RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on February 07, 2014, 07:06:06 PM

Title: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 07, 2014, 07:06:06 PM
As some may know Chris Thomas and I have long wondered what windscreen was used on the Progress Tourette. As a small fledgling manufacturer we have always assumed that Carr brothers would have used a screen from a contemporary car to keep costs down. We were privileged to have a guided tour of the Pilkingtons windscreen factory today, the one that remakes all the classic car screens and armed with an old Progress windscreen we were confident that the old timers there along with their data base would be able to identify it for us. No such luck!  A screen from a Riley 1500 came reasonably close but was far from a match. So, it remains a mystery!  Unless you know differently???????
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 07, 2014, 11:23:17 PM
Did you check out the rear screens, These are narrower than front screens so offer a smaller screen for the front of a small car. See Goggo Dart
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: steven mandell on February 08, 2014, 08:13:52 AM
That would make it the epitome of Bob's efforts at reverse engineering.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 08, 2014, 08:47:16 AM
I still have a 'what is that off' screen pile. Bit buried at the moment and probably down to 10 items. Found two Scootacar screens over the years clearing places out. Chudliegh Auction of NSU dealer, I got some 100 screen for £2, to get a Scootacar screen. But also unknowns. Frisky and so on. Never throw anything away. Of course the joke is I need a Scootacar MK2 screen now but probably have rarer stuff.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 08, 2014, 12:45:07 PM
Yes, rear screens are also on the data base. I understand your assumption that we are looking for a smallish screen Al but with a Tourette its not the case, the screen is very wide for a microcar. Wider than the riley 1.5 we looked at.
As we toured from workshop to workshop by coincidence we spotted on a bench the buck for making Isetta bubblecar screens, I mention this to our guide and he pointed out it was for the French version, he didn't know it was called Velam. Apparently someone in France has ordered a batch of them!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 09, 2014, 12:03:05 PM
Handy. I would like one for my car.

Not a prob on these as they were originally laminated. The Riley is one of the narrower cars of its era. I wonder what it might be. On the basis they nicked the Knott suspension it might be worth seeing what, if any, cars they imported and dealt. They would have trade access too that stock, meaning it was cheaper.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 09, 2014, 01:21:39 PM
Well what ever they used it was an appalling fit! Anybody having a new one made would be advised to have one made that actually fits. It's a strange scenario, they changed the body shell and gave it a level curved plinth for a windscreen frame to sit on and then fitted a screen and frame that only sat on the plinth at either end, the centre front overhangs the plinth and is amateurishly covered up with a strip of rubber. The rubber is vertical at the centre and horizontal either end. It was obviously a series of compromises. Strangely, the riley screen although being too small did have a more suitable curvature.
Note these pics of this car, the other surviving example is the same.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: steven mandell on February 09, 2014, 06:44:40 PM
Can laminated glass be carefully ground on its edges, and kept cool enough to keep it from cracking?
Anybody tried this with a showered or submerged windshield?  Tile and brick is often cut this way.  I know it keeps the dust down, but has to keep the temperature, and hence temperature gradient down also if done right.
Got an old, even broken windshield to experiment with?
Then again a good glass or the windshield shop you visited may already know.
Of course, you would still need to remake the frame bottom.  But that should only prove to be conventionally bothersome.

Fascinating collection!  Is it Jeans?
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 09, 2014, 06:53:26 PM
Laminated screens are cut with high pressure water apparently.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: swanktank on February 09, 2014, 06:57:16 PM
I bought a new laminated w/screen from a friend who had had 3 made. When I could not fit it, I discovered it was a gnat's eyebrow too big. A local glass shop was able to shave it down successfully (though the first thing the chap in the shop said was, "It will probably break".
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 09, 2014, 07:08:35 PM
Edgy things.

Shot in the dark, NSU/Necker 1100/1300 Fiat.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Jim Janecek on February 09, 2014, 07:15:46 PM
laminated glass is simply two sheets of glass glued together with a plastic piece in the middle to prevent everything from flying apart into sharp bits if broken. This make it ideal for front windscreens that may encounter a stray rock and keeps a chip or crack from spreading throughout.
The laminated aspect makes the glass piece -as a whole- stronger than a simple sheet of glass as well.

I once had to punch a hole in one to make it appear as though an object (driver's head) had gone through it.  I ended up slamming it several times with a bowling ball to get the right look and then carefully snipping away the parts I did not want.  Strong stuff.
As Al points out, cutting must be done differently because you cannot simply score the glass, then snap it.  You would only be scoring one of the pieces, not the other.   Shaving along the edge can be done because you are shaving BOTH pieces of glass at the same time.

It is not the same as "tempered" or hardened glass which is heat treated and much stronger than normal glass.  You can hit it in the centre with a hammer and it won't break.  But tap it on the edge with a pointed object and you pierce the external "hard coat" and release all the "interior" that is under tension.  It all breaks at once into smaller, rounded shards.  You cannot cut tempered glass.  It is cut to size, THEN tempered.
Despite my comments about external and internal, it is a single sheet of glass.  The properties have just been altered by the heat-treatment.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 09, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
I'm not going to give too much away but if you look out for a future RCN all your questions will be answered.
I will say that I have a mate who restores classic cars in Australia who cuts down larger laminated screens to smaller ones. He uses a standard glass cutter but has to score both sides. He has been doing this successfully for years!  Jim's right, you cannot do this with a toughened glass one, it just shatters. I play around a lot edging down lenses and alike, its amazing what you can do with a diamond disc.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Chris Thomas on February 09, 2014, 10:44:30 PM
Dear Bob

I was once told The secret of cutting flat laminated glass sheets is to score one sheet, pour a little lighter fluid into the crack and light it so it melts the central plastic sheet then snap the second sheet on a straight edge. This only works for straight cuts. How you do it with a curved cut I hate to think.

The article is coming together well

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: steven mandell on February 09, 2014, 10:52:17 PM
So, do any of these suggestions seem like a reasonable way of reconfiguring your Tourette shield's base to a more appropriate contour?
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 09:03:56 AM
Dear Bob

I was once told The secret of cutting flat laminated glass sheets is to score one sheet, pour a little lighter fluid into the crack and light it so it melts the central plastic sheet then snap the second sheet on a straight edge. This only works for straight cuts. How you do it with a curved cut I hate to think.

The article is coming together well

Chris Thomas

Interesting. Peter has never talked me through exactly how he does it but I dare say there are more than one method. He is not back in England for six months but I will ask him on his return.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 09:05:41 AM
Laminated screens are cut with high pressure water apparently.

That's not what we saw!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 09:21:16 AM
Edgy things.

Shot in the dark, NSU/Necker 1100/1300 Fiat.
I've got to hand it too you Al, this Fiat 1200 of 1957 has a screen very similar!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Chris Thomas on February 10, 2014, 09:27:40 AM
Dear Bob

You may be lucky. Smith brothers of Purley were Fiat agents and they were the company that converted Fiat Tipolino to convertibles, so it would have been easy for Carr Brothers to get Fiat screens. However if that was the case the markings on the glass would show an Italian glass manufacturers name

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 09:34:51 AM
Good point Chris. Both the original screens that survive are British. I still think the speed boat screen theory has some credence. Its just as well I don't have a Tourette really isn't it!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 10, 2014, 12:35:25 PM
If its any help at all I could , at the weekend measure a standard pre-war Fiat Topolino screen Bob - see my Flikr stream or search my topic of Topolino on here
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 01:23:00 PM
I thought they were flat?
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 10, 2014, 01:49:28 PM
Can't remember and I am mobile this week but you could see  :)
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 02:03:01 PM
Yes, they are flat. The Fiat 1100/1200 is 1957, much later.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 10, 2014, 09:06:06 PM
I was thinking German version - would that be Italian glass. What did Carr Brothers deal in? Might be a car, like the schmitt, that was imported as a knock down kit and finished here to avoid taxation. Possibly how the suspension came to their attention in the first place. The pattern manufacture of screens would have been pretty quick as they are not an easy to transport item and offer an easy under pricing of original parts, even Fiat! Is the Tourette a laminated screen, these were not as common in '57. Spec for UK might have been toughened glass, or vice verse.

Speed boat is possible. I am trying to think of a car that had a boat screen and forgotten what it was. Something like a Silhouette. 
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 10, 2014, 11:14:22 PM
I was thinking German version - would that be Italian glass. What did Carr Brothers deal in? Might be a car, like the schmitt, that was imported as a knock down kit and finished here to avoid taxation. Possibly how the suspension came to their attention in the first place. The pattern manufacture of screens would have been pretty quick as they are not an easy to transport item and offer an easy under pricing of original parts, even Fiat! Is the Tourette a laminated screen, these were not as common in '57. Spec for UK might have been toughened glass, or vice verse.

Speed boat is possible. I am trying to think of a car that had a boat screen and forgotten what it was. Something like a Silhouette.
The Tourette had a toughened screen. Don't understand your comment on the suspension? Are you talking about Schmitt, Tourette?? They are not connected.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 11, 2014, 10:37:02 AM
Thought Tourette had Knott front bits. Or is this a problem related to none original cars confusing folk? I mean all real Peels had Citroen seats, didn't they. Ho hum.

Anyway the principle is some cars did not arrive on these shores in a driving condition, ducking a taxation band. Importers, trade contractors or dealers had to assemble the final parts from the kit into a car. It sounds like Carr Brothers were precisely the sort of firm to do this, even as a contractor, as they had ideas beyond flogging a few cars.
The legal situation still exists today, as far as I know. If you sell a complete running car with certain items removed to be fitted by the buyer, or his agent, you are not responsible for the ongoing condition of that car. I knew two traders who did this after attempts of being sued over issues they claimed was not their fault. There was a period when traders were targeted for stings to get easy money on ill considered new legislation by the criminal element. Clearly they were not tending to sell to the general public, thou they would, and they offered some very good bargains. This was the same bit of legislation but without the tax implication.
So assembling these kits of bits was not the gravy train it looked like, as clever contracting meant the original manufacturer off loaded much of his liability and risk, while still controlling the marketing and gaining a favorable market price reduction. A minor sort of franchising. 
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 11, 2014, 11:29:10 AM
The suspension on a Tourette is coil over shock from a BSA A10 and alike as seen on this photo. It was only the brake drums and hubs that were Schmitt. I understand where your coming from though.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 11, 2014, 12:59:09 PM
So still better than Tri Tech  ;D.

Looks like its nearly there.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 11, 2014, 01:20:56 PM
Anything is better than Tri tech!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 11, 2014, 01:51:44 PM
Hmmm didn't realise Tourette had schmitt wheels/brakes just like Bruetsch , how strange  ;) I have also wondered which screen is used on my Bruetsch - before I trip over and break it !
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: steven mandell on February 11, 2014, 03:31:28 PM
Does the Tourette body provide some lateral stability to the tops of the front shock mounts, or is there a missing chassis piece that provides for useful chassis triangulation?
Which engine is that showing?
Is that insulative pipe wrap on the chassis tubes, and if so ..why? 
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Trident on February 11, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
That's a Villiers 9E Steven - the same as in your Scootacar and Frisky Family Three. ;)
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 11, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
Hi Steve. The tops of those suspension brackets bolt to the top of the wheel arches which I guess is what you suspected. The photo is of Edwin Hammonds Tourette chassis. As the Hammonds are a family of heating engineers I suspect it IS pipe insulation. Most fibreglass shells do have some kind of rubber/foam sandwiched between it and the chassis, it stops some of the creaking!
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 11, 2014, 05:08:08 PM
Hmmm didn't realise Tourette had schmitt wheels/brakes just like Bruetsch , how strange  ;) I have also wondered which screen is used on my Bruetsch - before I trip over and break it !

You must have a very short memory then! Why am I thinking goldfish?
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 11, 2014, 05:29:40 PM
Oh have we been here before ? Sorry but the list of similarities is so long .... Ah here at the bottom of page 5  :D
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 11, 2014, 08:10:18 PM
Ah page five. Often one of my favourites. So much more sophisticated than page two. What was a goldfish again?

Tourette, sounding better than Frisky on suspension. Well the early ones anyway. Is it better than the Scootacar. If you like dampers, yes. Its looking good for the Villiers to perform to its maxiumum.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 11, 2014, 09:04:19 PM
Talking of suspension, I was talking to Paul Merkelt [grandson of the designer] and he told me that the prototypes used two BSA coil overs on each side and like that it was quite stable, however to save costs Progress supreme ditched the idea in favour of one each side to cut costs. At that point it handled far worse. I may have mentioned this story before but if you have the memory of a guppy it doesn't matter!  ;)
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 11, 2014, 09:27:01 PM
 :D.     Goldfish/guppy brutsch / tourette
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 12, 2014, 09:30:01 AM
Hmm, shades of Tri Tech. Here is a suspension that is known to work. No, its OK, we will fit one we know doesn't, and save several shekels. Oh bother, no one is buying, as the thing is crap to drive. A shekel saved is not one made.

We go back to cars that were sorted out and that were capable of performance and handling, plenty tried it on. maximizing the minimal power of their engines. If you cannot do that, do not bother to compete, but plenty tried it on and failed. Then again never underestimate the stupidity of the public. Current fad - take one fully sorted car, alter its suspension and power characteristics and wonder why it is total crap to drive. The manufacturers learn quick and offer factory ruined options for a nice profit rather than watch the tune up merchants get it. Well done Top Gear. Perhaps the Tourette is a tuned up Breutsch - stand back and lurk amongst the ramparts of plastic castle.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 12, 2014, 09:51:01 AM
I can never understand why Egon is revered so much. A man who failed to build a single successful microcar. Some of his styling was nice but that's about it. Without bolting a proper chassis under them they were all but useless.  I have far more respect for Laurie Bond who with the art of sheet aluminium origami built quit stout little chassisless  cars.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 12, 2014, 11:23:42 AM
Hmmm remind me bob just how many cars did Mr. Merkelt design ? Herr Bruetsch is only respected for the curvy designs not the roadworthiness . And my Bruetsch has the sturdiest chassis of probably all microcars - or had you forgotten  :)
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Chris Thomas on February 12, 2014, 11:30:14 AM
Dear Richard

There is nothing like learning from your mistakes.

Chris Thomas
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Bob Purton on February 12, 2014, 01:12:07 PM
Hmmm remind me bob just how many cars did Mr. Merkelt design ? Herr Bruetsch is only respected for the curvy designs not the roadworthiness . And my Bruetsch has the sturdiest chassis of probably all microcars - or had you forgotten  :)

I have never seen your car, only a picture of the body shell Richard.
So why was its body bent like a banana? Surely a sturdy chassis would have kept it straight with bracing in all the right places?
You seem to have developed this idea that there is some kind of contest between a Tourette and various of Egons failures, if it was a contest as to who designed the most flops there is a clear winner! Maybe that's the appeal. They were all a huge flop financially including the Tourette, I'm just saying, as an engineer Egon was pants, as an artist he was great, I love just about everything that flowed from his pen! Laurie was perhaps the other way around. In fact its noteworthy that when Laurie did go the Egon route with the chassis less Berkeley it was not good, twisting bodyshells causing doors to fly open when cornering etc.
It would be great to have a drive of these cars so as to formulate a true opinion rather than speculation. When can I have a drive of your Bruetsch Richard? Is it nearly finished? ;)
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Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 12, 2014, 02:11:08 PM
Well obviously Chris ,one learns . Look at the fend flitzer, the iso isetta Bond shopping car - it often takes someone else to develop the idea practically . Bob I think my car just sufferred from having a ton of carpet tiles stored on it for 20 years ! The floor and internal chassis were not the problem really. Progress you ask ? As I now spend half my life away from home it's just going nowhere as you well know.   ;)currently in snowy Edinburgh having left dismal Glasgow behind . Thinking of those involved in flooding much further south . I do hope we don't find out if Mopettas will float
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: Big Al on February 12, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
Don't envy the being away from home, now. Must be a lot of down time when you might be doing something useful, or just being in a family. Means your harder to tempt out to be a pratt too.

Egon was what is now called a stylist. He needed an engineer to make the concept work. Several adopted designs did so relatively well. Bond, I think, was just to far out on a limb. He was fixated on light weight and the reality is that the best of his work was tweaked by someone else. No different to Issigonis, mind you, who I think was over rated. Bond deserved a better life, I think. He certainly deserves more recognition than he gets but he made the mistake of being English where engineers and the like can be ridiculed and marginalized with impunity.

All the above proves it is easier to get it wrong than right. I celebrate the fact they had the chance to try, these days it is that much harder and we live on scraps of interest from the vehicles available.
Title: Re: Tourette windscreen mystery continues!
Post by: richard on February 12, 2014, 05:17:35 PM
Well said on all counts sir !