RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on July 10, 2014, 01:16:35 PM
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Now here is a car that I don't know much about other than what Chris Reece says in his book. The Panther of Italy. Fibreglass body, 520cc twin diesel engine and front wheel drive. A very odd combination of spec for an early 1950's car.
Any more info anyone?
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Some More info
http://classiccarcatalogue.com/PANTHER%201954.html
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That's interesting as it conflicts with Chris's description saying its alloy bodied. Also a two stroke diesel! More research needed obviously. Where is our editor?
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This site credits Chris's book at least.
http://www.wheelsofitaly.com/wiki/index.php?title=Panther (http://www.wheelsofitaly.com/wiki/index.php?title=Panther)
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Wow, made by the legendary light motorcycle makers! That's if it ever happened. I wonder?
Do you feel an article coming on Chris?
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Dear Bob
No you can not tempt me with this one either. Keep going.
Chris Thomas
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How about something on Hanns Trippel?
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Dear Bob
No you can not tempt me with this one either. Keep going.
Chris Thomas
I understand Chris. Too hard for you. ;) ;)
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hows this ? deutsche kleinwagen has much about this one - but all in german :)
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Then you must do the article Richard!
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i might just do that Bob ;) - and i know just what Chris will say about that ! - concentrate on trying to make a decent Gordon page first !
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Yeh but come on! How much is actually worth saying about a Gordon? :D
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Found this snippet on line.
The company from Milan began in 1954 with the production of automobiles. The brand name was Panther. 1957 ended production. [1]
Cars [ Edit ]
The first model was the 400 D. This was a two-seater small car with front wheel drive . Unusual were the body of plastic from the Carrozzeria Colli and the motor used. It was a fan-cooled two-cylinder - diesel engine of Moto Rumi with 520 cc engine capacity , the 12 hp made. The design speed was specified at 80 km / hr. [2] This model was produced in small numbers until early 1957. [1]
In 1957 there was the Model 400 B, presented at the Geneva Motor Show of 1957. [1] This caused a gasoline engine (two-cylinder four-stroke engine ) with 480 cc displacement and 18 hp for the drive. The body, now of Zagato designed, had been altered somewhat and offered four people.
Licenses [ Edit ]
Salmson , the Industria Sanmarinese Costruzioni Automezzi (ISCA) from San Marino and two companies from Argentina and Belgium were planning licenses to take over, but nothing
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How about something on Hanns Trippel?
He had one more mitt, than Messerschmitt?
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What's wrong with a two stroke diesel? Much better if its supercharged. See one of my fav engines, the Commer Knocker.
Was there not Panther stationary and generator engines? No idea on details but seem to recall tripping over such things. Interesting looking car, rather modern for 1954.
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We are in danger of digressing bob , but as over three times as many Gordon's were sold as Inters it appears that the public were more in favour of the Gordon ;)
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I don't mind a little digression. Pardon my cheekiness. So how many Gordons survive?
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What's wrong with a two stroke diesel? Much better if its supercharged. See one of my fav engines, the Commer Knocker.
Was there not Panther stationary and generator engines? No idea on details but seem to recall tripping over such things. Interesting looking car, rather modern for 1954.
Panther stationary engines ring a bell with me too but as the snippet says, they used Rumi motors in the car which indicates to me that they didn't make there own engines, although it doesn't say that the later petrol engines were Rumi.
I am immediately interested as I just adore Rumi bikes.
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Strangely the car itself does look quite rumi , we'll more so than some micros . Then again some were inter-mediate
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How many surviving Inters are there bob ? Next RUM mag gives an interesting suggestion as to why only 6 Gordon's survive. Talking elsewhere of design faults as we were.
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Richard, Jean Do would be in a better position to answer that as he keeps a register but I think its in its high twenties. Just over 300 were made.
When I asked how many Gordons survive, it was a genuine question.
I have always thought it a little puzzling that we have news letters in RCN for vehicles that have sometimes less than a handful of survivors and why those particular marques. It doesn't make any sense. If there are only six Gordons and thirty Inters surely there should be an Inter news letter? Or is the criteria that there has to be one in the Hammond collection?
Maybe the criteria is just having someone willing to write one and to fill the pages. Not saying that I don't enjoy reading some of them.
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I have a model 70 and there may only be 30 left. Would you like an article Bob? ;D
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NO !!!! FGS Barry ;) save it for Stuarts news letter :)
Bob RUM is for UNUSUAL microcars , by it's nature you cant really have an Isetta page and anyway they and the like are covered by owners clubs and mags . RUM was not founded initially for "common" microcars , unfortunately there are only 6 surviving Gordons ( two of which are known about broadly ,but not yet in the fold )
We have Gordon Fitzgeralds not seen in 25 years , mine talked about but the less said the better, Jeans - still uncompleted , the ex Gordon Gunter one that Nick Taylor bought a year ago - seen at last NMCR - THERE WE HAVE IT 4 - UNUSUAL . if there was anything to be said on the other unusual cars i suppose it would be in the form of one off articles . it certainly was not my idea - or wish - to do a series of Gordon pages but i was hijacked ;)
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Dear Bob
Richard is doing a cracking job of recording the history of the Gordon and telling us all about it. Perhaps one day you would like to do the same for the Inter.
The list of contributers is partially related to cars that are of interest to our readers. But also finding amature and professional writers who would like to put pen to paper to share their knowledge or research. With all the research you have done on the Panther, it should not go to waste. With a little bit more research and a picture of the Rumi engine, and bang Bob Purton can join the ranks of the Rumcar contributers. Unlike some motoring magazines I will not drastically change your words; perhaps the odd spelling, and punctuation, and redundant word.
I know that putting fingers to keyboards is not everybody's idea of fun, but there is some satisfaction in seeing the end result in print.
Think about it one and all
Chris Thomas
Rumcar News
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Dear Richard and Chris. When I mentioned the news letters of cars with only a hand full of survivors I meant just that, the news letters for the Frisky, Nobel, Goggomobil etc seem more appropriate as there are considerably more of them. I would have thought that cars like the AC Petite, Gordon etc would be catered for just as well with an occasional article. Some times when I read them the writer clearly has no news or fresh information to disseminate and waffles on about what a nice saturnalia he had or the price of fish.... That's got to be understandable after all! If there is no news there is no news.
Richard is doing a cracking job as you said but the time may come when there is no more to say and may want to revert to an occasional article. In the mean time though I think he has a backlog of stuff to tell us.
Re me doing the same for the story of the Inter, I have already done it TWICE! The first. a time long before you were on the scene Chris. I wouldn't want to bore the socks off everyone by going over it all again, as I own the only one in the uk I would be talking to myself wouldn't I?
We all have our preferences, some like to restore, some like to drive, others like to research and write. Most cant find time to do more than one.
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Dear Bob
Getting back to the topic and your fascination with the Panther.
The engine has always struck me as unusual being a twin cylinder diesel but the quote you posted said it was a Moto Rumi engine.
Looking at Moto Rumi all their scooters and bikes had 125 twin 2 strokes, and no mention of any other engines, either diesel or 4 stroke. I wonder if that is an error and it should have been a Rotax engine or another make entirely.
I think more research is needed before the article can be written.
Good luck Bob.
Chris Thomas
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Deutsche Kleinwagen i think has it as a diesel 2 stroke - mein deutsch ist kaput :)
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Is a diesel two stroke more or less the same as a petrol one? Just higher compression and no spark? Why are they not common?
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Dear Barry
For some reason motor cycle engines have always been about getting the most power out of the smallest, simplest and lightest engine. Diesels by their very nature were heavy and slow and low powered for their weight. Many microcars used available motor cycle engines so they did not embrace Diesel engines. It was probably the French car manufacturer Duport who promoted the use of small industrial diesel units in quadricycles that has resulted in the range of small diesel cars we have today.
In the 1950's and early 60's the two stroke engines was seen as having a lot more development potential than the 4 stroke and lots of experimental engines were tried, including two stroke Diesels, but as we have seen very few ever saw the light of day.
There were some Diesel motorcycles built, but they are a rarity.
Chris Thomas
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I don't know if all diesel 2 strokes are the same but the ones I have seen demonstrated all have an exhaust valve so not the same as a petrol 2 stroke.
The reason why motorcycle engines are developed to get the maximum performance and power out of the smallest capacity is I think as a result of the taxation rules of the various countries in which they were developed. Italy being a prime example. It was very expensive to owe anything bigger than a 125. No country did more to develop the 50cc motor in my view.
Royal Enfield India do a diesel version of the Bullet. Its not popular!
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Diesels require high compression ratios to work efficiently. Thus they were simpler to produce in heavier and larger engines that could have the mass to make up for a lack of design and technology. It became apparent that supercharging the engine was an easy method of increasing compression. On many of these engines two pistons are used. It increases the compression via low grade technology, and offers a valve system at the same time. The Commer Knocker used two pistons and a supercharger. The pistons were horizontally opposed to each other in a bank of three cylinders, so six pistons. The supercharged mix was thus further compressed by the two pistons coming to the middle of the cylinder where the combustion occurred. By doing this there were few high stressed parts and a simple engine which was reliable and more powerful for its size than the opposition.
There were drawbacks. It was a noisy engine and always sounded is if it was reving hard as it fired every stroke. Once heard at full chat, never forgotten, as they roar in a way no other diesel does. The second issue was that they had a habit of coking up. Not in itself an issue to the truck as they decoked themselves. But for anyone else an alarming blaze of fire and glowing soot could emanate from the exhaust without much warning.
Despite its good performance and reliability the unit was dropped in favour of 'normal' technology. That is conservative technology, aided by the increase understanding of materials, design and combustion. Today small diesels can outperform their petrol equivalents as Diesel is a more calorifically dense fuel. Yet there were very successful early deisel engines that were small. The Lohman clip on cyclemotor I think. Or was Mosquitoe.
Returning to the Panther. It is therefore possible that this car had one of a number of differing '50's versions of the shared twin piston in one cylinder engine. The other option is a multiple version of the engine used in the Iso Romi. This rather odd unit probably could operate as a diesel two stroke and a twin would be about the right size. I do not know who was actually responsible for the invention and manufacturer of that unit, but it was in its hay day at the time.
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I just keep seeing the title and thinking of a mircocar with a Panther Sloper motor - which would make even a 400cc diesel sound like a sewing machine and feel like velvet.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Panther_100_600_cc_1936.jpg/250px-Panther_100_600_cc_1936.jpg)
This was the favoured bike to haul a large sidecar around in the 1950s/60s, so low speed torque was its forté and while it could rev to the heady heights of 5000 rpm, it was normally heard firing once for each lampost it went past. Just how many minutes the average microcar body would survive under the onslaught of this motor before self-destructing, I hate to think.
Oops - picture credit: Yesterdays Antique Motorcycles
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Yeh, love them. they breath rather than rev!
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no relation to this fearsome U.S. Clinton Panther then i guess ;) - as fitted to Trojan Trobikes and Trokarts 1962 , N.O.S.
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Dear Bob
I have been doing a little info digging and I think the engine was a Lambardini engine. Whilst we associate them with the 502 petrol engine, they were making small Diesel engines at the time, the right size and twin cylinder.
Chris Thomas