RUMCars Forum
General Category => Microcar Events => Topic started by: Stuart Cyphus on February 14, 2013, 05:08:56 PM
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For those who can't attend in person, Jim's Microcar.org has a live news blog playing out over the three days, covering the preview (today, right now) and the two days of the sale itself.... Coverage starts 3pm UK-time each day.
http://www.microcar.org/blog/microcar-museum-preview-day-live-blog/
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Better link is to just go to
http://microcar.org/blog/ (http://microcar.org/blog/)
to see each day.
Had connection issues on the Preview Day, very difficult to post anything.
I am pretty sure this is resolved for the 2 Auction Days.
Note: FIXED THE LINK ABOVE
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Viewing figures of Eastenders will be down! Well anything is more interesting than drivel.
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I see they've been through the dustbins already! Good man.
No rush from Blighty to get over there in the end then? Clearly most of us are skint.
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http://www.microcar.org/blog/
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i really haven't found the time to view all the listed lots but on the 15 minute walk through i didn't spot and examples of Bond A or B yet i know he had at one time at least 1 and i think 2 bare aluminium Mark A LHD 's where did they go then ?
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I see they've been through the dustbins already! Good man.
No rush from Blighty to get over there in the end then? Clearly most of us are skint.
Yes, I too notice that hardly anyone British is excited about it, I dont think its that everyone is scint, its just that there is something so unBritish about the whole thing. The Americans love a circus, you just have to see there elections to appreciate that. Maybe its resentment that so many of the worlds rarest microcars have ended up in the US, the land of the gas guzzler? I don't know? Maybe we are afraid that it will set new price precedents like the last one, Bruce walks away with his divorce paid for whilst the real enthusiasts see the cars they aspired to own put further out of reach. Not sure which theory I subsriibe to but have heard all the a fore mentioned expressed.
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Never realised they made a hardtop Zeta Sports!
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All very sad really is he going to do this again in another 10 years
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Jeeez! check the price for a Villiers museum display engine! ???
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Lucky Bruce. I made that Villiers cut away engine for him about a year ago, along with the BMW 300 & Sachs 200 sectioned engines. I had never done that sort of thing, but as I have a full size Bridgeport milling machine it was easy. I was very pleased with how the engines came out. Nick.
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The BMW motor went for over $5,000. !!!! I reckon the sachs might go for a bit more, we'll see. Nick.
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Breaking News! The Peel P50 sets the highest price of the auction so far, at $105,000. (£77,000 inc 15% fees etc) A new World Record Peel price I belive... Messerschmitts coming in on estimate or just under. Isettas are going BIG money way over estimates. Has the tide turned away from Regonsberg towards Stuttgart we wonder.... :)
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Time to list my original and running P50 on E-Bay me thinks ;D
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More breaking news! Underbidder of Bruce's P50 reads forum on his laptop & is on his way to Madison airport for a ticket toScotland right now.... ;D
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Great news Stuart, better get polishing it ;)
I suspect some foul play with the P50 selling price though. An on-line bidder from Nottingham was giving it a good push to keep prices buoyant :o
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Scootacar Mk 1 is due on at about 8.30pm. Will this break the bank we wonder after the 15k one on ebay last year...
Rob Dobie's old Bond Mk C is due on around 9pm.... :)
Additional;
Bond Bug makes $15,000 !!!! :o
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Another World Record price! Bob Purton's old Frisky Family Three makes $50,000. (£32,216)
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for rarity he should really have had a Gordon or a Bruetsch Pfeil i think ;)
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See what the rest make but these silly prices will kill it for the genuine enthusiast
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The blog's gone & crashed now! Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible....
General message from Jim; If anyone's following the live blog, don't keep pressing the refresh button! The blog updates itself automatically as each car sells. The more you yourself hits "refresh" the slower the updates come....
20.50pm Up & running again!
And Lot 289 is the first Messerschmitt to make MORE than it's estimate, coming in at $67.500 (Estimate $45-55,000). Is the Messechmitt/Issetta price war still set to kick off one wonders..... :)
The Pel P50 is still the highest-grossing car so far.....
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Hi Blob
Re Zeta Sports
They didn't make a production Zeta Sports with a hard top, that one on sale is an early prototype fitted with a Frisky roof and a "trial" side door there were a couple tried before Harold Lightburn decided "no doors" which lead to a falling out with Gorden Bedson who left them to it.
John
Nice price for the Frisky, but it still needs sorting out, pretty but not all original.
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9.05pm; The Coca-cola Goggo Transporter overtakes the Peel P50 as highest-grossing car so-far, bringing in $120,000 (£88,895 inc fees etc) :o
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21.44pm Jim has stopped the live blogging due to people not leaving their "refresh" buttons alone & thus causing the site to collapse repeatedly. That's probably all we're gonna get for reports now until after the end of today's play & Jim can update in peace overnight.... :(
THANKS TO EVERYONE HAMMERING THE WEBSITE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD:
I’VE HAD TO TEMPORARILY TAKE ALL RESULTS OFF-LINE
They will be back after the website cools and down and I can update things.
I am really behind on uploading results because I can’t access the site.
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Thanks Stuart
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yes, side is collapsed. i cant get access too! Last lot i could follow was 286 !!
Sad, but some many folks seems to watch what change the microcar world.
I am looking forward tommorow.
Regards to all of you, watching the games :-)
Ferdi
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Well results are back up.
Apparently it is the only place to see them!
Some changes in store for Day 2. Results will be delayed while I upload them.
Hopefully that will help.
I guess if you want instant results you will have to watch their live streaming video, or be there in person.
One way or another, you will get something tomorrow.
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Hi Blob
Re Zeta Sports
They didn't make a production Zeta Sports with a hard top, that one on sale is an early prototype fitted with a Frisky roof and a "trial" side door there were a couple tried before Harold Lightburn decided "no doors" which lead to a falling out with Gorden Bedson who left them to it.
John
Nice price for the Frisky, but it still needs sorting out, pretty but not all original.
"Harold Lightburn decided "no doors" which lead to a falling out" I like that John! :D Was it intended?
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To be honest Bob No, but I'll accept the applause!
I must pay more attention to what I say, I am sure Stuart miss understood my recent comments on the use of lard to free things up!!
John
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Is the Messechmitt/Issetta price war still set to kick off one wonders..... :)
The Pel P50 is still the highest-grossing car so far.....
All this proves to me is that the majority of high value buyers are not/will not drive the cars and are buying from the point of view of visual and stylistic reasons not collectors or drivers motivations. The collectors are coming in underneath to clean up the left overs. This is exactly as expected and matches what happened at Christies. Bruce has done wonders with the publicity so the only people who do not know the auction is on live on several Andermman Isles, central New Guinea and deep in the Amazon basin where they are more interested in eating the neighbours. As at Christies a lot of owners will be running around thinking their cars are suddenly worth a fortune forgetting that these prices are part of what is the occasion and in most cases unrepeatable in a single private sale. That and it is clear the bling factor is important. Good job as the collectors are able to have a go at some of the more original stuff that looks a bit scruffy.
I am glad I bought my Schmitts and stuff when I did. From here on it is all getting to expensive to be worth it for the ordinary punter sadly. No doubt a lot of new folk will be interested and much education will be needed to re-stabilize things a bit. Until then a few mistakes will be made and there could be tears before bedtime. I predict it is a good time to move into the USA and become a restorer/dealer in these cars, make a killing and vanish. Any takers?
I await to see if my other suspicions are proved correct as until the dust settles all is speculation in absence of full facts.
Glad Stuart is enjoying the show. The Murray Walker of the underpowered bollide.
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Right then, for all those who have been asking overnight, here's a summary of the Scootacars & things from Day 1;
The Scootacar Mk 1 made $34,000 (£21,915).
The Scootacar Mk 2 made $44,000 (£28,361).
Rob Dobie's old Bond Mk C, JAP 369/PXH 744 made $12,000, (£7,734)
For our Richard's amusement ;) the 1950 Bond Mk A made $9,000 (£5,801) and the Mk B made $17,000 (£10,957)
Once again, 15% fees are to be added to the above hammer prices.
Coke Goggo Transporter ($120,000) and the Peel P50 ($105,000) are still the highest grossing cars so-far.
So, looking ahead to tonight, the expected highlights of tonight's action includes the Brutsch Mopetta (Lot 560), the Dubble Bubble Goggo Transporter (lot 563), Messerschmitt KR201 roadster (lot564), Dr Hans Jopjen's second-from-last KR200 built (lot 569), the Wattadrag V* Hotwheels Isetta (Lot 584, it's hideous I know, but reports suggest the Americans are set to go potty to get their hands on it!) The Peel Trident (Lot 587 and $105,000 to beat...) Bob Purton's first Inter (lot 590) then comes the Messerchmitt Tiger (lot 603 & got to do well to restore Messerschmitt honour against the Peels ;) The Brutch Roller leaves the Weiner collection for a second time at lot 632, and last but not least ;) the very last lot, 642, the Larmar. Will certain somebodies connected with the ICR get their grubby little mitts on it as intended we wonder. Come dawn, the answer will be known... ;)
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Hmm, I concede with Al then , they are not appreciating the rare cars only the ascetically pleasing.
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am i wrong ? i am much more interested in the unrestored frisky , fuldamobil etc and the driveable condition ex-dobie Bond . the fun of of owning your own project or restoration is so much better than just buying in ready done - for me anyway - but this comes from someone who hasn't had a car on the road for years . i still wouldnt buy someone elses resto - unless it was for immediate use on the road .
stu was the Bond A the unrestored bare ally one ? thanks
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As at Christies a lot of owners will be running around thinking their cars are suddenly worth a fortune forgetting that these prices are part of what is the occasion and in most cases unrepeatable in a single private sale.
I agree, also as discussed the American auction system is somewhat different, bidders are usually prompted by floor men to keep the bids going, but these prices are simply relative to those bidding, i.e. a room full of millionaires! Whereas 10k may be the limit of the average man in the street, it's 100k for them. Goodbye affordable hobby! >:(
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was the Bond A the unrestored bare ally one ? thanks
It was this one Richard :)
Live video steam for the duration to be found here.... That's my afternoon/evening all mapped out. 8)
http://www.rmauctions.com/auctions/live-feed.cfm?SaleCode=BW13
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Messeschmitt sewing machine coming up any moment now.....
...and sells for $1,200 (£756)
UPDATE, 17.00pm
Nick's cutaway Sachs engine (lot 495) makes $6,000 (£3,780) !!
17.16pm Velam pedal car makes $3,000 (£2,890)
Cars proper are due to start about 6pm UK-time...
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Anyone want to hazard a guess to how much money BW will clear from this auction? A bit like guessing the how many Smarties in a jar, but you don't win a prize. ;D
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Cars are starting now.... :)
Bog standard UK isetta (lot 543) makes $27,500 (£17,325)
Brutsch Mopetta (Lot 560) makes $57,500 (£36,225)
Mi-Val Makes $72,500 (£45,675)
Dubble Bubble Goggo Transporter (lot 563) makes $115,000 (£72,450)
Messerschmitt KR201 roadster (lot564) makes $90,000 (£56,700)
Dr Hans Jopjen's second-from-last KR200 built (lot 569) makes $40,000 (£25,200)
Wattadrag V8 Hotwheels Isetta (Lot 584) makes $80,000 (£50,400)
Peel Trident (Lot 587 and $105,000 to beat) makes $90,000 (£56,700)
Bob Purton's first Inter (lot 590) makes $140,000 (£88,200) (Go on Bob, you can tell us, how much did Bruce give you for it way back when?) ;)
Reyonnah (Lot 594) makes $160,000 (£100,800) It's getting serious out there now folks!
Messerchmitt Tiger (lot 603) makes $1,000,000 On the nose! :o Nah, only joking, it made $280,000 (£176,400) HIGHEST-GROSSING CAR OF THE ENTIRE AUCTION! Is this now the most expensive microcar EVER sold??
Fuji Cabin (Lot 623 & my personal favourite car) made $110,000 (£69,300)
Brutch Rollera (lot 632) makes $55,000 (£34,650)
Larmar (Lot 642) makes $4,000 (£2,520) Ian, was it you? (Additional, alas not, Jeff Lane got it instead!)
All above prices, plus 15% buyers premium
And that folks, is the end of the second Bruce Weiner Microcar Collection....
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Anyone else think this is a load of old nonsense. Whoever is bidding clearly hasn't got the slightest clue about what they're buying as not only is everything massively overvalued, but the relative prices of each lot are all totally out of wack. I guess if money's no object it's better than leaving it sat in the bank, but like the coke van, it's all a bit of a joke really.
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I totally agree, the prices make no sense. It would be easy to conclude that the buyers are idiots but the fact that they HAVE the money to squander suggests otherwise! I dont know that its a joke but BW is certainly laughing! ;D
Million dollars for the Tiger?, my guess is it wont make that. Now watch for egg on my face!
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BW is certainly laughing!
Maybe he's crying... all depends what prompted the sale! ???
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BW is certainly laughing!
Maybe he's crying... all depends what prompted the sale! ???
Touché Sir!
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tonights homework
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Bob what were you saying about the replica peels liquidating the market. £77.000 in all !!!!!!!! :o
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$140,000 for bobs inter! " plus buyers premium "
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but- theres no logic to the prices is there ? surely the Bruetsch Rollera is much more stylish, rare and just as useable
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At this point I'd like to say a public "Thank You" to Jim for spending most of his time at the auction chained to his Lap-top giving us the results live as they happened. With RM's video stream on one screen and Jim's list & comments on the other, I certainly enjoyed the proceedings anyway! :)
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Totally agree with you Stuart. Many thanks Jim for all your efforts over the last few days which has kept the Microcar world amused and in many cases shocked :o
Time for a rest Jim whilst we try and work out what this all means for our hobby.
I am off to buy another Bond tomorrow as they are now too cheap not to buy ;)
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Bob what were you saying about the replica peels liquidating the market. £77.000 in all !!!!!!!! :o
I know Jamie. Try puting yours on ebay and see what you get! :D
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BW is certainly laughing!
Maybe he's crying... all depends what prompted the sale! ???
Touché Sir!
Yeh, I'm pretty touche too when he has just sold my Inter for $140,000 !
And who's going to give me $140,000 for my current Inter, Rarer model with the lowest surviving chassis number? Any takers? NO thought not. The whole thing is ridiculous!
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The Tiger sold to Russia for $280,000, so mine is now for sale for $250,000 including a bottle of vodka, must be a bargain ! Nick.
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Need to see the full figures and do the statistics to pull out useful facts from this lot but once again it shows the need for a car collection to be presented well and in enough quantity to generate its own market, much like a firestorm of bombs is more intense than a carpet of them scattered loosely about. Meanwhile the rest of the world ticks along and the fall out will dim the sun a bit, obscuring where we are.
The net effect has to be a bit of a rise in prices I imagine. That and a fair few new folk entering the scene. What does come across, though, is the need for cars to be complete and good looking unless they are heading to the serious collector, who will more often than not have a restricted budget in mind that can be considerably less than those looking to market might now wish to be looking for. So there could be a period of stand off there. The enthusiast could be left to build a car out of a rusty hulk as that is all he can afford. Without the required skills even that will be rather expensive.
The Tiger just had to re establish its position of chief looney tune. So the guy who was sniffing my project car will be a bit miffed he did not go for it now! Truly these have become rich men's toys and jolly good luck to them, but I cannot afford to play really. That said I am happy to own most of the cars at the prices I bought them. A potentially slightly ridiculous situation. Perhaps IC are the cheaper arena folk are looking for. That or French Fridges. Both are microesque.
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Yeah right whatever
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I wonder how many of the new owners will update the Rumcars register if the lot they bought was on it?
Not many I would guess if they have been bought by millionaire investors which does beg the question, how good an investment are those top end buys? It could be many many years before the true street values catch up with what they have paid. Or maybe they are not for investment, just the whim of the seriously wealthy and the price just doesn't matter?
I'm told my name was mentioned by the auctioneer as the person who restored the Inter before the bidding started, you would think that would have put folk off! ;D Now which would I prefer, the restoration acknowledgement or the $160,000 ? Oooo that's a difficult one! :D :D :D
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yep !! first have to thank www.microcar.org/blog/microcar-museum-auction-live-coverage ; that gives us time prices, and link to live cam ... it was funny to ear the auctionner ,during two long days talking and talking..." 1 million and thirty ?? 1 million and forty thank you ... bla bla bla ...." he must be thursty now !! ^^
then happy to see that all cars have " new daddys" ... happy to imagine i'm now a millionnaire ...Mochet, velam, Vespa 400 ( 2 and a standard rare one $$) and and and INTER yeesssss !!! .but as i'm not seller till i'm alive, i' will stay the guy i've still be ... living for those microcars trying to drive them, ready for biennale Bisbi National Rally .....
may be 2014 will see all those new owners for our rally !! wow will have to change my security staff to military staff because of robbers ! ^^
sad now because each seller will get prices against that auction , and next inter will be a spacial microcar to high for us to see !!
and now Mr Weiner is a milliardaire ( or closer too??) what will he collect now ???
how can he live without his toys or " babys " ?? i couldn't ...
smile at guys now when they' ll spite you " rich man with microcar" ..... tell them : YYEEEEEEESSSSSS !!! ^^
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Anyone else think this is a load of old nonsense. Whoever is bidding clearly hasn't got the slightest clue about what they're buying as not only is everything massively overvalued, but the relative prices of each lot are all totally out of wack. I guess if money's no object it's better than leaving it sat in the bank, but like the coke van, it's all a bit of a joke really.
The same person bought the Reyonnah, the Inter, the Kroboth, the P.Valle, the Fuldamobil S7, and I forget what else at the moment.
He is new to this and very interested in the cars from a design and historical perspective.
I am fairly certain he will be registering them with RUM as well.
He knew that he was bidding against an unknown Russian bidder but still managed to acquire some of the nicest cars there.
He knew exactly what he was buying and was fully aware that the prices were stupid. But he truly loved those cars and wanted them.
They were not purchases as investments. (By him at least)
Lane Motor Museum also acquired a nice selection of really good additions that will now be seen by many more people.
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Thanks for that snippet Jim. Its good to know that at least that buyer has good taste as well as pots of money! Will those cars be staying in America? I would love for my ex Inter to have been coming back to Europe but think that unlikely, still by your account it nearly ended up in Russia! If he wants any infomation on the Inter he is welcome to contact me. It would be interesting to know if any of the lots were coming to the uk.
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Thanks Jim, that is a little bit reassuring. The one thing I didn't want is for these cars to be shrink-wrapped in airtight cocoons and then hidden away in some darkened storage facility somewhere never to see the light of day. As well as issues with insurance and security, the problem with such auction prices is whether it deters other owners from using their vehicles and those of us with more constrained finances from having an opportunity to see such rare vehicles actually being used as intended.
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The cars I just mentioned will be staying in the USA, I know you are all thrilled with that news... :(
The same person also got the Fuji Cabin.
I'm sure he will be contacting you Bob. I doubt he will be posting anything here, but who knows?
There are a LOT of stories to be told from this event, and while I enjoy a good bit of gossip as much as the next person, I have tried to focus on the good things that have come out of this.
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I have tried to focus on the good things that have come out of this.
Recent events got me thinking, when was the last time I ever saw a vintage micro parked up overnight, the answer 2000!
If people believe the hype, they're only safe tucked away out of sight, or in a convoy at a rally. When will it become too much a risk to leave them in the street when popping down the shops, as I know many of you do, has the auction changed your opinion about doing just that?
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Pound-for-Pound it's no real difference to 1997. Now as then, the enthusiast will go on enthusing, the investor will go on investing, the rumours will go on ruminating and the world will go on turning, same as it always has done, same as it always will do. It's just another chapter in the history of these things we call microcars... :)
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Well we've been here before in 1997.
The REAL enthusiasts will ignore these values and carry on restoring and driving their cars.
Well some of us will!
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It is interessing, that this "new microcar enthusiast" were most interested in restaured (better then new) cars. All original unrestaured cars have not met this very high prices.
For example the KR175 - No. 243 just sold for 20K. I don't thinks that anyone will be able to find a better early KR175 for less money.
On the other hand, my old KR175 - No. 270 made 32K. This car had a perfect unwelded bodywork but was badly painted by the previous owner in white.
So I suggest we concentrate on the untouched cars and leave the full restaured cars to the others...
Oliver
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do i not recall reading that , in Bruces earlier sale ,the Bruetsch Rollera - surely one of the best looking of all micros - was sold at a huge price . when Bruce started collecting again he re-bought the car having been used as a childrens plaything in a sandpit. does anyone else recall this ?
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I have tried to focus on the good things that have come out of this.
[/quote]
Which are??
The only good thing I can imagine coming out of this is that some of the lower valued cars may actually get driven by there new owners or is that wishfull thinking?.
Yes it is bad news that all the good stuff is staying in the USA!
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i dont see any bad things resulting from the sale . i didn't actually watch any of the auctions but have seen the forum with it's regular updates -thanks to all concerned , some cars that weren't mine sold on to someone else who wasn't me . it happens every day doesn't it . buyer/seller it's how the world goes round and i don't see any losers . all this despite the crazed activity . who has lost out ? where are the negatives ? beyond me
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You will soon find out Richard next time you want to buy an unusual microcar. Stuarts comment saying nothing will change is in my view erroneous! Was he buying microcars before the Christies sale? No, was he buying them shortly after the sale, no! I was and there was a world of difference, prices inflated quickly! Peoples attitude changed towards microcars, owners that were once happy to sell cars on now started to think, hand on a minute, microcars are worth big bucks now, I read it in the paper.
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your opinion bob , i only stated mine . i don't feel that in 6 months time the average Bond , Heinkel Isetta etc will be any higher than last month . my opinion Schmitts have been silly money for a while really haven't they - and TGR's say no more . i don't think your Inter will sell for any more now than before - why should it without the hype ?
glad you withdrew comments about me being naieve bob - even if you still think it ;) there is a difference between this sale and the Christies sale . the Christies sale did increase awareness of micro new values , but by now surely few regard them in a poor light as years ago . it's a long while since those opinions were widely held .
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I have tried to focus on the good things that have come out of this.
Yes it is bad news that all the good stuff is staying in the USA!
Bob - your countryman had equally opportunity to buy cars and bring them home.
I am in an airplane flying back to Los Angeles. Its not that dissimilar a cost or inconvenience.
If anyone wanted a car badly enough they didn't even need to get off their duff.
They could have bidded by internet or telephone.
So who id to blame for the card staying in the USA?
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Well time will tell, I'm just reasoning that if the first Weiner hike did the hobby no favors how can the second? There is nothing wrong in getting our opinions off our chests, thats what forums are for.
Re " it is bad news that all the good stuff is staying in the USA" Apportioning no blame to anyone at all, just stating a fact from where a European enthusiast stands. The same as it was a fact when all the good stuff was in Story Germany from an American enthusiasts view.
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Yeh, I'm pretty touche too when he has just sold my Inter for $140,000 !
I think it stopped being your Inter when you sold it.
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Of course, slip of the finger, I mean my X Inter.
You are forgetting Jim that BW was telling people that the cars were going to be held in a trust so that he could not sell them. Surely you can understand why now some of us may be feeling a little miffed?
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The Tiger sold to Russia for $280,000, so mine is now for sale for $250,000 including a bottle of vodka, must be a bargain ! Nick.
I have to update that as the Russian Bidder was in the room and it was won by phone bidder.
Of course the phone bidder could have been Russian too...
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Dear friends
Every quarter I do an analysis of sales of Microcars, mostly on Ebay, and I see that there are some lovingly restored cars that go for relatively high sums of money. I also see that there are cars ripe for restoration at the other end of the scale for under £1000 (as low as £125). In the middle ground there are still a lot of presentable cars that can be purchased within most peoples budgets.
Now for those people who are good at taking a cheap car ripe for restoration, and turning it into a fully restored car, the prospect of getting a good price for it should be a bonus, not a disincentive.
As Bruce has said recently, it is the thrill of the chase he like. So seeking out the unrestored cars should be our aim, and getting them back on the road, before Bruce come looking again.
Now before anybody points any fingers, I will admit that I am not qualified or experienced at car restoration. But then again I am not looking to make money out of what I own, I want to preserve what there is.
If Bruce can get people to buy his collection at sky high prices. Good luck to him. It may distort the market for a short period. But everything reverts back to its true value. Hence learing about the South Sea bubble, the Dutch Tulip bulb scandle, and the value of certain financial derivatives (!)
What we are seeing is history in progress, measured in money. Learn from other peoples success and mistakes, that is what history is all about.
Thanks for all the information JIm it has been interesting. Safe journey home and keep up the good work.
Chris Thomas
Rumcar News
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of course Chris, but when he looked for cars to fullfill the museum, knowing he was " an maérican" ... stepped prices to an unreasonable top prices ..... each seller ask enormous price ( on ebay or lbc) trying to fish BW and make money ..... now that this event , may be translated in many magazines, tv motor show , will be known by all , prices will be upgraded ... " that the price the latest one was sold in museum !! ... yes but this one you sell is quite rusty .... nevermind thats the price !!!!! ...
i told yet, that my inter was the last one bubblecar a bought ( such enough to restore and repear ) but may be for " money cause " the real last one !
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when I bought my first Isetta in 1987, I paid £500 for it - thought it was overpriced but it was a nice one, so I went for it.
Here's a run down of the prices paid for the cars I bought.
Isetta Plus LHD £525
Isetta RHD £50
Messerschmitt Kr200 £200
T&T Isetta RHD £500
Nobel £200
Bond Minicar MkC £350
Fiat 500 £200
Berkeley T60 (x2) £800
Berkeley B95 - £2000, with a rather juicy transferable number
WHen the Powerdrive was bought, it was a choice of that or Alan Ellis's Frisky Sport at the same money - a grand!
The Mochet was swapped for a T60 hardtop model in need of restoration
The cars I scrapped in the early 90s as unrestorable would all see the light of day again.
Even in 2007 the three Honda Z600s (including a runner, and an 80% restored example with a shed full of new old stock spare parts) only cost £1000 for the three.
I don't think these prices are good for the hobby but I do need to revise my insurance valuations.
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Well, after all the excitements of the Madison auction, the quiet will come back soon i reckon. No worries at all.
Maybe for us common enthusiasts the prizes were to high ( yes !). But for those, loving the cars, and not planning to sell them, they don't care.
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If anyone wanted a car badly enough they didn't even need to get off their duff.
I at last understand the Simpsons beer jokes! 'We are both fluent, Bough, but sadly in different languages'!
I have had several chats with folks about the effects of the auction. It all depends on you standpoint of course. I think it inevitable that the unit price will rise by an, as yet, unknown increment. Certain cars will get overpriced and unavailable for a bit till folk calm down. A lot of duffers will sell quite well as folk will make the assumption, alluded to by Chris T, that you can restore into profit. The problem is that the spares and purchasable skills sets will rise in value and the target of finish for 'top' money is now firmly established as better then off the production line. Only a few people will have the set up costs, talents and time to fulfil a restoration to that brief. Buying it in is, as always, a risky business. The genuine enthusiast will not care save that the entry price will probably rise. The cars to go for, and rejected by the bling boys clearly, remain the good unrestored cars but more and more pressure will fall on these as they represent 'easy' restorations for increased value at the expense of worth. That is important for me as loose those cars and the history, roots and meaning of all the other cars is lost for ever. An incorrectly over restored car in the wrong environment is really not very interesting to those who originally valued and saved these cars. Does that matter, probably not, but it is where I walk away saying 'boring'.
Root, on the other hand, has seen another positive. That is that there other 'silly little cars' that are not yet collected, overpriced or even valued for the interesting things they are. They might be on the margins of what I describe as a MIcrocar but RUM recommends a broad church so you can still muck about with I.C., French Fridges, Moped/quad type weirdness from round the world like Funtech or Norjska. A.B.O. in most cases for the folk who like sitting in fields but not quite hitting the mark for a tour of Wales. Then again light cars are dirt cheap too, they do now do tours of the Pennines etc. not least in the hands of Micro Maniacs. Sadly I do not see either arena really doing it for me, but it will come in for many folk I am sure. Change is consistent.
Its very tough for anyone new without a budget or a car though. That does not bode well for the long term grass roots activities.
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You have a point of course al but I don't remember the last few years as being well known for newcomers to our interests. Very rare to see teenagers and twentysomethings joining us anyway. In general they don't like getting their hands dirty ;)
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Very rare to see teenagers and twentysomethings joining us anyway. In general they don't like getting their hands dirty ;)
Jonathan! Jamie! Show Uncle Richard your hands! ;D ;)
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Of course. Like the VSCC its inherited cars now.
'One day, lad, all this will be yours.'
'What the kurbstones?'
'No, lad. The garage and all those acres of spares'
'But I don't want that. I just want a Singer'.
'We'll 'ave none of that. Your driving the NSU Prinz Luxus so you better get used to the idea!'
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I do an analysis of sales of Microcars, mostly on Ebay,
The trouble with eBay is it's so easy to manipulate! :-\
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Don't mention jonathan he's gone off the rails despite a proper upbring - mopeds fgs :)
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What do you mean by manipulate blob ?
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What do you mean by manipulate blob ?
For instance, the seller has another account in a family members name or under a different credit card and bids on it himself! Either way eBay makes money, so although discouraged doubt they care!
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Surely, know one would be so devious - it's against the rules
Regards
Barry (oops, I mean Adam)
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For this reason one shouldn't make eBays results the basis for their valuation, although there have been some bargains.
Guess it's all down to PR in the end, we've all noted auctions with less PR than BW underselling cars.
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Hi
When my two teenage daughters tried to join the Heinkel Trojan club after the first weiner auction, they both had cars which I bought them and they been working on my cars all their lives, and they Just appered on TV - the BBC promoting the first Auction - they both wrote to the club with the joining fee - Then they were told that they were not old enough to join the club - with this snotty letter from the chairman of the club, and if that was worse he'd highlighted the letter in RED ink the words" join when you are 18 and then we may consider your application". My 14 year old daughter was in tears - I still have their cars in the back of my garage- My two daughters wanted nothing to do with micro-cars again - I hope the clubs have changed their attitude towards teenagers.
Mike
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The net effect has to be a bit of a rise in prices I imagine.
Perhaps not across the board. All this auction really established is that any car formerly in the Weiner collection is worth an enormous amount of money. Absolutely any car. Enormous. Even the VSPs not included in this particular sale. Heck, especially those. This is the main message that should be selflessly and wholeheartedly promulgated for the common good.
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What do you mean by manipulate blob ?
Sorry Richard but Im going to have to use the N word! Naive.
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any car formerly in the Weiner collection is worth an enormous amount of money
Agreed, I saw a documentary sometime ago about a French Ferrari collector (his names escapes me), who every so often he lets a car go, the basis of the doc. Although rare and an ex Le Mans winner it far exceeded all expectations, simply because it had been part of this prestigious collection. All his cars were embellished with his own insignia so I guess it's a status thing!
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I think perhaps when you get a lot of wealthy men in that environment perhaps they don't like to back off first . I reckon quite a few will be in the doghouse too. You paid how much ! ..... Ouch ;)
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So now its all over what were the bargains if any and what was expensive and will he do it again?
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So now its all over what were the bargains if any and what was expensive and will he do it again?
The Mk C Bond needing final assembly was a bargain!
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What do you mean by manipulate blob ?
For instance, the seller has another account in a family members name or under a different credit card and bids on it himself! Either way eBay makes money, so although discouraged doubt they care!
You mean this does not happen at any auction? Have you met Mr Wall and his married chums Fone and Netty Bidder? I have. They pop up at the most prestigious of events but really do not like the Ring family who get about a bit too. Ask Bob.
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What do you mean by manipulate blob ?
For instance, the seller has another account in a family members name or under a different credit card and bids on it himself! Either way eBay makes money, so although discouraged doubt they care!
You mean this does not happen at any auction? Have you met Mr Wall and his married chums Fone and Netty Bidder? I have. They pop up at the most prestigious of events but really do not like the Ring family who get about a bit too. Ask Bob.
Oooo, I hope you are not inferring that I was ever part of the Ring family Al! You are right though, let me introduce you to Mr Chandelier! In my experience the auction rooms are one of the most bent institutions in the country in the same league as the banks! Remember the auction of microcars and mopeds up at Leak Staffs a few years ago, the vendor had a chum with a list of what to bid the cars up to standing by the rostrum with his arm on a yo yo string! In this instance it didnt work and as Al said he was able to mop up some bargains after the sale.
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Leek. A great auction as I bought several cars from France via my man and then most of the cars left after the sale at a job lot price. Now if only Bruce's auction had copied that event I would be rolling in weird cars and very very in debt. Hey ho.
Turns out the Zeta mentioned at 11,000 was not a Sport. Classic disinformation there from the numbty division of Microcar Enthusiasts so the comment was pulled if your wondering where it went. If you were not then you missed it making me look a bigger fool than I am already.
I have crunched some numbers and in fact there were some quite reasonable prices given the nature of the event. I am biased toward my own favourites and I can see that the auction will probably nudge up the prices a bit. That is good and bad as there were some things I wanted to trade in but others I am happy to go. So honours even in a way. It really hurts those who are not in ownership at the moment. Much like house prices, assuming you want a house of course. The real winner looks to be Trienkels which performed very well. Bummer, got rid of most of mine some while back. However I am pleased as they at last receive the recognition I felt they always deserved rather than for ever cast in the shadow of the better known Schmitt and Isetta.
A look at the list also shows I own a lot of things not in the museum collection. So that is cool as it shows I still have some genuine weird stuff not exposed to the newer market forces. I can continue to enjoy owning these without worrying about the value/worth issues justifying 'money' sat idle on shelves.
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any car formerly in the Weiner collection is worth an enormous amount of money
Agreed, I saw a documentary sometime ago about a French Ferrari collector...
Ah, that's even better, as it's more specific. Any car formerly in the Weiner collection is worth at least as much as a high-end Ferrari. I'm glad we're in agreement.
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Crikey ferraris at 5,000 now where can I get one of them ?
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Crikey ferraris at 5,000 now where can I get one of them ?
LOL you obviously haven't seen my other auctions on ebay, there are as many cheap Ferraris out there as there are microcars, you just need to know where to look but the prices have gone up since I collected some of mine. I have bought running driving Ferraris for less than you would pay for a rough Isetta project now. It is a crazy world. It's funny the people I know who are into high performance cars cannot understand why I am interested in microcars and the people I know who are into microcars cannot understand why I am interested in the high performance cars. I just say the same thing to them all, I can appreciate all types of cars, does it really matter what it is as long as you like and enjoy what you have. The value is irrelevant if you already own it and enjoy it.
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Correct.
I believe the key here is to buy what you want and not what you think will impress other people. Very often following the crowd comes with a price premium where as doing your own thing does not. A frilly Ferrari is still a Ferrari after all. That it is not posy does not matter if it fulfils what satisfies you in owning a Ferrari.
It is possibly this dictum that has fractured the ownership of Microcars over time. Those from way back had them as unfashionable objects. That their taste and ability saved and promoted the area into what has now become something of a bun fight means there are some folk who feel a little cheesed off that it is their hobby that is currently all the rage. That feeling is made worse if none of the fiscal rewards accrue to those with the fore sight to save the stuff but rather to those who saw the opportunity thus created. I understand that.
I am deeply untrendy and it amuses me greatly when I suddenly become fashionable for some reason or other, be it a top spec 1952 kitchen complete with Kenwood, Avery and Krupp accessories, Eriba Pucks or having Dalmatian dogs. My choice of cars is just another area. Fashion really is very silly behaviour but it maketh money. Being true to you tastes and interests investing in the unwanted saves money. Put the two together and deep joy can found in your bank account if you are lucky in choosing well. Ultimately you might be able to afford something you might really want that is rather expensive. All without apparently trying.
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I spent years going to car boots at 5am on sundays . Bought some very odd thing as I. Love to find the odd things that survived against the odds. 2 objet d'art that I can think of that would surprise - 3 rolls 50's kitchen wallpaper which I loved and friends and family couldnkt get cost pence - they sold for nearly 100gbp and will be gracing someones themed kitchen now , I just wish I could see it . Another item cost maybe 5 gbp and sold again for near 100. Was indeed an early 60's kenwood blender - the buyer paid 60 odd in postage and insuirance to germany . These things are hard to find but I find a thrill in finding them and passing them to an appreciative buyer - mind I have a shedful of stuff where I.got it wrong :)
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Ah, the mistakes. Yep, a shed of them comes with the territory. But are they, if you like them? A few extra bunts from good buys lubricates the hobby and hopefully reduces the negative vibes from partners. It is easy to see why none partnered folk gain extensive collections of 'crap'.
My Kenwood is the first and original Chef type made. There is one in the Science Museum, or such institution. Mine works, theirs does not! Apparently they are pretty rare despite that they look similar to the later, 'improved' versions. Got most of the extras too. It is fully dismantlable and so can be repaired nigh on for ever. Brilliant bit of kit and to good so had to be replaced by stuff that broke! Made a new set of brushes for it last year. Possibly its third set. I wonder if there is a Kenwood club. No, do not answer that question, I do not want to know.
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I've two Kenwood chefs (with lots of the accessories too) - one is a spare, the other in full use by swmbo'd.
Just moved home and it required two very full 18 tonners - and am now settled into the Forest of Dean in a village where there are plenty of old car nuts, but the Forest has been known for eccentricity.
back on topic, Alan is right, buy when unfashionable and hope it comes into fashion!
My best buy ever, one item purchased for £24, sold for £6700 - and, no, it wasn't a car!
Thing is, our cars are fashionable now - that was something that started in the mid 1980s when all sorts of 50s and 60s stuff was to be found in scrapyards - none had microcars, as they had all been spirited away. By the late 1980s, prices were on the rise and a Messerschmitt in good condition was still £1500-2000 then, so is the £15-25k now unreasonable?
People like microcars, you only have to take one to a show to find that out. That popularity equates to demand which, in a finite market, means people pay more.
The market is also global, with collectors the world over wanting to have the unusual and quirky. Expect more to be exported! SO why not do a trade the other way - leboncoin is good for French cars, the distance is not huge and you have something quirky, fun and rare in this country. However, the bottom line is lots of our cars, beyond the few mass produced cars like Googo, Messerschmitt, isetta, were rare even when new and produced in low quantities, making them rarer still today. There are 156 Tigers, but perhaps ten or twenty Inters, a few Reyonnah, one original Isetta pick up, one Messerschmitt Kr201 Sport, one Mi Val, etc.
I'm glad I bought my cars when I did, I couldn't afford them now, nor would I pay the prices. But they are like your house - the money is not realisable unless you want to sell. I don't want to sell and consider my Schmitt of no value as I have no intention of selling it. However, I know what it is worth (ditto the house), but would rather have the car than the cash (or a nice house, rather than rent).
Get used to the high prices and the new collectors - they're here to stay, unfortunately.
This is a blip - the prices were astronomical, as they were in 1997, but the market stabilised afterwards then and saw a steady but slow creep up in prices. as there has been in almost all classic cars.
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The auction house has posted the results:
http://www.rmauctions.com/results/result.cfm?feature=No&category=all&salecode=BW13 (http://www.rmauctions.com/results/result.cfm?feature=No&category=all&salecode=BW13)
This is by lot number, although several other options for filtering and sorting are listed along the right-hand side of the window.
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Indeed they have and I have done my little number crunching exercise to make sense of it and what I am doing. I need to re adjust my activities slightly but like Messerschmitt I am fortunate to have pretty much the cars I want so to an extent the price rise, or a fall, is irrelevant. So the shuffle is in what I do not want and what I do with it. Yep, trading cars spare for something more interesting to me has merit and I had forgotten its possibilities in all the tunnel thinking of being stuck in a rut.
I have now finally bought my long negotiated bungalow, so a relocation, but only three miles down the road. From that fact all new decisions flow and I become master of my destiny again after 7 long years! I can still go to Tormarton Clubnight at the Major's Retreat off J18 of the M4 on the second Wednesday of each month, for instance. Not far from the F of D - nearly moved to the north of it myself.
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I've just had a look at the results and not a lot of it makes sense. The Americans don't appear to put much of a value on there home grown microcars few as they are, that surprises me. They only want European stuff. One of my favourite cars the Rolux, prices realized were comparatively low which gives me hope! Zeta sport, dont they have the Tiger engine in them, if so that was well under priced too. What really made me chuckle though was his noen Inter sign, the maker had even copied the Bond minicar silencer I put on Bruces car! All in all many of the cars I like made considerably less than I thought they would. Anyway, enough about money and values, thats all we seem to get drawn into talking about these days, lets get back to having some fun with driving our cars.