RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: steven mandell on January 01, 2014, 04:25:33 PM
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I know that they stopped being produced in 1958, but there had to be some good mechanics, if not factory personnel, maintaining these cars for at least a decade after that. A somewhat younger mechanic from that era should still be cogent enough to add the voice of experience to my usual wonderings, and thus could save me the huge amounts of time that I have been wasting trying to rectify many of the idiosyncratic mechanisms that no longer function as intended.
I am well aware that some of the original engineering was sub optimal, and will be happy to try my lot at improving some systems for the sake of enhancing drive ability. But for me to have to waste inordinate amounts of time discovering what someone else already knows from historical experience runs counter to my New Years resolution to work smarter.
Alan Budd has been extraordinarily generous by providing me with an owner's manual and wiring diagram before I had known to ask.
He also allowed me to buy the transmission that I so sorely needed. But I don't know if he is a Petite mechanic per se, and has not answered my emails requesting a phone number for several days now while I waste my time blundering onward.
Alan Hitchcock is perhaps the single most knowledgable all round fountainhead of micro mechanical knowledge.
He has been enormously helpful in getting many micro car mechanical mysteries, including Petite ones, solved.
However, the Petite is one of the very few English micro cars that he has not chosen to own, so the telephone number of someone with the quintessential voice of Petite experience would still be appreciated.
Thank you all for any leads that you may choose to provide, and a Happy New Year to us all.
Steven Mandell
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If you read RUMCAR NEWS on a regular basis you would know that Alan Budd is our expert on all things AC Petite and that he writes an article in the magazine each month. He does a tremendous job on a voluntary basis and can hardly be expected to answer phone calls during a holiday period. Jean
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I will be happy to subscribe to your magazine as well as buy past issues that deal with technical articles that deal with my quests.
Is there an index that would help me narrow down my search for same?
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I think you are grasping at straws Steven if you think you will find an AC Petite mechanical expert to solve all you issues. They are very obscure and an "expert" will be even more so. Alan Budd doesn't do all his work himself on his car but uses Villiers services. You may want to speak to them. I'm not saying that Alan will not be able to help you though. With these very unusual cars its often a matter of learning for yourself as you go. You should subscribe to RCN anyway. I'm shock to hear that you are not already doing so.
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I heartily concur with both jean and bob ;)
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I think you are grasping at straws Steven if you think you will find an AC Petite mechanical expert to solve all you issues. They are very obscure and an "expert" will be even more so. Alan Budd doesn't do all his work himself on his car but uses Villiers services. You may want to speak to them. I'm not saying that Alan will not be able to help you though. With these very unusual cars its often a matter of learning for yourself as you go. You should subscribe to RCN anyway. I'm shock to hear that you are not already doing so.
Hey Bob,
Nothing obscure about whether a mechanic has spent significant time trouble shooting these cars, and verifying that he is still breathing. Hard to find- yes, but considering the number of Petites originally built and the fact that they probably actually travelled the roads in your country for at least several years, it does seem likely that there would be a few qualified mechanics still out there. You know how helpful this can be as you have helped me out with a couple of jams that I've got myself in for lack of information on my Nobels. Thanks again for helping me sort out the hubs and springs correctly.
Big Al and Alan Budd have both been extremely helpful getting me information that they had available to them. I did just now finally leave an in depth telephone message for Alan Budd with the exact info requests that I need answered, after emailing him these same requests to both email addresses a number of days earlier.
The Villiers engine and car's electrical system are so simple that I have been able to successfully muddle through problems with these systems on my own. It is the Burman gearbox and clutch actuation mechanism as well as the column controlled shifting mechanism (on a rear engine car!) that has been giving me headaches. They suffer from poor design/ materials as well as both idiosyncratic and enigmatic as well as at least partially unknown (to myself) set up procedures that undoubtedly contribute to the car's reputation for terrible shifting. I've done plenty of learning as I go, its time to cut to the chase and hear the voice of experience over the telephone lines.
My intention is to get the car shifting as good as it ever was designed to, BEFORE making mods to allow it to probably end up being the best shifting Petite there ever was. This way I can keep it as original as possible whilst creating a good driver.
When I first attempted initiation of my subscription, I was simultaneously trying to find out which back issues I should bundle in, so as to complete a most useful compilation of articles related to the technical aspects of the microcars that I own. At that time a contributor/ member advised me that the articles relating to the specific makes that I was interested in were not to be expected to be primarily technical in nature. I am a grease under my fingernails, grass roots microcar enthusiast that lives to get all my microcars on the road. So I repeat my requests; 1) is there anyone out there that can help me get the data that I am in need of
2) Is there an index of past issues that would accurately identify what technical issues for which cars were gone into with each issue? I am particularly interested in AC Petite, Nobel, Peel, and Frisky articles.
Thank you,
Steve
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Dear Steve
I have the list of articles in the back issues of RCN. However I do not think it will tell you what you want to know as it only lists the articles on specific cars, not the regular register reports, or what issues were discussed in each register article.
I will email you the back issue list, but I warn you not all of the back issue are available, Some I have rebuilt as electronic issues, some we have as paper issues and some are just out of stock.
I am assured by those that know, once you start reading Rumcar News, you will become hooked. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Chris Thomas
Rumcar News
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Thanks!
Perhaps I could even pm the authors of the regular register reports for their suggestions, in addition to requesting the issues that have articles about the cars of my interest.
Anyway you look at it, seems like I'm in for some fun readings.
Should help revive my spirits during frustrating times of being stuck in microcar mystery. :)
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best of luck with your enquiries steven :D :D
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Both Richard and I were treated to a ride in Alans Petite at the National rally last year, I think I can safely say that the gear shifting is truly awful and if ever there was a case for a modification it would be this area of the car. The performance is as I think Richard described it "underwhelming" All the same there was something about it that I found appealing and can fully understand why you want to get your sorted. I still think you will be working it out for yourself though.
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I wonder if Stuart might have any ideas? I know there's little in common between AC's invalid carriages & the Petite, but perhaps someone who worked on one might have had experience of the other.
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Or could try the AC owners club but looking at there website I guess they would deny any knowledge of AC ever being involved in three wheelers or conveyances. http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/default.asp
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What else was that villiers set up used in ? No idea , was it "industrial" ? , a cement mixer perhaps ? ;). Or am I just stirring it :)
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Yes it was industrial, with a full sized automotive starter and exposed ring gear.
It features a triple fan belt drive to the remote gearbox and flywheel with chain drive to a separate full differential.
Cobbled together a bit like a backwards Berkely, but with perhaps a better engineered differential.
The cars were recognized as having good suspensions and a soft ride, and were advertised as being able to "cruise at 35 mph all day" while getting 60 mpg.
Notice that the jack stands in the picture are obviously ahead of the cars center of gravity.
Thus the greater amount of tendency to roll being handled by a full width axle with fully independnt suspension and coil springs.
Hence the reports of good ride and handling.
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Yes, I can confirm the good comfortable ride of the Petite. My ride in Alans car demonstrated that. Now that you have said that it was only meant to go at 35mph that does explain why Alan didn't want to take the car on the Saturday drive out. He kept saying that he would not be able to keep up. I know he was worried about getting up a hill local to the camp site that to any other microcar would not have posed much of a threat. I offered him a ride and we did the run out together in Thumper. Most enjoyable except for a very slow start due to the pesky James May and all his film crew slowing us down. I dread to think what the program he was making will be like but just the bit we witnessed them make was studded with inaccuracies.
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Perhaps Alan's car wasn't running as good as it should.
A 1955 test of the Mark 2 published in Motor Cycling magazine shows the top speed to be almost 49 mph, however it took over 45 seconds to reach it.
They state that it has " more than the usual quota of low speed pulling power, making the Petite virtually a top gear vehicle and one ideally suited to work in hilly country." They go on to state that "Mr. Villiers " usually had top gear held down to 14 m.p.h., pulling away quite happily from this speed." They also state that it cruised at 40- 45 mph, but the mechanical phonage made its presence known above 40 mph.
The previous owner of my car called his Nobel a "dog" in comparison speedwise, but I don't believe that he ever had his blue and white (and red striped) one running correctly. Being an industrial engine designed for 3500 rpm grunting, it does make sense that low speed pull would be good, but top speed more limited, and the time taken to get from one to the other to be lengthy. My test runs in first and second gear seemed consistent with such an assumption, as maximum revs were reached rather quickly.
I understand why 3rd gear results were crossed out in the below tester's performance graph, (down load for legibility) as with only 3 forward speeds, top gear was 3rd gear. But can anyone explain why the 0 to 30 mph run appears to have taken longer than it did during the indicated standing quarter mile run?
Also, why does it give a "flying start" speed as the speed over the measured quarter mile? What speed does a flying start begin at, and why do I not see it indicated on this chart?
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Which reminded me of this epic tale from The Motor Cycle 19th January 1956.
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The dramatic climb on the last page is still there today - near the Fingle Bridge Inn, Drewsteignton in Devon.
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Truly enchanting, but hard to imagine two grown men having anything good to say about trudging up hills at 10 mph, or through fog at 20 mph. while stuck in a microcar for a more than 400 mile trip.
They must have been previously severely traumatized by the elements in prior endeavors on two wheels, to show such appreciation for the minimal amenities of the heater less Petite. :D
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Alan Budd took me for a ride in his Petite at a RUM Open Day about 4 years ago and its performance is modest but comfortable. Alan told me that he particularly likes driving along empty country lanes in a very relaxed and calm manner, enjoying the changing view. Driving does not have to be about speed thrills!
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Gratefully granted that the Petite had a more comfortable and apparently adequately stable ride for a reasonably cautious pilot of the day.
But if equipped with modern braking, (the Petite didn't even come with a front brake, which is where cars typically accomplish 70% of their braking), the single front wheel design would likely prove rollable at speeds below the 27 and a half mph speed which Ralph Nadir successfully prosecuted the Corvair into extinction for a mere 6 years later. This instability would be especially significant if carrying two heavier adults, and having to hit the brakes whilst turning sharply in an emergency avoidance maneuver on a downhill grade, as the effect of both weight centers and weight transfer under braking and turning loads to a front corner of a car not equipped with a wheel to resist this could be over turning. The fact that these cars were both under powered and underbraked ironically allowed them to bypass such scrutiny.
But try going up a hill at 10 mph with no passing lane today, and see how understanding the line of drivers behind you is. Heck, if I am slowed to 45 mph in my Honda Insight whilst travelling the freeways, I'd be run off the road if I didn't promptly scoot into the climbing lane for 18 wheelers, where sometimes even one of these will move into the main lanes to pass me.
Note that Alan's comment was reserved for roads when there was no traffic to speak of.
Modern cars do everything so well that today's drivers, although pleasantly amused by micro cars, would never have the patience or bravado required to pilot one. In the last article, the author praises the car's luggage capacity as it provided enough space for their luggage and chocolates. The Petite comes with but a modest parcel shelf, that if appreciably loaded, would block your rear vision.
They remarked how comfortable they were driving in heavy coats and clothing needed because the Petite didn't even come with a heater despite the air cooled engine being at least a source of easily ducted heat.
And even the motorcycles of their day were were going faster than their 20 mph in the fog. Could their single headlight been brighter than the Petite's duo?
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As I read some of your comments Steve, I ask myself why do you even bother with microcars? Jean
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Because they are endearing for all the same reasons that they are impractical.
If I had to rely upon them for transportation, I'd be in big trouble.
But I don't, so despite the loads of frustration they can provide trying to get or keep them road worthy (please excuse the apparent oxymoron)- they are just for fun!
Who couldn't like an adorable puppy dog?
[Lying on sidewalk straightening Petite aluminum fender spat as we speak]
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I fear an AC Petite mechanic never actually existed. Villiers Services should know about the engine but I am less sure they will have any depth of knowledge on Burman gearboxes. Its going to be either a Bike box modified or an industrial type unit that has been adapted to fit a car as it has reverse. Given that AC made industrial and plant machines for a living, Auto Carriers, clue is in the name, my plump is its industrial. Therefore few bikers will instantly recognize the gearbox either. That leaves you with the industrial/plant/light small holdings machinery group as best port of call. Since a lot of these guys spend weekends watching a pump recycle water out of, and back into, a bucket, I am not sure quite how speedy an answer you might get. But there is a club for these things, several actually. Its a big hobby and I should not take the 'mick' really.