their website Jim. It says they plan to build 60 of them but as you say these things seldom come to fruition. I was mulling over what you said "microcars are generally enclosed scooters" I dont think thats strictly true unless you mean in the sense that many have engines that have been converted to be fan blown like a scooter. Obviously Hienkels were an extension of the Tourist scooter and the schmitt is called a cabin scooter but most other microcars have adapted engines used in motorcycles, Isetta being the prime example, all the villiers powered British ones, Bonds, scootacar, Frisky, Tourette although to be fair some of these units found there way into unsuccessful scooters as well. Berkeley's also used motorcycle engine, excelsior, anzani and Royal enfield none of which are fan blown, they also have big wheels. Powerdrive, Coronet are car like with bike engines etc. Of course the original Velorex used the Jawa motorbike engine with motorbike wheels. I'm sure there will be others that were more scooterlike too if I thought about it. No real point to this post, just an excuse to think about microcars whilst I'm supposed to be working!! I'm sure you will come back with something to prove me totally wrong Jim. :D :D
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Bob brings us back round to the old Micro car, Scooter Car, Cycle Car, Bubble Car debate, all VERY close relatives!
Thanks for posting the link Jim, I was very pleased to see the photo of Mojmir Stransky signing the "prototype", it must have been a proud moment for him to know that his work still has an influence. Mojmir is the surviving one of two brothers who started Velorex, Latin for Speed King, just like the (in)famous Ludwig Bass Drum Pedal.
I have to admit that I am sick to death of "Concept Cars" and "The New ...." and "The 21st Century ...." Virtually all of them are just there to tease and tantalise.
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I've found that describing the concept of "microcars" to people, particularly to Americans, is easier when using the "enclosed scooter" analogy.
Yes, many have motorcycle engines, but when Americans think "motorcycles" they think over 1000cc.
I also get lots of Press Release emails from people trying to make/offer 3-wheeled cars for the US market.
Many think that simply removing a wheel makes it a "microcar".
They are also referred to as "cars" in the Press Releases, but buried in the fine print someplace is a line that says in order to be registered for road use, the vehicle should be registered as a "motorcycle".
They are 3-wheeled so as to bypass the normal crash testing and safety standards test that must be done on 4-wheelers.
Unfortunately, some states have passed laws clarifying the difference between an open and an enclosed 3-wheeled motorcycle.
Open cockpits are considered trikes or 3-wheeled motorcycles, while closed cockpits are considered "automobiles" and thus subject to crash and safety testing.
So even if some of these vehicles were actually built and available, they would not be able to be registered in all 50 states.
There are those that complain about Government interference, but I found that these new regulations were lobbied by motorcycle groups that were worried their insurance rates would increase if these enclosed vehicles were lumped in with the motorcycle "class" and not "automobile".
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Unfortunately, some states have passed laws clarifying the difference between an open and an enclosed 3-wheeled motorcycle.
Upon registering my Freeway I was delighted to find that the laws of Washington mostly work in my favor. It's legally a motorcycle, but as it has three wheels, a fully-enclosed cabin (although the law also recognizes partially-enclosed cabins, whatever that might mean in practice), a seat instead of a saddle, a seat belt, and a steering wheel instead of handlebars, I need neither a helmet nor a motorcycle endorsement on my license in order to operate it. Fair enough by me.
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Hearing about the various legislation and classification over in USA has given me the crazy idea (never likely to be fulfilled) of driving my Drum Car on a trip through every State in USA and see how many laws I break!
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Hearing about the various legislation and classification over in USA has given me the crazy idea (never likely to be fulfilled) of driving my Drum Car on a trip through every State in USA and see how many laws I break!
They will just tell you to 'beat it'.
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Thanks for posting their website Jim. It says they plan to build 60 of them but as you say these things seldom come to fruition. I was mulling over what you said "microcars are generally enclosed scooters" I dont think thats strictly true unless you mean in the sense that many have engines that have been converted to be fan blown like a scooter. Obviously Hienkels were an extension of the Tourist scooter and the schmitt is called a cabin scooter but most other microcars have adapted engines used in motorcycles, Isetta being the prime example, all the villiers powered British ones, Bonds, scootacar, Frisky, Tourette although to be fair some of these units found there way into unsuccessful scooters as well. Berkeley's also used motorcycle engine, excelsior, anzani and Royal enfield none of which are fan blown, they also have big wheels. Powerdrive, Coronet are car like with bike engines etc. Of course the original Velorex used the Jawa motorbike engine with motorbike wheels. I'm sure there will be others that were more scooterlike too if I thought about it. No real point to this post, just an excuse to think about microcars whilst I'm supposed to be working!! I'm sure you will come back with something to prove me totally wrong Jim. :D :D
At the risk of controversy I would observe that the best of the core Microcars are the ones based on the enclosed Scooter approach. Britain was late into Scooters, see Peter Agg and Lambretta success, so it is not surprising that the local engine supply was somewhat limited and some of the offerings, as vehicles, not as good. It is interesting that the Scooter based cars were based on Italian ideas but developed as successful in Germany. No one country can claim the prize and of course despite these successes there is always convergent evolution so other machines appeared elsewhere of merit around the same time.
As if to underline the Scooter link when the engine suppliers Excelsior and Villiers failed their Scooterised bike engines become unavailable and the British Scooter manufacturers mostly failed with that, just as the small car manufacturers did. Now Dave Hambliton has pretty much the entire Trojan Works archive of paperwork it will be established if Peter Agg's claim to be behind this failure, allegedly due to his seeking revenge for being twisted out of the Australian small engine market by Villiers, is true. He certainly stood to gain as he was selling Lambretta and badge engineered Heinkels plus misc other items into this very market and the mass death of the opposition did his business a favour.
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Hearing about the various legislation and classification over in USA has given me the crazy idea (never likely to be fulfilled) of driving my Drum Car on a trip through every State in USA and see how many laws I break!
They will just tell you to 'beat it'.
As Big Jim Parkinson was told to several times during his Rytecraft Scootercar trip across USA! And that gave me the daft idea of using an even dafter vehicle!
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There is no controversy Al, its an interesting topic to discuss and our views will by influenced by the car we personally like. I guess as I'm keen on Isettas at the moment I'm thinking motorbike derived engine, a long four stroke unit far removed from the buzzy two strokes associated with scooters. Surley the one thing the big three have inherited from scooters must is the enclosed chain case forming the rear swing arm.
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While I feel the Isetta behaves more as a small car it most definitely has scooter heritage in it. The original engine has a relationship to a scooter engine. That BMW choose to go for there own unit which was to an extent half a bike engine was because that was what was available in house. Interesting the prototype scooter engine did not figure. The Isetta has the benefit of reasonable torque, which strokers of the time did not provide without revs. Clearly a better answer to the sort of use that was expected. The Messerschmitt always appealed to a different buyer I think. They are not as good in town traffic as the Isetta and Treinkel in my opinion - though get thaty gearchange sorted out! Get on an autobahn/bypass and the Schmitt can use its speed. These cars remain the class acts for me. The Scootacar comes closest of the Brits though the others have niches they excel at. Berkeleys are sporting, when they work. Bonds can carry prodigious loads but got rather large as they got sophisticated and so on.
An enclosed chain and an efficient cooling system was undoubtedly advantageous and again common to the Scooters. Also the styling and ergonomics favour the big three I feel and has a lot in common with Scooters.
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I particularly like that the Velor-x-trike designer previously made the unforgettably-named Jawa Pionýr Black Death 140
(http://www.velor-x-trike.com/foto/prod/thumbs/pionyr_black.jpg)
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arent you all forgeting the real postwar start of it all ??
LAWRIE BOND'S MINICAR DESIGNED 1948/9 PRODUCTION STARTED 1949 - USING AN OFF THE SHELF MOTORCYCLE ENGINE OF 122CC WHY DOES THIS NOT GET THE RECOGNITION FROM MODERN MICRO ENTHUSIASTS ?
Didnt realise i was SHOUTING but why not for heavens sake ?
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Sorry, not with you old fruit? Who's arguing about what was the first postwar microcar?
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arent you all forgeting the real postwar start of it all ??
LAWRIE BOND'S MINICAR DESIGNED 1948/9 PRODUCTION STARTED 1949 - USING AN OFF THE SHELF MOTORCYCLE ENGINE OF 122CC WHY DOES THIS NOT GET THE RECOGNITION FROM MODERN MICRO ENTHUSIASTS ?
Didnt realise i was SHOUTING but why not for heavens sake ?
I would suggest that rather proves the point. The Bond pre-dated most of the Scooters and their success from 1950. The prototype Minicar was made out of bits nicked from Blackburn, the aeroplane manufacturing version. It had little to borrow ideas from but earlier cyclecars. Take the concept of a Minicar and use the ideas and styling of the later, proven Scooters and you steal a march on your competition who are developing from nothing. From then on Bond were chasing the game, in a sense. No claims of first, last or purity of thought is being made. As so often the folk who have the ideas do not end up making the cash as having shown the way the generalists backed with investment and know how run with the market. All the big three German marques I suggested had backing from larger organisations in some form before full success was really achieved. Even the in house Heinkel did not spring fully formed into production. It was the Heinkel that ultimately disappointed out of the three as it really wanted another round of development to iron out niggles but for various reasons this never happened and it was franchised off to retain the lucrative engine manufacturer. Pity as the design is the best of the lot in principle for me. Yep better than the Messerschmitt. What would the Heinkel have become if it had been franchised to a dynamic firm rather than an Irish job creation scheme?
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I agree that Bond was certainly a pioneer of the post Vera Lynne War micro/bubble/scooter/cycle car boom, but I think it is reasonable to think that it might have been inspired vaguely by the pre-War Raleigh Safety Seven, and even that has a basic form which dates back to the very earliest cars, many of which were small three wheelers, often with a single front wheel. Cars like the 1888 Roger Benz, Mr Knight's petroleum tricycle of 1896, the Beeston of 1898, The American Knox Waterless "Old Porcupine" of 1900, then the 1903 La Nef/Larcroix-de-Laville, 1904 Cyklonette and 1910 Phanomobil. The last two, from Germany, had the engine mounted over the front wheel.