RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: AndyL on August 25, 2014, 05:12:49 PM

Title: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 25, 2014, 05:12:49 PM
I know it might sound a bit mad, but I wondered if anyone had supercharged or fitted a turbo to a micro or bubble? There are  units available used on kei cars and some scooters (e.g. Peugeot Jetforce 125) for small displacement engines.

I've seen an Isetta in the States fitted with a positive displacement supercharger which looked like a suck through set-up, but never seen any other details.

Andy
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 25, 2014, 05:31:38 PM
Now your making ME feel uncomfortable Andy! Personally I hate that kind of thing because once you upgrade the performance then you are obliged to upgrade the brakes and suspension so by now the original car has been changed significantly and although some may do this in a manner that it can be changed back easily other lunatics start cutting the cars about. Rum cars is about the preservation of microcars.
You are right about the Americans, they will do anything to vintage vehicles but that's the American tradition of custom car building. They call it customizing, I call it whole sale destruction.
My argument has always been , if a car doesn't do what you want it to do, ie go fast enough, buy a different car.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: marcus on August 25, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
Not me!

The problem is that it is relatively easy to fit accessories or different engines to make bubbles and micros go faster. 

However, the clever bit is ensuring that their steering, brakes, suspension, chassis/sub-frame, centre-of-balance, tyre size/behaviour and other factors are all equal to the extra power and speed.

In its most basic sense: if you get your "ripped" bubble/micro into trouble FASTER, can you also get it OUT of trouble or Handle the trouble when it hits?!

Furthermore, if your micro/bubble is at all collectable or valuable, how will that value be affected by altering it from its original specifications?

It is a fact that some bubble/micro cars are/were not particularly well designed even for their modest performance. Others were expertly engineered by experienced companies who managed to  design adequate or even very good braking, steering etc for the engine's performance. Before increasing power and speed I would ask myself "Do I know more about vehicle engineering than....(e.g.) Messerscmitt, Heinkel, Goggomobil, BMW?" If the answer was not EMPHATICALLY YES, then I personally would leave well enough alone!

Another point is that many bubbles and micros were designed to be affordable, and high performance was sacrificed to achieve this. They are what they are for a reason and I think it is fine to like them for what they are and NOT start tinkering. if I want a car with high performance I would choose one designed and built for the purpose, to which end I once had an MG sports car. I loved it just as I loved my Trojan and I never felt any desire to change either of them into something they were never supposed to be.

Just my opinion, it's right for me but others might disagree, it's a free world!
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Chris Thomas on August 25, 2014, 05:47:16 PM
Dear All

Many of the Kei cars do have turbo charged 660 cc engines, and do they go. The Carver one and the Copen both have the turbo charged Diahatsu 660 cc engine, so perhaps you should think of owning one of these, where the job has been done for you.

Chris Thomas
Rumcar News
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: marcus on August 25, 2014, 05:55:15 PM
That would be sensible!

Another point I forgot is cooling and heating: if you increase power and performance you might find it hard to find space for bigger rads or increased air-flow. Then you might have to add cooling for your brakes. Then you are going faster so you get more draughts, windows start popping out, you might have to add a bigger heater, and soon enough all the extra gear you are adding cuts down cabin space, adds weight and complication...and you can find yourself on a never-ending spiral of increasing problems and side effects. The Japanes companies are experts in small Kei cars and have been building them for half a century. I think I would trust their expertise a little better than the average hobbyist!
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 25, 2014, 06:41:41 PM
you're on the wrong site mate . most of the micro's we have the brakes can only just cope with the 3-12hp already provided
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker) on August 25, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Several people have tried replacement engines, particulalry with Reliants and Bond Bugs, but I've never heard of anyone fitting a supercharger or a turbo. I think it would be an interesting exercise if you were building something from scratch with replica bodywork, but like most have said already most microcars are either too rare or minimally engineered to stand even a minor engine boost.

Outside the field of microcars, heres a link to a video of a supercharged Honda 50 racer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCURXinXoEg#t=164 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCURXinXoEg#t=164)
More info
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/the%20bikes.html (http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/the%20bikes.html)

And a company that makes superchargers for small capacity engines.
http://s-charger.com/our-products/ (http://s-charger.com/our-products/)

I was only reading the other day about Honda's experiments with a 250cc turbo when they were trying to re-enter 500cc GP racing in the 1980s (then dominated by 2-strokes) with a 4-stroke. As well as their well-known failure the NR500 They also built a 250cc watercooled parallel twin with twin turbos, eight valves per cylinder and oval pistons which gave 150bhp at 20,000 rpm. They felt that with a bit more work 170bhp was possible, but the FIM wouldn't allow them to use it.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Peel replica, Steve Fisk on August 25, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
Anything is possible with determination, money and blah blah blah , there's been cars converted for drag racing with bike engines and what ever , I just can't see the point in taking a 50 year old car trying to get a small turbo on it trying to get it to rev right the finding the gear ratio is completely wrong and watching it go bang , just get a replica shell of a car you like and build a turbo bike engined chassis and plonk it on top
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 25, 2014, 07:27:38 PM
like you've done steve  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: marcus on August 25, 2014, 07:35:09 PM
i have an American friend who bought an MGB. He wanted to improve its performance and acceleration by fitting various non-standard improvements, instead of having it for what it was - a fun open top car. The mods he made required other things to be altered, and within a couple of years he had improved it to such an extent that it did not work at all and failed to work so completely that it was stored for 25 years until it required a major restoration and return to original components and specifications, at which pint it finally ran again.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 25, 2014, 07:59:04 PM
Okay. Thought I'd be out on my own with this one. Better not go into fuel injection and mapped ignition.... :-X
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Peel replica, Steve Fisk on August 25, 2014, 08:03:53 PM
Your right there Richard !
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 25, 2014, 08:24:42 PM
Most of these things have been done. The main interest might be impressed at some clever engineering but it does not sit well. Most of these modified cars tend to disappear to other arenas of interest or end up mouldering in a shed. The Berkeley particularly SUFFERING Badly for home improvements rendering the remains pretty much beyond restorability to original, and often of very low value.

For me true microcars are about minimalist motoring. The era of my favoured cars offered no cheaP FORM OF THESE MODIFICATIONS. sO THEY ARE OUT OF PLACE. tHE WORK TO REALLY PRODUCE A ROUNDED CAR FROM THESE BASE UNITS IS FAR GREATER THAN BUYING SOMETHING LAter or building a replica from scratch. So the whole thing seems completely pointless to me and few modified cars have ever really struck me as a viable and sensible modification.

I fear, though, that this is becoming a minority view.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 25, 2014, 10:01:20 PM
I tend to agree with you Al. Even electronic ignitions fitted to Schmitts and Isetta appear to offer little benefit and when you break down at the side of the road there is nothing to fiddle with to get it going again. You cant really argue that John Bannel hasnt done some great things with his modifications but again they are major reworks, not simple bolt on gadgets. Plus he is a very qualified man, not a tinkerer.
 I'm all for leaving them be.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 26, 2014, 12:03:05 AM
John's Frankenschmitt is impressive. But it really shows what the next Messerschmitt should have been instead of trying to create the Tiger. Having invested in future sales there would have been a budget to create the Tiger, possibly with a few mods making it even better.  So it offers a big question mark. The later Goggo and BMW projects were unlikely to be put forward by the factory, indeed the Martini Coupe was supercharged rather than fuel injected. Yet the 700 drifts away from Micro to light cars, not least as John is a big man and age has caught up with his joints making the Beemer an easier car to access and drive. All are very well presented and worked out. Not the average lob an engine in, stir the wiring and fit some bigger tyres.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 26, 2014, 09:29:23 AM
If you're going to modify a car in any way, then good sense dictates you should be fully aware of what you are doing, and fully understand the items you are bolting on.

Electronic ignition was given as an example. Without a computer mapped advance curve, electronic ignition offers the following advantages-

Zero maintenance- no contacts to clean and gap.
Some systems will offer a programmable dwell time, this offers some advantage at higher engine speeds.

So the main advantage is to remove the maintenance, which will probably save you twenty minutes annually. Hardly worth the time and expenditure of fitting.

If the unit was coupled to a mapped advance curve, then improvements both in economy and power would be noticed, however that requires a rolling road session and several other sensors, and if you're going to do that you may as well throw fuel injection into the mix too.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 26, 2014, 10:04:09 AM
Hi Andy. I did feel the benefit of a modern ignition system  with my 1957 Moto Morini Tresette, I fitted the MZB powerdynamo and electronic advance curve, the result being that it started easier but performance was about the same.
This wasn't out of choice mind, the original alternator melted and I couldn't find a replacement so this was a quick but not cheap fix.
My view of them on microcars like the Schmitt is based on experiences I was hearing when I was restoring my Schmitt some years back. At the time people who had fitted it were saying it was great while they worked but then would suddenly fail miles away from home and there was nothing anyone could do to fix it at the roadside where as you can change points and condenser in a few minutes. I'm guessing the products available now are much improved.
I cant see the harm in light mods to improve reliability if it is non destructive and doesn't change the appearance of the vehicle. After all we are trying to encourage people to drive the cars as much as possible. 
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 26, 2014, 10:12:28 AM
My approach must suit you then Bob the appearance of my cars , although not as they left factory, has remained pretty much unchanged whilst in my ownership  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 26, 2014, 11:08:54 AM
Electronic components are very much more rugged than in days past. For a breakerless system, especially in a micro car where space is tight, hall effect sensor will usually be used in conjunction with a permanent magnet sweeping past. This will sometimes feed into microcontroller for electronic advance, or it can directly switch a transistor to feed the coil if using mechnical advance. The transistors used are generally a special type called an IGBT, which for those unfamiliar stands for Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor. These are designed to present a straightforward load for a low voltage feed (like a Mosfet) from the hall sensor or microcontroller and switch higher voltages safely (like a bipolar transistor) without getting cooked- ideal for an inductive load.

Years ago these components were much lower in spec or weren't automotive graded (automotive grade electrical components have an extended temperature range), so they expired easily. Nowadays components rarely fail unless you have a serious fault like a dead short.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 26, 2014, 11:59:46 AM
Little bit of additional reading on ignition coil switching, for those interested- http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/application_note/CD00003911.pdf
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 26, 2014, 04:23:06 PM
I had a search for the Frankenschmitt. I found some pictures after navigating away from some awful conversion where someone in the States had grafted the front of of DKW onto a KR200 back in the 60's.

It looks like John put a different engine in, not sure what engine it is, but having a guess it's a modified unit from a Goggomobil?
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 26, 2014, 07:20:47 PM
No, I think its an 250cc MZ engine he uses.
He also upgraded the brakes to hydraulics using Isetta drums and Goggo back plates.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 26, 2014, 09:11:46 PM
MZ 250 Trophy engine with a Goggo dynostarter mounted instead of a mag. So 5 speed, big gears and more power. Wide rear wheel with sway bar to control the rear deflection from the suspension. Most of the fittings made specially. It sounds much like a Schmitt still.
Hydraulic braking on reworked but original parts. Uprated interior and instruments. There is nothing here that was not available at the end of Schmitt production.

The American Frankenschmitt appeared later on the net, co opting the name. It is bonkers but not remotely as impressive as John's car.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 27, 2014, 08:12:33 PM
Okay, very interesting. In the pictures I could only see a single spark plug, so wondered if there was something else used. Sounds like a good combination of bits.

My Dad owned a KR200 back in the early '60's. He bought it to replace his BSA Bantam, because in his own words he got sick and tired of coming off the thing in the snow and ice. As he could drive the Messerschmitt on  bike license, it was a good choice, and he obtained his car license in it- apparently the examiner was glad to get out of it, so clearly not an enthusiast!  The car was an early 1955 model, originally Black with a red interior. He had bash in it, and after straightening it out he resprayed it gold then blue.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/KR200_zpsb5a29878.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/KR200_zpsb5a29878.jpg.html)

The picture is a frame grab from some 8mm cine film shot in France, where he  toured in the car with a friend and work colleague Peter Green. They took camping equipment and most of their food (in tins!) for a fortnight. Lacking space in the little car, my Dad custom built two side panniers from wood, which you can spot in the shot. They were attached to metal bars which were bolted through the floorpan.

Apparently they got regular inspections from the French plod, who suspected they were up to no good!

Peter Green later went on to purchase his own bubble, a Heinkel 175 and the following year they went further by driving it down to Gibraltar, once again complete with tent and food! This proved a bit of a stretch, my Dad said it seemed like they were forever driving. The Heinkel was turned over into a ditch whilst in Spain, resulting in battery acid burning holes in their tent, a side window popped out which had to be refitted and a bent track rod which wore one of the tyres out, but luckily no harm to the occupants. My Dad is pictured here with the car.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/heinkel_.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/heinkel_.jpg.html)

Peter Green got back into bubbles back in the 80's and owned a Trojan (611 T00), but sold it in the early 90's and purchased an MG Magnette.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 27, 2014, 10:56:00 PM
Peter Green, a legend among Trienkelnauts.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 27, 2014, 10:59:12 PM
I love the panniers! Nice period pictures. I'm a bit puzzled over what you said about your dad passing his car test in a Schmitt, I didn't think that was possible?  I passed my test in an Isetta and it only gave me a license to drive three wheelers. Mind you that was in 1972.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 28, 2014, 07:36:05 AM
Many years ago when politicians were black and white you could pass your car driving test in a tricycle made for two. In the same way as you could drive it on a bike license with minor mods. Another reason they were popular as it was a logical stepping stone as you earned the money to buy a car after starting out with a bike. Of course you could go with a sidecar combo, but that never could be converted in a test to a car license. Then colour was invented, oh dear!

However I passed my test in 1977 and that gave me the right to drive all the classes on my license today. I have old fogey's rights to drive a locomotive under 12 tons amongst other things, traction engine, Bus with under 12 people in it (if you applied to retain it in time), if I remember right. A few years later Colour was better defined in a revamp of the system, which was changed again and a lot of the odder stuff got removed to separate testing, like the bus bit. The handiest bit I have is the 71/2 tonner and truck and trailer licenses as many younger folk can find themselves driving without a license by overloading their truck or combo including campingvans and trailer. There are some good things about being old.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 28, 2014, 08:19:03 AM
Still doesn't make sense.
I know I did it all wrong. Took my test in the Isetta which gave me full license to drive three wheelers and mopeds only. If I had done a test on my motorcycle it would have entitled me to full motorbike and three wheeler cars so I ended up having to take another test for motorcycles and then later ordinary cars. Bonkers!
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Rob Dobie on August 28, 2014, 09:53:29 AM
When I took my first bike driving licence test and passed, (1961), on a 50cc automatic  moped, I could then ride/drive mopeds, motorcycles, single or with a sidecar, any size engine! and bubblecars/threewheelers with the reverse gear blanked off at the gear lever.
Later if you reinstated the reverse gear you could take your full car test in the bubblecar and if passed you could legally drive most vehicles except invalid carriages, road rollers, tracked vehicles, large lorries, articulated or not and public service vehicles. But in those days there wasn't the amount of traffic about.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 28, 2014, 10:05:16 AM
ah, that's interesting, it was the unbocking of reverse gear that allowed you to take the car test in a three wheeler. I didn't know that.   In that case the laws must have either changed by 1972 or I was cheated somehow. Thanks for that Rob.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 28, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
As others said, the law was a bit easier going then. A bit like motorbikes, years ago a rider could pass their motorcycle test on a Honda 50, then legally go and climb on 900. No longer the case.

Not only did my Dad pass his test in RYN 726, but Peter learnt to drive in it too and also passed his test in it. Couple of frame grabs of a young Peter Green entering the car. This was in 1963.

They both worked as Postmen at Highgate SO

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/PGreen_zps7f9a0409.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/PGreen_zps7f9a0409.jpg.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/PGreen2_zpsb3f0acbd.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/PGreen2_zpsb3f0acbd.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 28, 2014, 11:01:37 AM
Part of the car test was reversing so a vehicle without reverse would not be any use to take the test. I do not know when the rules changed, but over the years they have got more and more tied up in respect of the anachronistic vehicles that still exist in small numbers, but do not really fit in any category.
Interestingly an IC was not a car, so a separate system. Now DVLA say they are PLG, you can drive them! Logic, always sacrificial to bureaucratic expediency. 
PSV was an oddity. Up to 12 people, but not paying passengers. That was changed after several bad accidents to a full PSV license. It was then you needed to apply for old fogeys rights, or you lost them. However it remains the case I cannot drive a bus for reward.

I never bothered with a bike license as I am bloody useless on a bike. It is why I got into Trikes when my mates went biking. Several into racing, I lost touch with most, not surprisingly. I passed my test in a Datsun Cherry.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Rob Dobie on August 28, 2014, 03:52:06 PM
They both worked as Postmen at Highgate SO
Ah, the joys of being a postie in the 1960s to 1990s!

Did they use their own cars to deliver the letters as I did many times in the Polegate area? naughty boy! The bosses never knew or turned a blind eye. In 1976 I even used my Peel P50 for a laugh. Customers faces were a delight to see as I crawled out of it with the mail bag throttling me.  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 28, 2014, 04:26:33 PM
Yes it was very common to use your own car. The governors knew of course,  but it didn't really hurt the business, they got a lower cost vehicle fleet and the postmen got away a bit earlier- mutual benefit.

My Dad owned a VW bus for many years, and used to ferry other postmen around too.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 28, 2014, 07:16:50 PM
ah indeed 611 TOO the very first bubble of any kind that i think i ever , knowingly , saw - Peters car at HTOEC AGM Crick, Northampton '86 or '87 nice car but why on earth did he paint that colour i wonder ?  :-\
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 28, 2014, 07:30:06 PM
Peter GREEN
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 28, 2014, 07:47:46 PM
yes al that was a rhetorical question  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 28, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
I think his first car was green also.

611 T00 was the only Heinkel Trojan I have ever had a ride in, which took place at the 1990 NMCR at Weston Park.

I remembered thinking that although the Heinkel a more elegant design than the Isetta, I felt the latter was a nicer car to ride in being softer sprung and with a less harsh engine note. I think that may be due to the way the engine is mounted on Isetta and also the separate chassis design probably damps noise a bit better than the Heinkel's unitary construction.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 28, 2014, 08:11:17 PM
go and wash your mouth out ! :)
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 28, 2014, 10:27:34 PM
Totally agree with Andy. The reason I never took to Heinkels was the harsh unrefined engine sound and all the vibration through the floor. Give me an Isetta any day.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Grant Kearney on August 28, 2014, 10:34:35 PM
Peter Green wrote up his exploits travelling through Europe in his first Heinkel a few years ago in book titled, 'Eric went too', a reference a teddy bear that accompanied him on the journey.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 29, 2014, 07:01:01 AM
I remember many references too the book, I never saw a copy . Pre internet days but even now no reference on it now
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 29, 2014, 07:49:27 AM
Totally agree with Andy. The reason I never took to Heinkels was the harsh unrefined engine sound and all the vibration through the floor. Give me an Isetta any day.

So the Heinkel is for Men and the Isetta for Wooses? No idea how you spell that bit of East England slang.
'Tiz true. I am not sure the noise level is that different in decibels, but to an untrained ear it can sound like the Heinkel engine is more than keen to sit next to you! The Isetta has a better - quieter - exhaust but at the expense of a bigger system. Most Heinkels now suffer induction noise as they are at least missing the flange seal to the air filter, if not the whole assembly. Once again set up and sorted the car quietens down a fair bit, but it is a more raw experience than a similar prepared Isetta. Its a more minimalist and pure Microcar. It would be interested to have an exit poll on potential buyers back in the day to see if this was one reason the Isetta outsold the Heinkel, about 5 to 1, is it?
You need to get the cars on the road to appreciate the Heinkel's superior performance ability. But then not everyone does, so we remain in the argument and choose our weapons. Just as well as hopefully both marques will get used and show up at meetings. At the moment Isettas seem a bit scarce, but the Club is reported as still to be struggling a bit after the spares debacle and that will have an effect. I really hope that the IOC can sort itself out, even at the expense of reforming in a new entity (As I advised some years back, prior to the debacle, and side stepping the potential damage now done). The HTC managed to reinvent itself after a bit of a disaster, and so in an inversion of the cars, the smoother ride is to own a Heinkel as the support is better - at the moment.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Bob Purton on August 29, 2014, 08:46:37 AM
Well I don't think its so much a case of choosing our weapons and an argument but more personal preference, people value different qualities in a microcar. No idea how you spell the W word, we don't use it in Hornchurch but I would imagine the P G Wodehouse route would be about right.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Big Al on August 29, 2014, 09:47:52 AM
OK, cliche and debate may be substituted ;).

As you well know the crucial thing is to have the cars running well and to be able to use them. Experience than leads each to their preference and some leg pulling.

Bring in mego mods and I am not sure where we stand, as the character of the car is altered. In principle I am against it, but there exceptions as some modified cars are testaments to some very clever engineering and skilled workmanship.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 29, 2014, 11:13:11 AM
I imagine the Heinkel and Trojan scene got a major shot in the arm when Ray and Jenny Dilks got their car and got involved with the spares. They ran the IOC spares service like a well oiled Swiss timepiece. Prior to that a lot of owners described running one as on the edge of extinction. Perhaps an overstatement, but certainly it seemed a lot of owners had to mend and make do with Heinkels compared with say a Messerschmitt or Isetta.

Regarding noise, that's an interesting subject to me. Single cylinder engines are difficult beasts to subdue as they need such large volumes on both intake and exhaust to quieten adequately. I notice quite a few owners of micros often abandon the standard air canisters and fit either a small stub stack style air filter, or worse still no filter at all to improve performance. The former is a good way to dramatically increase the noise of a bubble, where induction noise will certainly become louder than the exhaust and the latter sounds a good way to wear the engine out!
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 29, 2014, 11:18:35 AM
BTW, I have a copy of 'Eric Went too'.

I could scan it and upload it as a pdf. Does this forum feature file hosting capability?
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Rob Dobie on August 29, 2014, 11:46:54 AM
Did Peter Green write a sequel of his adventures with Eric? I seem to remember the title P.G. Tips.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: steven mandell on August 29, 2014, 12:00:16 PM
thei have an American friend who bought an MGB. He wanted to improve its performance and acceleration.
The mods he made required other things to be altered, and within a couple of years he had improved it to such an extent that it did not work at all!
I think we can safely say that those modifications were not improvements.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 29, 2014, 12:16:35 PM
I don't know if a sequel was written. I only ever saw the first 'book'.

I had a look at the attachments options, and observed it permits pdf files. So I will upload the book once I return to work where I have access to a decent scanner.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: Rob Dobie on August 29, 2014, 04:18:48 PM
Did Peter Green write a sequel of his adventures with Eric? I seem to remember the title P.G. Tips.

I don't know if a sequel was written. I only ever saw the first 'book'.

Sorry, I was trying to be funny! Lots of people say that I am trying. What do they mean?  Put the kettle on and have a cup of tea on me, cheers.  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on August 29, 2014, 04:32:09 PM
Fair enough. To be honest it sounded like the sort of thing Peter would write.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: richard on August 29, 2014, 06:43:32 PM
Rob , and Englishman of a certain age , Q Do you know the piano's on my foot ? A you hum it I'll play it  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: steven mandell on September 08, 2014, 09:17:48 AM
Greg Haas, ("Isetta Dude") here in the Los Angeles area, has restored many Isettas to concourse standards.
He also makes and sells his own rubber parts, and a fuel valve for these vehicles that doesn't leak.
I believe that about 6 years ago he showed up with a tiny supercharger grafted to the side of one of his Isettas.
If I am remembering correctly, he might have borrowed some parts from a smog pump to do so.
It looked to be very well made, if not a bit odd hanging off the side of the motor.
I believe that the improvement in power was modest enough not to engender a need for all the other upgrades previously pointed out in this blog.

On the other end of the spectrum: I had a Brazilian TV crew over last week trying to film me in my Autozam AZ-1.
They were filming from a modern full sized rental car.  I got chastised more than once to slow down as they couldn't come close to keeping up with me.
I'll be first to admit that the intercooled turbo lures you in to letting it out.
It is technically the overall all round fastest series production microcar.

Drove it and a few fridges to my local Car Night group's semi weekly events that I am in charge of securing.
This time it  was easy to secure the venue at a local BMW shop.   All I had to do was stop by in the AZ-1 and let the car do the talking.
Title: Re: Anyone on here turbocharged or supercharged a micro or bubble?
Post by: AndyL on September 08, 2014, 12:15:50 PM
VW did a small Roots style smog pump, I have a hunch he may have used one of those. I've seen a  picture of an Isetta with small roots blower sticking out of the side, so that may have been Greg's. That would have run direct off the crank I assume at a 1:1 ratio. I guess the set-up was suck through with no intercooling, so boost would have been limited to avoid detonation.

This site is very good for baby blowers and turbos- http://www.kemotorsport.com/

I obtained an AMR300 from there, which blows 300cc of air per revolution and is about the size of a couple of coke cans.

Mapped ignition and injection isn't essential, but does make a heck of a lot of difference to drive-ability and performance with blown engines. It also make a blow through set-up simpler, which again gives a lot of benefits, not least the ability to intercool, which is really worthwhile with an air cooled engine matched with a roots blower.