RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on October 21, 2014, 06:23:35 PM
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Can anyone offer my some advice please about the best way to start up my 9e.
In the past when I wanted to start up a Villiers motor in a Bond I would open the bonnet and tickle the float chamber. In my current car the carb is not so accessible and it has the butterfly type choke. I am finding that if I pull the choke out it tends to flood very easily.
Any advice please on the best starting technique?
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How about trying disconnecting the choke cable from the butterfly choke, and rigging it up to activate the tickler?
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I know this may sound obvious but have you got the slider and needle in the carb in the right way round. If I remember rightly the chamfer should face the piston. If it is the other way around it will be very difficult to start.
Chris Thomas
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In what way is it flooding? Is it getting the plug wet with over rich charge, or is it a case of the thing filling the case with fuel so once turned it has to contend with dollops of poorly mixed charge? I would suspect the later to be not possible with the butterfly choke. If it is happening then there will be a reason on the carb.
No expert on the Villiers. Put the needle into the weakest position? Choke will have less charge to work with. Once the character of the engine is determined the needle can be tuned in.
If you can reach the inlet use your hand instead of the butterfly to start. If that works, and the butterfly does not, there is an issue.
Get it running on ether. Gets the fuel round the engine, sealing up and beds in the seals, rings etc. Might behave thereafter.
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Well actually Al, you raise something I had not thought of, I have an electric on/off valve on this car which is something I have never used before. I will have to check that this isn't slowly allowing fuel to bleed through and fill up the chamber. I don't think it is but worth checking.
Its flooding in the sense that when I try to start it from cold with choke out it will fire a few times then not at all until I dry off the plug and start again. Once started it will fire up instantly on the key all day.
The needle doesn't have notches but rather a screw that raises or lowers the needle so the choice of positions are infinite. I set it according to the book which is 1.95" if I remember correctly.
I think you are probably correct when you say once its out and in use it will settle down Starting it up all the time in the workshop for a few minutes to impress my friends is doing it no favours.
It may only like the choke out a fraction like Thumper does.
I just asked in case someone could advise from experience with this kind of choke.
Chris, What are we going to do with you? The slide will only go in one way and chamfers always face towards the air filter. Thanks for trying though.
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try not touching the choke but foot hard down on accelerator - wind Siba up - you may be lucky.
the butterfly choke , the screw that holds butterfly make sure its tight (centre pop the thread that pokes out) it can come out - and get sucked in and cost you a re-bore & piston.
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try not touching the choke but foot hard down on accelerator - wind Siba up - you may be lucky.
the butterfly choke , the screw that holds butterfly make sure its tight (centre pop the thread that pokes out) it can come out - and get sucked in and cost you a re-bore & piston.
Thanks Alan. I haven't heard that before about the screw coming loose. Well worth knowing!
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It does sound like a weeping fuel tap, a bit. Sounds like a bit of fine checking will iron it out. Nasty issue with the screw, best known about and neutered before a prob. Though it is amazing how these engines can pass stuff without damage, sods law is ever present.
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I am sure it will fit both ways as I drove my Francis Barnet around for a year like it having to bump start it every time I went out. I eventually sold it to a friend who after an investigation, turned it around and it would start first kick every time
It does go to show that I am not as technical as you guys.
Chris Thomas
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Sorry Chris but no. the cable enters the slide chamber cap, not in the centre but on one side and the cap has a locating tab that drops into the carb body. There is also a slot in the slide so that it cant be put in the wrong way..
I hazard a guess that your Fanny B would have had a different carb model.
Its time to get your hands dirty Chris!
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dont let him free on yours Bob :)
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Don't worry, I wont but he more than makes up for it as excellent magazine editor.
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try not touching the choke but foot hard down on accelerator - wind Siba up - you may be lucky.
the butterfly choke , the screw that holds butterfly make sure its tight (centre pop the thread that pokes out) it can come out - and get sucked in and cost you a re-bore & piston.
Thanks Alan. I haven't heard that before about the screw coming loose. Well worth knowing!
if it happens to a Bond/Villiers its happened to me - the MkD is full of mod's - the throttle slide only goes in one way , notch on top of carb body , screw on side of carb for grove in slide , needle length 1.95 , mixture screw start at 1 and half turns out . (try not to use ammal carb for road use , no cutaway for tick over - you have to use cable adjuster - hence no pet/roil lube on down hill over run )
Alan
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( Amal carb, no cutaway for tick over - hence no pet/roil lube on down hill over run
Steven M, here is that lack of lub point coming up again. Though I had not taken on board the Amal was so ill equipped as this.
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I'm intrigued: one of my carbs has the screw to limit how low the throttle slide goes at tick-over, and another carb, of otherwise the same model, doesn't.
To set tickover, the second one needs careful setting of the throttle cable, which isn't so precise. But, either way, the throttle slide remains just above the bottom, at the same height. How does this affect lubrication? Surely it's the same in both cases, limited to the small amount of oil in the "tickover" rate of fuel flow. No?
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Thats what I thought too.
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Well first your making the assumption that the carb is actually adjusted correctly (it probably is in your case, as your driving it). You would be amazed how many owners of Treinkel never look into their carbs to see if the adjustment of the cable and compensator is correct, and they have full throttle movement. It is rather satisfying to adjust the throttle slide so it actually opens the last third, and watch them be stunned at the sudden additional performance for about two minutes fiddling. Of course then you have to tune old carby in again, but that's another story.
So I bet there are cars that have nigh on closed, or open, carbs for tickover running the wrong mix. Given that is the case advice can be incorrect as is the car overall weak or rich? Can be both, if its well out, at differing openings. The thing is not idiot proof.
I thought the cut out in the front of some slides was to proportionally increase the air flow for small movements near tick over. In other words the volume of air remains low but the majority of the air passes directly over the needle aperture drawing out more fuel then the equivalent none cut out airflow where much of the air does not pass over the needle aperture. Thus in such a position the ratio of fuel is a little richer than when a full throttle, if all other things are stable. The needle is, of course, shaped as a taper. That taper controls the mix when the needle is withdrawn compensating for the lack of control from the front of the slide. So the one takes over from the other, meaning the ratio can be the same, if desired, in fully open positions. In practice it probably is not. Go further and in SU carbs tuning should always refer back to which needle to use in the carb to match the rest of the engines performance. A standard needle wit5h a high lift cam, for instance, is a waste of time. You need a needle to match the changed spec.
Certainly on these strokers, Sachs and Goggo, I am in the habit of giving them a tweak of choke down hill if not under power. Saab, Trabbi and such do not need this as they have freewheel to protect them. On both those smaller cars the choke is little more than a tickler. Tickling and choke are actually performing slightly differing functions. Your hand can mimic a choke, so starting cars as if by magic, but it cannot mimic a tickler.
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You speak for your own Al ;D
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He whom laughs off intelligent insights learned through a career of hard earned experience only makes mockery of himself.
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Apologies for any misunderstanding here . My comment was intended to refer to al's last two lines alone
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Steven, you will have to forgive Richard, I think its one of his attempts at a cheap smutty joke, he is from up north you know, pigeons, whippets and working mans clubs. They cant help themselves! ;D
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Well I am sure Al , " to whom " the comment was addressed was not so easily upset . "To whom " my aren't those colonials quaint :)
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whoops this thread is starting to 4 stroke ;)
Aan
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All meant in fun!
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just a minute , sorry for any deviation , repetition or hesitation - Samantha !
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Its the 'Ooo Matron' British humour, I fear. The benefit of not reading back what is written, or didn't I? As a double negative what's that mean? - All I know is that I do not know all this carby stuff as fact, but believe it to be so, unless someone puts me straight.
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Moving away from the Carry on film script, I had a chance to play with the villiers carb settings this afternoon to try and solve the plug fouling problem I was having at start up.
I found that with the mixture screw turned out another half turn and the needle lowered a couple of millimeters the problem appears to have gone away. Of course I cant really do a final set up until the car is out and in use. If you have seen the width of my sideway you will know that's easier said than done!
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Indeed. Getting it running and then circuit and bumps to home in on the sweet spot. Just about to do this myself with the Schmitt.