RUMCars Forum

General Category => Announcements => Topic started by: richard on July 03, 2013, 08:25:30 PM

Title: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 03, 2013, 08:25:30 PM
Hi all  :) meant with best intentions to all. Many times since I joined the forum there have been topics of disagreement within the forum , most of which is healthy . Sometimes topics are posted incorrectly and these seem to be the most contentious . I would ask that members of the forum be more sensitive and indeed sensible . If a subject is posted under general microcar and the moderator thinks this to be off topic then Move it . Should there be a groundswell of opinion that this be wrong we can discuss it. Let's keep microcar for MICROCAR. Off topic for OFF topic . Obviously I post this due to invalid cars yet again proving contentious , and this gets wearing .II would also ask for off topic to be self regulated to less political subjects.  . Opinions welcome HM
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Stuart Cyphus on July 03, 2013, 10:56:29 PM

 Obviously I post this due to invalid cars yet again proving contentious , and this gets wearing.


 If it's wearing for you from your standpoint, consider how much more wearing it is for me from my standpoint. In all honesty, I do find it all extremely insulting to me personally and what I've done for the vehicles for all these years, and indeed it does sometimes really make me wonder at my place within the micro world when I'm in my lower moments. It isn't very nice to browse this forum at times and get nothing but the impression that the micro world does not want invalid carriages around in it, and by dint of that, does not want me around in it.  I know this is a complete over-reaction on my part, but alas that is the real impression that gets presented to me every time we return to the old "invalid carriages and their place" argument, because lets face it, with what sort of vehicles am I most associated with above all others in this world? You don't get one without the other with me & invalid carriages.  Please bear that in mind all those who post.  

  A few people have also noted I've been posting less & less here over the past year of so. Yes, some of this has been due to the above, plus the odd bout of "the old difficulty" inside my head, but another main reason is (And this is not aimed at you personally Richard, but in general terms) that I am heartly fed up of all the bleats of "Off topic!" which gets tossed into, it seems, any topic whatsoever for any reason whatsoever with monotonous regularity of late, so much so that I couldn't be bothered to issue forth on a lot of what's been going on recently, for the very real expectation of "IS THAT REALLY ON-TOPIC?" from those who seem to have just taken it upon themselves one morning to decide forever afterwards what is or isn't like the voice of Him on high.  

 Well, you did ask for opinions....   ;)
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 03, 2013, 10:59:06 PM
Have we been discussing politics recently, I do not recall doing so. I was trying to keep off it actually.

I cannot really see the problem with an interesting discussion continuing. If it is a topic of minimal interest to you then your a mouse click away from not viewing it. Why are Mopeds more acceptable than IC's? I am not greatly interested in Mopeds but I do not go off on one at their very mention. Personally I think French Fridges are off topic but I am not going to make a fuss about it. There have been several good discussions on them leading to factual input from some sources. I know there is more info out there but maybe its the negativity in which certain areas are received that precludes its publication or supply by PM. Now that is getting political so I cannot say more.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 12:27:52 AM
Just want to make clear that I only exist as ONE of the moderators to remove spam and bad language. I dont have any clout as to the making of any rules for the forum etc. All I have ever done is express opinions and preferences. I'm glad that others too are now following suit. You may recall that I was actually not in favour of even having an off topic lounge.
So who is actually responsible for the rules of the forum? A good question, I guess as figurehead of Rumcars it must be Jean and so far she hasn't imposed any other than the afore mentioned language and up till now we have got on pretty well being self regulating using common sense and decency. Long may it continue. We will never all agree on everything, if we all liked the same thing..................................Mother! :D
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: steven mandell on July 04, 2013, 06:08:58 AM
Hi all  Obviously I post this due to invalid cars yet again proving contentious.

Invalid cars contentious? 
Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me.
What is next?  A protest that we have to cast eyes on a disabled person?
Is it morally appropriate to only allow fully abled individuals to drive microcars?
The original Messershmitt evolved directly and was tremendously similar to Fritz Fends invalid carriage.
Should we consider Messershmitt 175s with their hand controlls too similar to the ic that preceded it to be talked about in the micro car forum?
This is clearly being persued to the point of nonsense, or worse yet, an intentional haranguing of one of our most valuable and devoted members who has recently been criticized for being less active with the group while simultaneously and contentiously being told that the vehicles that he is preserving for history are unworthy of being included in the Micro car Forum.
This is unmitigated snobbery,  and I will not sit idly by without exposing it for such.

There is nobody in this club with more micro in his blood than Stuart.
Has anybody else driven a Minicomtesse 140 miles to and from a car show without so much as a back up?
He who has exceeded this feat may cast the first stone.

I personally find many of the more modern enclosed ics t least as intersting as many of the more generally highly  recognized
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 04, 2013, 08:53:56 AM
All missing my point so far really . My whole reason for my suggestion was to end all such sniping entirely ! No insults, no snide remarks just put them - mopeds, ic's etc nicely off topic and surely everyone happy. Aren't they ?
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 09:06:23 AM
Good. More valid opinions.

I just re-read Stuarts article on his trip to Kemble, great stuff. Distance travelled 75 miles at an average speed of 15-17 mph, not 140 miles but a great achievement never the less.

Just for the record RUMCARS is not a club, just a register which happens to have a magazine and a forum.

And yes, I'm definately a snob, one of my nick names at school was Snobby Bobby! ;D
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 09:14:46 AM
Well I would be! Others take it as an insult where as all its really trying to achieve is to be a little more organised.
Maybe chaos should be allowed to reign freely, after all we are all a bits bonkers, we wouldnt be into microcars if we were not! ;D
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 04, 2013, 09:32:24 AM
I might be being thick here but to know what is off topic, first one needs to know what is on topic.
That means an approximated set of rules as to what the forum is covering as its core topics. Rules mean barriers and there will be disaffection, which I think is why such a move has been steered away from. Hence you have 100 people all of whom probably hold a slightly differing opinion of what the forum covers as its core topics. They post according to their set of guidelines and have run foul of a few folk who clearly are opposed to discussions on certain subjects. I have become aware of things that annoy folk and have attempted to drop them in main topics, save for humour, so we can all rub along. New members will not know quite what is form. Its is not good form, therefore, to banish DAF and a new members IC talk, a day after the topic comes up. These guys would be quite within right to think 'What a load of ignorant whatsits' and find someone else to talk to. By all means direct or move the topic on mass to the off topic section, with an explanation. Bob did a few but made a slight error and that got a bit over heated as the timing was unfortunate.  Since then I think he has left well alone as he prefers not to have an argument. Who can blame him. Perhaps your suggestion of being headmaster is not so silly as you could become the topic monitor? Humour used thus would dampen the upset that might be felt in a move to the off topic lounge - also known as Form C, for dunces, serial misbehaviour and looking out of the window.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
That's a most sensible suggestion Al. As a moderater I don't actually have the mechanism to just move topics , when I did it before and got in hot water I was just copy and pasting which is not ideal and why I made a blunder. I think Jim and Chris as administrators are the only ones that can easily move a whole topic. Both of whom are very busy guys.

If we could get a general consensus on this we could ask the administrator to assign this task along with the needed buttons to do the job.

I definitely don't want it but HM may be the man?

I have occasionally visited the Reliant forum and they have complete separate forums for individual brands of car, there is even a separate G-wiz forum, Axaim, etc etc all accessed from the home page. I think that is great and helps people save time and irritation by going into a section that they know will interest them. I wonder if we could do something like that?   
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Barry on July 04, 2013, 10:26:44 AM
The forum is mainly for Microcars. - The main discussion area being 'Unusual Microcar Discussion'

The off-topic is for things other than microcars.

I like (and own) microcars, IC's and 'French Fridges' (Sans Permis).  I also have scooters and the like.

Even though I like IC's and have a bit of banter with Bob, I agree that they are not strictly microcars but very close and associated.
Bob is right in implying that they were a development along the lines of surgical appliances to help disabled people to get mobile.  Not strictly microcars for popular transport of two or more people.

The issue is that the Rumcars forum is really good, well supported and easy to get on with.  It is very open and covers so many different areas. (look at a Landrover forum for instance - great for finding out about what causes a squeek on a TD5 widget but very little variety)

The other issue is that there is not an equivalent forum for IC's and other 'light weight' vehicles.  

Stuart is a great man, really knowledgeable and helpful but he cannot be burdened with trying to develop something as good as the Rumcar forum working in parallel.

The answer, against Bobs wishes but surly to consider, is an IC and light vehicle section - likle the off-topic lounge.

     Unusual Microcar Discussion -     Microcars only (and some wandering off the thread)
     Off-topic lounge -                    Not much to do with microcars like mopeds, aircraft, jazz, amphibious ducks and the like.
     Associated vehicles -                Lightweight cars and IC's for instance.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 10:42:01 AM
Not at all against my wishes, rather bubble heaven!

Can we have some more input on the idea of having seperete sections for seperete catagories much as outlined by Barry?  I would impliment it tomorrow !

If a reasonable proportion agree I can speak to Jean and Jim about it.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: steven mandell on July 04, 2013, 12:22:28 PM
I can see why some self denied, or even self proclaimed snobs wouldn't want some of the fiber glass bodied 500 cc Invacars on their Micro car forum.  Even in their deliberately under tuned state- they can beat the pants off  a Tiger at less than a hundredth the price!
Never the less,  I consider Barry to once again be speaking with the voice of reason here, and would be happy to endorse his reasonable compromise.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: steven mandell on July 04, 2013, 12:30:55 PM
All missing my point sop far really . My whole reason for my suggestion was to end al such sniping entirely ! No insults, no snide remarks just put them - mopeds, ic's etc nicely off topic and surely everyone happy. Aren't they ?
OK, I get it now.
You were just being sarcastic, and the devils advocate by demonstrating your sniping, insulting snide remarks, and suggestion that ICs be segregated to the back of the bus.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: steven mandell on July 04, 2013, 12:37:24 PM


I just re-read Stuarts article on his trip to Kemble, great stuff. Distance travelled 75 miles at an average speed of 15-17 mph, not 140 miles but a great achievement never the less.

Bob, please correct me if I am wrong- but wasn't that the one way trip distance?
If so, I would have under estimated the total trip mileage at 140 miles.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 02:55:36 PM
I just did. Round trip 75 miles. He lives 30 miles away from the event he attended.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: steven mandell on July 04, 2013, 05:05:53 PM
Thanks for the correction Bob.
I guess that makes my installing a larger than stock drive sprocket on my HMV Freeway, and then driving it a similar distance on the Los Angeles Freeways at truley frightening speed in contention for stupid human tricks.
At one point, at top downhill speed, when I found myself in such a state of infactuation that I began chanting "it's a real car",  I realized that I was staring at a diagonal break on the pavement demarkating about a 2" change in the height of its surface.  The stock steering and suspension produced severe bump steer- so I knew that my vehicle was about to be violently thrust one way, and then the other in rapid succession.  Like Mr. Ralf Nadir's test manuever that got the early Corvairs to flip at 27 and a half m.p.h.
I held my breath and tucked my head down.  After the double bangs of my right, then left front tire hitting the bump, I found to my amazement that even though I was now in a different lane- we were still upright!
I drove more slowly the rest of the way home, put the vehicle up on jack stands, and spent the next year anayzing and correcting the multitude of design and material faults in the vehicle's suspension and steering system.
End result- I hav undoubtedly the best handling Freeway in existence, and I haven't drven it on a Freeway innearly 20 years.
Oh well
, at least I'm alive to tell the tale.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 04, 2013, 07:00:01 PM
If the option of branded topics exists and it is not an irksome task to host and run for our leaders it is a grand idea to separate a few threads. I hold no grudge against anything really but I agree IC is an ideal spin off. It might help our little chubby buddy, in fact. Now I will show my ignorance. Do Scootacar, Goggo, Nobel have forums? They have there own registers but lean to a greater or lesser extent on RUM none the less. Brings more to the game afoot. Do light car need a thread? I am uncertain. Perhaps we all are and there is a demand as these are much more in evidence as everyday drivers being that little more able to cope with modern traffic and manners.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 04, 2013, 07:26:01 PM
go with barrys formula for me , but it would still need someone to move those ( accidentally , or deliberately - it does happen  ;)  ) posted incorrectly . that was my only real point . i wanted no further upsets or awkwardness . all much nicer all around  :)
The term Light car has already been around  for many years and you cannot really redefine it . the magazine Light Car was in circulation from at least the 1930's until the 1950's and covered the smaller Austins etc. it is apparently still in use by such as the RAC .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_car
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 07:31:16 PM
Wow that was quick! We now have a Sans permis and IC forum. I think this is going to work well for everyone. Stuart and Barry as moderators, I wonder if anyone asked them? :D  We may not even need someone to switch misplaced threads, lets see what happens. Many thanks JIM!
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 04, 2013, 07:42:36 PM
hmmmm not what i was after at all but i will have to go with it . as far as i see a sans permis IS A MICROCAR  :-\ and now it's off microcar - weird ! barrys suggestion had been " associated vehicles " why did sans permis ever end up there as well ?
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Barry on July 04, 2013, 08:47:31 PM
Tricky

Sans Permis because you don't need a license (in France).

I am guilty of thinking we all live in England but this is a global forum.  For people in other countries they may well be recognised as microcars?

To me, Sans Permis does not qualify as a real microcar because they were never type approved for use on the road as a licences vehicle.  



This is OK for early 50cc Sans permis but of course rules changed and cc changed and then they had numberplates even in France.  My 50cc Ligier JS4 has a French number plate.
It's possible to get an Acoma Minicomtesse (etc) on the road in England but you have to change a few things to do it.  Also, they don't get up to a speed of 30mph - is this a requirement for a Microcar.
How practical is a 50cc Sans permis car from France on English roads?


Bamby, Curser and Peels qualify because they were licensed vehicles.  There are always grey areas.

Perhaps they should be included under the Microcar forum - perhaps not................................................Fight.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 04, 2013, 08:55:35 PM
it seems to me that to stop i.c. interests getting offended by being " off topic " we now class sans permis as " off topic " so as to keep them company , strange logic . has anyone else told the sans permis owners that they no longer own microcars - they might be surprised to hear it  ;)
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 04, 2013, 10:27:22 PM
Yes, this wasnt what I envisioned either, I thought sans permis would remain with the unusual microcars and IC's and light cars would have there own section. Can we change this Jim?
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Barry on July 04, 2013, 10:42:44 PM
I think I have confused things thinking that Bob was happy / wanted to have Sans Permis out side of Microcars.........

I just miss-read the thread (I think).

So Sans Permis is in with Microcars?


 Unusual Microcar Discussion -     Microcars including Sans Permis (and some wandering off of the thread as is bound to happen)
     Off-topic lounge -                Not much to do with microcars like mopeds, aircraft, jazz, amphibious ducks and the like. (social lounge)
     Associated vehicles -            Lightweight cars and IC's . (if you don't like them then don't read it)
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Bob Purton on July 05, 2013, 07:15:17 AM
It looks like JIm has changed it to IC's and associated vehile which covers most things. Lets see how this goes.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: richard on July 05, 2013, 08:54:48 AM
I also hope this ends any dissatisfaction . In fact we now can post anything as long as its done correctly - I fully intend to post on micro but as usual I will read all.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 05, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
I think I have confused things thinking that Bob was happy / wanted to have Sans Permis out side of Microcars.........

I just miss-read the thread (I think).

So Sans Permis is in with Microcars?


 Unusual Microcar Discussion -     Microcars including Sans Permis (and some wandering off of the thread as is bound to happen)
     Off-topic lounge -                Not much to do with microcars like mopeds, aircraft, jazz, amphibious ducks and the like. (social lounge)
     Associated vehicles -            Lightweight cars and IC's . (if you don't like them then don't read it)


'T was I who think. Much as you, I class Sans Permis as not Microcars but an associated area of there own interest. They slide passed the 1970 date too. Now of course RUM is not restricted to a Classic interpretation of Microcar. These cars are, in the main, minimalist. So qualify on that basis. But so are later enclosed IC. So you have a conundrum. I think Sans Permis would benefit from their own thread. IC as a guest thread along with light car, possibly cyclecars, as the earlier versions do drift a long way from Microcars, unless you are including electric cars as Microcars. I do not. However there is clear interest, so let it be.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Rob Dobie on July 05, 2013, 02:03:23 PM
What has happend to this Forum? Can't we put on new topics anymore? There doesn't seem to be a box to tick !
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 05, 2013, 03:14:56 PM
I also hope this ends any dissatisfaction . In fact we now can post anything as long as its done correctly - I fully intend to post on micro but as usual I will read all.

Well why separate the topics at all. :D  Here come de Judge, etc. Well headmaster anyway. Molesworth called them beaks so that's good enough for me, Fatherington-Thomas
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Jim Janecek on July 05, 2013, 03:26:08 PM
What has happend to this Forum? Can't we put on new topics anymore? There doesn't seem to be a box to tick !

Nothing has "happend" (sic) to the Forum.
You cannot start a new TOPIC from within an existing one.
To start a new topic, go to the main page for that category that lists all the topics and find the "New Topic" button on the right.

Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Rob Dobie on July 05, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
Oh dear, what with my spelling mistake happening as well I must have had a senior moment. I think I will crawl back into my cave again.
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Jean on July 05, 2013, 07:29:46 PM
Hi Everybody,
Sorry for the delayed reaction but I have been rather busy with other things.  I am responding to an early quote from Big Al on this Topic and adding some thoughts on what I feel new Topics should cover.

Now I will show my ignorance. Do Scootacar, Goggo, Nobel have forums? They have there own registers but lean to a greater or lesser extent on RUM none the less.  


I wish to refute some of the statements that have been made about the Register of Unusual Microcars that have been made by various people in this topic. First and foremost Nobels, Goggomobils and Peels DO NOT HAVE THEIR OWN REGISTER they are and always will be part and parcel of the Register whose data is now handled by Alastair Lauchland.  The people, call them section leaders or overseers, what you will, who so kindly write in RUMCAR NEWS and maintain  contact with the owners of the cars, feed all information about new cars found and changes of ownership back to Alastair. He is the only person who can issue a unique RUMCAR number to a vehicle; these numbers incidentally are recognised by the DVLA.  The only totally independent Registers are the Scootacar and the Frisky ones set up by Steve Boyd and John Meadows respectively  at about the same time as the Register of Unusual Microcars which I founded in 1980 for all three and four wheeled vehicles with engines of under 700cc and small electric vehicles not covered by any other one make club.  They should be road legal and not mass produced..

The invalid carriages crept on to the Register in the late 1980’s when Michael Lawrence of the Disabled Drivers Association appealed for me to help out in the early days of DVLA V765 Scheme as I had been authorised to approve vehicles applying to keep their original registration number.  We were the organisation closest to their specification and DVLA agreed that with Mikes help I could authenticate their invalid carriages. After Mike’s death I carried on until Stuart came on the scene and we agreed that he should take on the Invalid Carriages, seek recognition in his own right from the DLVA and split away from the Register of Unusual Microcars.  I feel was most appropriate as Stuart wished to include the older pedal powered ones as well as the newer mobility scooters, not because they were in anyway inferior to microcars as their were too many very close connections.

I do not agree that the ‘Sans Permis’ cars should be lumped together with Invalid Carriages in one Topic. They are in my opinion a microcar and should have a Topic of their own as should the Mopeds and Scooters then those people who are not interested in a particular Topic don’t have to read them.  Simples!!

The ‘Sans Permis’ vehicles do present the Register with a whole new set of problems and
and both Chris and I would be most appreciative of an expert volunteer who would be prepare to overseer that section  on our behalf.

I trust will dispel some of the myths.  Jean
Title: Re: moderators moderate
Post by: Big Al on July 05, 2013, 11:09:53 PM
There we have the core statement of intent. So around that and the comment prior are we nearly there? Cannot think of more to add myself.

As a digression when started the Goggo Register I did note down all the car details, indeed I still have them somewhere. Clearly the Register defunct into a more loose accumulation. I am not surprised, as so few Goggos were about and even now, with imports, they are not a great force to be reckoned with.