RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on February 27, 2013, 08:42:17 AM
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I wonder if anyone knows where this shot was taken? Its the first time I have seen a Kliensniggerer with its top up. I love the way the hood is trimmed to allow the side indicator to poke through! Is that a Rollera in the foreground with similar fabric hood?
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Pretty sure its goodwood bob. And it does look lawrences rollera .I have seen them on flikr. 2010 ?
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So is the red backed headlight sticking into the picture Nick's old tie me Zitburn Lighter down Sport. I had been thinking Coronet, but it is really protruding bit of styling in the same comfortably faded red of reality. Nice!
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Yes It's Goodwood.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1745&bih=977&oq=+Kliensniggerer&gs_l=img.12...2415.2415.0.3803.1.1.0.0.0.0.74.74.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.2.4.img.T3ivHaDn4A4&q=Kliensniggerer#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=Kleinschnittger&oq=Kleinschnittger&gs_l=img.12..0j0i24l2.60886.60886.0.63633.1.1.0.0.0.0.77.77.1.1.0...0.0...1c.2.4.img.u2wUJQtfIv0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42965579,d.d2k&fp=1ca08b6947c1840&biw=1745&bih=977&imgrc=EJFPzkP-EjsPmM%3A%3Bc4aAejJ42l4a2M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oldclassiccar.co.uk%252Fphotos-revival%252F131.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oldclassiccar.co.uk%252Fphotos-revival%252Fkleinschnittger_f125_131.htm%3B600%3B450
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I did think is there anyone who I know who owns examples of all those in the picture and Lawrence did come to mind. Would that be the revival? They are not wearing period dress.
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It mentions 2006 revival
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I think the red wing more possibly allard clipper isn't it ?right at the back is that a scrap of frisky turquoise
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I did think is there anyone who I know who owns examples of all those in the picture and Lawrence did come to mind. Would that be the revival? They are not wearing period dress.
But they are carrying period wallets. Except the guy in the cheesecutter hat, not so sure about him?
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Most of the members of this forum that I know are still in period dress :)
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I think the red wing more possibly allard clipper isn't it ?right at the back is that a scrap of frisky turquoise
The Callard (and Bowser) Lipper, You could be right. The headlight is exposing some definite patina. Perhaps a little more than the Zeta offered?
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Generally I think our models look better topless perhaps only as they get older they get covered up eh ?
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Go Compare
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You can see how the front end with the protruding headlights could be mistaken for each other but I think there the comparison ends!
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As someone with an allard sharing a garage with the Berkeley I can safely say in be choice between a clipper and a zeta the zeta sports wins but given the choice of the allard at my mum's or the zeta then the allard wins.
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bob - just seen your original post and observed the spelling of Kleinschnittger - you are getting worse , is it dementia :D
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i believe these are all photo's taken at goodwood revival 2006 by nick mander - now theres a man with a fine Mark A Bond - see pics , see his flikr stream ( where did you find the pic bob )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimothey/sets/72157605845570300/
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bob brought up the subject of rare micro's with hoods up so -
my Bruetsch Pfeil when i first spotted it at a local show - with all trim missing , beetle back lights , lucas front , odd windscreen off ? and a homemade hood - quite well made but totally lacking in sympathy to the Pfeil's curvature
these cars look very " normal" size until someone is photographed in or with it - see the Victoria 250 in Sparrows excellent book
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uh ? :-\ what on earth does that allard/ zeta post mean i have read it about 6 times and cannot make sense - it's like one of big als :)
bob - just seen your original post and observed the spelling of Kleinschnittger - you are getting worse , is it dementia :D
my b95 shares its garage with a real allard.
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uh ? :-\ what on earth does that allard/ zeta post mean i have read it about 6 times and cannot make sense - it's like one of big als :)
bob - just seen your original post and observed the spelling of Kleinschnittger - you are getting worse , is it dementia :D
Well I have to blame Al. he started all the comical misspelling of microcars names so I just chipped in with Kliensniggerer, I thought it was rather good! You complained when I called your car a Brutch Pifel! do northern folk have no sense of humor? :D :D :D
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Moi? I like the 'little laughter', eh?
But given the choice of a chuckle next to a chortle in the hand I prefer a giggle T400. Does that help?
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here you go - another pic of the same gathering from flikr
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So returning to the thread theme, does the BSA Ladybird have a hood?
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well the answer could be yes and no , as 2 prototypes only were built , and the one pictured still exists ,these pics both show the differently built other car with a hood
pic 1 is from an original 1976 issue of motor cycle mag
pic2 is from tony marshalls book - microcars
oops just read through and realise that it was actually a proposed hardtop and not a hood !
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i know bob will love it ;) - the Gordon
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What a shame the Ladybird never came to anything, with BSA resources it could have been a quality product. As far as Gordons are concerned, naaaah I still dont want one.
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don't for a moment believe that BSA meant a quality product especially in last few years in particular ! Vernons also at the time a very large outfit - but they only came up with the Gordon.
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Well yes, I know they were going under and quality way have been on the wain but the company did have a lot of experience and has proper engineers working for them. Just the shell alone tells me it would have been to a reasonable standard, where as Vernons just came up with something as stylish as my grannies coal bunker with engineering to match! If the Ladybird has been eight years earlier who know what may have happend.
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bob ! your grannies coal bunker belongs in the off topic lounge ;D vernons industries did what they knew best - unfortunately they had previous experience making kitchen units of aluminium panels :D
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I guess they just applied there Pools collections ethos to car making, ie taking peoples money and giving them back something not worth having.
Still I fully appreciate that the cars are of local historical interest to you. I'm glad I dont have to go down that path because it would mean me having to acquire a Larmar! :D :D
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well the answer could be yes and no , as 2 prototypes only were built , and the one pictured still exists
Allegedly. Maybe they did not need hoods for the market intended at the time. As to quality, the engine was good in its way. Bit like a twin Heinkel. It suffered from overheating, as it did in the Scooter, and research suggested this was a reason for a lack of orders. Why is it the British seemed to never really understand the concept of cooling small inclosed engines properly? Especially when exported to somewhere hot!
Larmar offered the world a very square deal. What was the problem with that? Well taking the above comment the cooling by a bit of bent metal and a rubber band but at least it had some remote directional air forced infrastructure. Quality motor, a Larmar. Got extras of a lot of things like wheels and fuel tank caps. Pity about the seats but there are a lot of lonely people out there and who are Larmar to not help them be lonely?
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What engine was in a larmar then al ?
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these cars rarely come out of the background
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Sorry Richard. Seemed to miss your question. It was a BSA M10 I believe. The same unit that that was put in some army bikes and semi side-valve 350cc? Not really up on it. It was cooled with added bits of shroud and an extra pulley with a fan on it blowing across the engine. Also had a pulley fed starter somewhat like the Bond Mk C optional extra, doubled with a pull starter from a lever if the battery could not hack it.
The Ladybirds used the Tigress four-stroke twin engine, Palmer design I think. A much more modern unit all round with possible adoption of a bike sized electric starter on a 12v system. Quite a powerful compact little unit which could have seen more service in a British MIcrocar. It was all a bit late on the scene though. Be interesting to put a Tiggy unit in a Trojan.
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pretty sure the tigress was an Edward Turner design al as was the 1938 Triumph Speed Twin the grandaddy of ALL later triumphs
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Looking at the Tourette pic the hood frame is dfiferent to the ex Rob Dobie one, I now wonder if Rob missed a center hoop out of the arrangement? I always thought Robs hood would catch a puddle of water.
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pretty sure the tigress was an Edward Turner design al as was the 1938 Triumph Speed Twin the grandaddy of ALL later triumphs
Yes Turner. Palmer was ZB.
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As I have said to bob already old period photo's are the best source. Al what was/is ZB
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MG Magnet?
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bob i think the height of the first roof rail might determine no puddle , does robs look a little low ? i think the extra roof rail would perhaps rather extend the headroom rearwards wouldn't it ?
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I have been looking at other period Progress pics for the same thing and they all have the center hoop. I think Rob may not have had the original hood to copy to made it as he thought it should be. May be wrong!
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okay we cant see how far forward the hoop is on the red photo . obviously it's one less hoop than the b/w but which one - only you can see whats going on
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MG Magnet?
Yep the very non Micro Magnette
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mopetta - need i say more ? ;)
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Why is this man feeding a Mopetta on a curling court? I hope it has not committed adultery, big granite stones, small helpless Bruetsch.
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My mum used to wear a rain hat like that one! I can see her now on her bicycle complete with Woolworths Pakamack!
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golly so did mine bob :) i can well remember the well protected bonce after her saturday morning perm .
back to hoods then - only two of these cars left i think so it qualifies
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http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2007/11/29/bergfalke-vats-a-bergfalke/
Hood down but good info
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the worst ad ever ? of course for the younger ones that would have read
" DRIVE HER HOME IN STYLE FOR LESS THAN A PENNY A MILE ! " - give that copywriter a lollipop"
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the burgfalke link - lots of info on it and most of it wrong !! nice to see our friend gerry frederics putting his site to the fore without mentioning it's his ! the owner writes saying it's a burgfalke but would like more info. this followed by contributors , including Bruetsch owning charles gould , stating that it's a victoria , it is not - it's a burgfalke presumably the owner has some paperwork to say so or you would not come up with this variant . a variation on a theme but still !
bruce had a burgfalke , one i think he said of the two imported , and also at least one victoria didn't he .
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bruce had a burgfalke , one i think he said of the two imported , and also at least one victoria didn't he .
Yes he did, and it is the same one that is pictured above. Only one is known to exist in the US at this time. It is also the same one pictured in the Hemmings link posted.
I wrote the description card for the car here: http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/burgfalke.html
There is very little information written about the car or the company.
Last fall, someone came to visit the museum collection that claimed that his father worked at the factory, I'm trying to get back in touch with him to see what other information he may or may not have. Another German attendee at the auction itself had a bit more information on the history of the car and the company and hopefully there will be a nice little package about this car available in the future. I know who bought it and it has a good home and will be well-cared for and probably driven and brought to shows, but not restored.
I'd forgotten to put this as a note in my "to do" list, so thanks for the reminder. The rest of this thread is great fun too.
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thanks jim suspected that you must know the story . if i might post just one of the photo's from your link - lovely to hear no plans to restore as that is a car with great history and in super condition
- rare micro with tonneau on -
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the worst ad ever ? of course for the younger ones that would have read
" DRIVE HER HOME IN STYLE FOR LESS THAN A PENNY A MILE ! " - give that copywriter a lollipop"
NIce add AND there wearing Woolworths pacamaks!
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i think you would find the discerning Gordon owner was not a drip ! and would be wearing a felt Trilby,gaberdine Mackintosh and rubber Galoshes bob !
here the other Tourette hood pic- i have also ( i hope ) gone back and posted it next to the other pic to compare - note also very different angle of side screen
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okay we cant see how far forward the hoop is on the red photo . obviously it's one less hoop than the b/w but which one - only you can see whats going on
Maybe the side view will illustrate what I mean better.
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just picture the scene bob the driver upon leaving the car manages to upset the gathered puddle over the head of disembarking passenger :D :D immediate purchase of a Morris Minor - saloon !
actually this missing rail is obviously the same mistake, amongst many , made on my Bruetsch Pfeil - see earlier pic. if there is only one intermediate hoop you cannot get a curve to the vinyl roof therefore giving it an angular outline . the whole point of these cars is the curvy rounded shape which must be replicated in the roof outline . might i suggest first move is replicating a proper curve , as the mopetta, BEFORE deciding on positioning of fasteners and height of roof rails - the curved profile "pramhood" is essential for the tourettes curves
just researching the set-up for a set of hood rails to fit the Bond G Tourer i am working on . i will need to make 2 similar hoops with the same curve but one smaller than the other in order that they fold down into each other - how best to bend and what type of tube is the question - perhaps i will wait until bob has done the hardwork after all i have given him the pics to help him eh ;)
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I am clueless as to what you are talking about Richard, I dont own a Tourette!
As I recall the steel hood frame on my Mkc and D were made of flat steel bar.
Just in case any Americans are reading this thread you do appreciate that a hood is a canvas roof and not an engine cover? , that is a bonnet! I remember some years ago when I sold a certain American museum owner the BMA Hazelcar, I mentioned that it didnt have a hood, he angrily replied, why are all English people in need of a Lobotomy!, [yes quite rude really!] what good is a car to me with no hood?!!! After which I explained that the car had a bonnet but no soft top. He climbed down but by then the damage was done!
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my spelling at fault bob .
americans aren't reading this bob - their just looking at the pictures ;D i am sure they can take the joke :)
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Are you sure you dont want to amend that Richard?
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The more I look at that side view of the hood the more I think that the hood its self could be the right cut, it looks like it has enough sag in it to accommodate the missing hoop without any alterations.
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Are you sure you dont want to amend that Richard?
Why? I got the joke. I thought it was pretty good.
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I didnt want to risk you pulling the plug out on us Jim! :D
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bob i never was very good at trigonometry but i feel that if you put another roof rail in the sides will be all awry .actually they don't look that tight fitting anyway . of course if it were there to try i would definitely try it out
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My guess is that the bottom of the center hoop connects to the lower part of the back one and just angles forwards.
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very possible , in fact the Bond G rails i have been told operate in the same way but the opposite . the main upright is complete and the rear one branches off it . on the car in question you cannot see the bottom of the hoop so i guess you are correct.
if your not into roof rails you will have long since given up on this topic ;D
hello !! bob ? is ANYONE still there ?? oh crikey talking to myself again
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I do hope Wayne doesnt mind us analyzing his car in this way, its just that his is the only one surviving that has a hood, jeans does although Andy did show me once a shriveled pile of old pvc in the shed and identified it as the hood remains! I think it was too far gone to learn much from. I was invited over to look at Waynes car a few weeks ago and it is a great little car, in full working order too.
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that car i would love to see hows about posting that video - a real treat for us
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A Bond G Tourer why not ?
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...and for direct comparison. :)
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for future ref - The Heinkel Convertible
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the Swiss Belcar
the British Powerdrive
The French Rollera
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British Gordon
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for future ref - The Heinkel Convertible
What you see here is the visual basis for a successful argument for keeping the hood of a micro car down. ;)
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A rare one of three? in UK. Without the correct hood-frame.