RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on February 23, 2013, 04:57:27 PM

Title: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on February 23, 2013, 04:57:27 PM
like bob i too have had a good day ,just bought my first micro trailer . what should i have verified BEFORE i bought it . it looks to suit my needs perfectly . within budget , long enough, wide enough, width between ramps to suit my 3 three wheelers , will fit INSIDE the garage under one of my cars .
what did i overlook ? please be gentle with me

p.s. it does have a winch
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on February 23, 2013, 06:55:23 PM
Does it have brakes?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on February 23, 2013, 07:09:16 PM
no ! but it's been used for many years carrying micro's without them - should it have ?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: AndrewG on February 23, 2013, 07:38:41 PM
Brakes are only compulsory if the trailer has a capacity of 750kg or more than half the kerb weight of the tow vehicle.

Capacity is gross vehicle weight as stated on the plate on the trailer.  Beware that it is the trailer's capacity not the load it is carrying that matters - a few people towing empty boat trailers with their family car have been caught out like that - in effect, the trailer is assumed to be fully loaded at all times.  You would need to be stopped by a pedant to get caught like that, but apparently some vehicle check-points contain said pedants.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on February 23, 2013, 08:12:28 PM
max load weight would be 645lb - 290kg no idea of the trailer weight . these RUM cars are mainly or completely of aluminium 
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on February 24, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
in the u.k. it's not usual to have a plate , or not on an older one anyway , does that help or hinder ?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on February 24, 2013, 10:23:15 PM
Brakes are only compulsory if the trailer has a capacity of 750kg or more than half the kerb weight of the tow vehicle.

Capacity is gross vehicle weight as stated on the plate on the trailer.  Beware that it is the trailer's capacity not the load it is carrying that matters - a few people towing empty boat trailers with their family car have been caught out like that - in effect, the trailer is assumed to be fully loaded at all times.  You would need to be stopped by a pedant to get caught like that, but apparently some vehicle check-points contain said pedants.

Yes, this means almost all microcars on a trailer will weigh over that so I think you are going to need one with brakes.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on February 25, 2013, 09:48:24 AM
My observation on trailers is not based on what is the legal limit i can get away with but on the facts of use. The recent auction now suggests that it is easy for a Microcar owner to put a car on his trailer worth some £20,000 and a rarity could approach £50,000. 

For me I want a trailer over-engineered for the task so;

I pick a twin axle. This way I can afford a puncture with minimal chance of a lose of control.

I pick a trailer with brakes so that if the trailer should part company it will attempt to stop itself when the handbrake safety cable deploys. A four wheeled trailer is both more predictable and balanced if loaded correctly so less likely to crash.

I pick a trailer that is finitely larger in all dimensions than the cars to be put on it so there is minimal suspension issue if there should be a failure or overhanging car to be damaged by road flak.

That sounds expensive, you might say. Not really as there are quite a few racing car trailers about that are prefect for the task but yet run to about £400 as they cannot really take anything heavier than a tonne nor longer than 12 feet, comfortably. They are normally relatively light weight so cheaper to tow than a full car trailer.

I then match that to a suitable tow vehicle that can boss the trailer about. Larger the trailer the larger the tow vehicle. My trailer tows perfectly behind a Citroen BX, which is a lightweight in modern car terms, of just under a ton (before you say it, with anything over 3/5 load it goes behind the Van).

I also make certain my insurer offers good coverage for trailing rather than take a chance of not reading the policy agreement which normally will not include a trailer or load unconnected to the car. A key phrase that has seen many lost trailers/poorly tied cars not covered during and after calamity, even if the fault was someone else's. Indeed such are the risks of trailing it is one reason I own a van! It is a safer transportation method to have the vehicle inside.

As an old trailer mine has no modern maximum weight stated, cannot remember when all that was reviewed now. It has got a proper towing assembly on the front of the A frame and that has its own allowable towing weight, which I believe is 3.5 tonne. Any pedant would look extremely foolish attempting to apply the rules to that parameter on the rest of the trailer, as it clearly would collapse under the strain. I suspect this trailer would be fundamentally illegal outside Britain because of this lack of ID tag and specification. Certainly the Germans have been ahead of the rest in insisting trailers be subject to firm construction criteria with laws and testing to back it up. The Peka, 1959, carries both the trailer makers plate and the constructors plate marking the specification within the makers specified parameters to class the caravan at 240kg and a loading of 400kg on tow. The info missing on my car transporter, effectively.

Statistically more cars get damaged on trailers than do being driven on the road.

So other than the pedant level I feel I can take the risk of putting a Messerschmitt, Brutsch or such on my trailer. If a Tiger I might think about getting someone in as £90,000 odd dangling behind my car is too much of a risk for me. For the same reason I have to chuckle at the welded bedsteads with wheels passing as trailers that appear behind £25,000 plus campervans loaded with £15,000 worth of car at microcar rallies. The very reason the BUMS started the ironic best trailer at the show award, which later got taken up as a serious prize at certain events!

On the other side of course is the size of garden in which to store the trailer, the size of the available tow car and what is being towed to where and how often. I probably do more towing than most people even now so my solution is a definite requirement for me against the risk over time.

Just in case you think I have become far to sensible in my old age I would point out that recently I was seen towing a Mercedes Benz 190 Fintail on Dave's indestructible transporter behind the old BX. So about 21/2 ton behind a ton of car, just like the old days. The BX coped wonderfully since it has fantastic LHM brakes, suspension, steering. No other car of that size would cope with what was a 4wd load, really. Very naughty but it makes you feel young again.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on March 04, 2013, 01:24:15 PM
Update . Max unbraked towable weight for the vauxhall astra is 685 kg . The trailer weighs just 220 kg . It looks as if my heaviest car is less than 375 kg ( the weight of a bond g saloon - no given weight for my lighter tourer ) therefore 220+375 - 595 kg . I am well within the limits which I presume are overcautious .what's the problem then ?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on March 04, 2013, 02:24:49 PM
It doesnt sound like you have a problem, most trailers weigh more than that.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on March 04, 2013, 02:39:17 PM
There is no public weighbridge for many miles . There is one at the cadburys factory next door to the family business ,that my two brothers now run , rob took it in as he has a contact . They also have a vintage train outside that my dad used to tell us was used to roll out the chocolate
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on March 05, 2013, 07:22:02 AM
The official trade Messerschmitt Trailer the MEC used to have was little more than an axle with welded conduit. The car fitted on in such a way that it cantilevered over in loading and did not need to be tied on. Very clever, incredibly light and better than an A frame really. It did suffer regular weld failure on the axle welds as it flexed with no suspension. It was eventually modified to have suspension outside the club and I think David Tattersall has it up in Southport.
There is nothing wrong with a good light weight trailer. Certainly it is going to be a must if you run a smaller car. I happen to think a bigger one is better but that has its provisos as well. 
As a comparison my Peka caravan is 240 kg to Richards trailer's 220 kg. Visually quite remarkable!
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on March 05, 2013, 08:49:52 AM
Don't know the peka dimensions but did you think the trailer to be heavier then ?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on March 05, 2013, 10:20:39 AM
No. It is just a pictorial demonstration of lightness of caravan to something most folk can imagine a weight of.

Quite frankly I am amazed the Peka has not found a new home. Once I move it again then it will be in lock-down till goodness knows when. If I restore it then there will probably be loads of people who would have wanted it, 'bla bla, hype, hype. If only you had....'. Get that all the time. Given the price of restored small classic caravans, its unique market position as the lightest etc. I would not be surprised to see it sell for over £3,000 back onto mainland Europe. Yet in fact about £500 would see the work done. It never fails to amaze me the lack of imagination within the classic world to see things with clear potential over things that are basically useless and uninteresting. Just as well really or I would not have got most of my cars at prices I wished to afford, so I should not be to rude! Of course now everyone wants a Bubblecar etc. Now everyone wants an Eriba Puck. Maybe I should take moulds of the Peka before restoration.

Trouble with all this is I have no plans to use a small caravan and I have a shed load of projects to do already. However I will also have an empty 1000 sq ft free stash shed not including the mezzanine floor by summers end. Dangerous as I can fill it with interesting junk and prevent other folk from having it. Its traditional!
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Garybond on March 05, 2013, 01:09:09 PM
Big Al your last paragraph is oh so true must be hundreds of interesting bits and pieces people need to finish cars and projects just squirelled away
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: steven mandell on March 12, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
max load weight would be 645lb - 290kg no idea of the trailer weight . these RUM cars are mainly or completely of aluminium 

Why such long ramps on such a low trailer?
Couldn't you get away with cranking up the trailer jack at the front end, and rolling your treasure on board, and then leveling the trailer before attaching it to the ball of your tow vehicle.
I have been wondering if this approach would work for myself, as a neighbor has a small boat trailer with 8 inch wheels and no brakes that I can have for the taking.  As I see it, all that might be needed to pull it behind my Ford Crown Victoria with class 3 trailer hitch, would be a 4' x8' sheet of 3/4" plywood bolted to the frame rails, and the hull braces removed.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on March 13, 2013, 07:46:16 PM
have yet to try loading the trailer the weather in England is not tempting me out to mess around at the moment. the ramps may look long but feel it may be an illusion . a quick look at ebay and most trailer ramps including for motorcycles come in at about 1.8m - 2mtrs. mine are 1.7m  . i have a feeling a steeper ramp may be a little steep . i will see .

delightful to see steven using IMPERIAL measurements easy to forget that they were once a colony . i daren't even ask if your tea is sold by the lb  ;)   
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: ukblitz on March 29, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
Just a picture of my trailor, I made it from the chassis of a French Rapido folding caravan, it has carried Isetta 3 and 4 wheel, Heinkel ireland and [Bond bug at a squeeze], it will also carry  a Messerschmitt, it came without the caravan, just the frame, it is braked with good size wheels, it tows really well, it dosnt need ramps as you can see i just winch it on, when strapped down i can move it about easily, it came with a weight plate, so all in all has been very good so far. :)

Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on March 29, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
This was approx how the light weight Schmitt trailer worked but that was so deft as to not need tie downs. Clearly most folk would not go that far and a trailer for multiple uses has to compromise a bit. Having the axle in the right place offers reasonable control on tipping and moving the whole about. I suspect that trailer could also be stored on its tail if needs be. Great as you can padlock it to the wall.

I did have a canter-levered trailer once, ex Graham Potter. That was a cunning job that needed no ramp as the deck tilted while the frame and axles did not. The problem that relieved itself was the continual failure of the two arms dropping back to support the indispension units. These suffered stress fractures and short of some pretty big steel the design was fundamentally flawed as a lightweight trailer. I believe it is still in use outside the microcar world but with a very modified pair of sides to address the problem.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on March 31, 2013, 07:50:05 PM
well the trailer did what was expected of it - although not a hard challenge . round trip of 700 miles , via brothers and aunties to get the Bond G Tourer rear end .
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on March 31, 2013, 09:15:47 PM
So is that to be mated with a G front to create a new G tourer. A car I had which on reflection I should not have sold. Might not be the biggest Bond fan in the world but the G tourer kicks micro bottom.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 01, 2013, 11:21:39 AM
hopefully it will suit the little lady and self . they only built 50 of the G tourer and there are currently only 6 survivors this making up a 7th - it changes this into this -



well it doesn't necessarily turn Neasdon into Lake Garda but you get the drift eh ?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Garybond on April 01, 2013, 11:47:11 AM
What happened to the rest of the tourer
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 01, 2013, 11:49:35 AM
i have absolutely no idea but happy with the bit i have - the surviving steel including the wheels are absolutely scrap it's been a wreck obviously for many years
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on April 01, 2013, 05:32:29 PM
Ah. Lake Girder fork van. Raleigh, where else could a European tour take a Bond to.

Only 7! Blimey, I really should have kept it. Cannot remember the reg number now but it stayed in the UK at that point even though I am not so sure who bought it. Alan Evans?

Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Stuart Cyphus on April 01, 2013, 05:51:21 PM

Only 7! Blimey, I really should have kept it. Cannot remember the reg number now but it stayed in the UK at that point even though I am not so sure who bought it. Alan Evans?


 You had EKN 113C.  ;D That's the one you had on the trailer in January 1999 when me & Dad met you over the farm. Both of you had beards at the time & I looked over at the pair of you whilst investigating the Bond & there you both were scratching away in unison through your beards! You still had the old VW Lt then too...

 Oop, just found the photo....
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 01, 2013, 08:05:13 PM
photographed more recently whilst rallying in Europe ( together with similarly turned out car GDT 457C owned by the late Terry Bradley , enthusiastically rallied on Bonds Abroad often with his wife and young grand-daughters ) . i think this makes EKN 113C Ken and Rhona Bells .
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on April 02, 2013, 09:34:55 AM
Quote from: Stuart Cyphus link=topic=3735.msg27847#msg27847 date=1364835081
 Oop, just found the photo....
[/quote

And low. There is the counter-levered trailer. You can see that it has a horizontal post carrying the suspension outside the deck which tips up.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: mharrell on April 05, 2013, 06:10:27 AM
For me I want a trailer over-engineered for the task....

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6511396191_eeabe2530c_z.jpg)

I've never used this arrangement farther than a round-trip distance of 4200 miles, so I'm not sure how well it would do beyond that.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on April 05, 2013, 09:53:54 AM
Interesting photo! The trailer could have been made from a reliant chassis with front wheel still in place! :D  Nice to see some one appreciating an old Austin Rover Metro. Wow! 4200 miles, thats a long way to go for a car show! Something that wouldnt happen here on our small isle, besides, we would have to remortgage our houses to pay for the petrol, and thats even using a Metro. :D
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 05, 2013, 10:22:31 AM
great photo , looks a great trailer for the job, a fair test of a trailer i would say ! whats the car ?


 i wonder who invented the plastic portaloo things and did they patent the idea ? ( after bobs episode i always look into the background to see whats going on  ;)
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on April 05, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
Its a KV or KVS. What did you do at Story Richard? Did you not explore the museum?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 05, 2013, 03:31:17 PM
Stoery bob was 11 years ago !! yes i did the museum but have obviously forgotten this one or don't recall the side profile . it still doesn't ring a bell .
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on April 05, 2013, 06:41:06 PM
Well, I'm wondering now if Stuart wasnt right in his remark about the old boys in the hobby not having the knowledge.  ;)


Do you not recall a car with a very simple transmission system, a friction drum driving the axle?
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: richard on April 05, 2013, 06:44:14 PM
no
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on April 05, 2013, 10:20:46 PM
Do you not recall a car with a very simple transmission system, a friction drum driving the axle?

We are back to the Van de Graph generator. Sorry I will be rubbing you up the wrong way. I will keep Cavey while you discuss - no one coming.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on April 05, 2013, 11:44:19 PM
A friction generator is the glass drum Nairne type, invented yonks before the Van de graaff. [thats the correct spelling Al]  The other type of friction generator is the single plate Cuthbertson type. Both a darned sight more reliable than a Van de graaff!  seen pictured here.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: mharrell on April 05, 2013, 11:52:11 PM
The trailer could have been made from a reliant chassis with front wheel still in place!

It's the finest in homebuilt transportation from a total stranger in Colorado.  I bought it third-hand (at least).

Nice to see some one appreciating an old Austin Rover Metro.

MG Metro!  Completely different!  Well, somewhat different.  Okay, fine, not all that different....

whats the car ?

1980 KV Mini 1.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/by_design/0911_1980_kv_mini_1_design_analysis/viewall.html (http://www.automobilemag.com/features/by_design/0911_1980_kv_mini_1_design_analysis/viewall.html)

http://clunkbucket.com/victoire-de-citrons/ (http://clunkbucket.com/victoire-de-citrons/)

Or, should one prefer a British opinion:

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=20473 (http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=20473)
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Big Al on April 06, 2013, 07:15:57 AM
A friction generator is the glass drum Nairne type, invented yonks before the Van de graaff. [thats the correct spelling Al]  The other type of friction generator is the single plate Cuthbertson type. Both a darned sight more reliable than a Van de graaff!  seen pictured here.

Sorry going off topic here.

Van de Graaff, bit gready on the A' there, generator is friction from the belt, if memory serves. As a device the VdG is quite spectacular, if it is a big one, as its dome can support great discharges. Ours was ex Bristol University and came with Prof Davy - yes that family of Davy. Sadly, a brilliant mind, but a poor teacher, unless you were interested.  I have no doubt the same effect would be had using the others with that dome, though. So is the Wimshurst friction also? - double back to read previous info. What in effect is going on is depletion of electrons from one area to another. Mount a variated plate without the friction and you get some induction, towards a dynamo ultimately, but fundamentally a different process.

The arcing produces X rays amongst other emissions and in early experiments scientist overdosed themselves on X ray to the extent that there were more incidence of radiation related health issues with this technology than with the early nuclear industry. Or put another way, the nuclear industry learned from the errors made with experimenting with high voltage discharges. There is a picture of a guy sat inside a Faraday cage in a industrial unit sized VdG with discharges going all ways.

What I do not know is how useful this all is. For instance I know that electricity travels more efficiently at high voltage, see the National Grid. However for use and safety we knock 20,000 volts back to 240 volts, here - other countries different, but in the same area. The currant is better and it does not arc. But is a Wimshurst attached to a windmill in clear air stepped down to 240 volts at the house going to be better than a 24 volt truck alternator stepped up to 240 volts to run you private green world? I ask this with the advice that 240 volt generators to go on a stick cost a lot of money.
Title: Re: richards new trailer
Post by: Bob Purton on April 06, 2013, 09:06:39 AM
You have to remember Al that I'm not a physicist and only knowledgeable on antique instruments, A VDG does work from the friction of the belt on the rollers but is not known as a friction machine and neither is the wimshurst, the latter is known as an influence machine and there is no friction involved, the brushes are just attached to neutralizing rods. The Nairne and Cuthbertson types are always refered to as friction machines. VDG's can be spectactular as you say but can be swines to get started, they are very suseptable to damp and are very fussy about the materials used, one roller must be of a different material to the other ie aluminium and perspex. The belts have to be pure rubber latex as I recall. even printed graphics on the belt can result in it failing to excite. I much prefer Wimshursts.