RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: super-se7en (Malc Dudley) on December 15, 2014, 12:45:32 PM
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Anyone want 13 ligiers that have been converted to battery operation. eBay 2617006403.
Must be a logistical nightmare. Oh there is an Enfield as well.
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Oh I would love that. A classic shed clearout and obviously other interesting stuff. Think, must not bid, must not bid.
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By heck! There must be a story & a half to that lot! Logistical nightmare? No worse than the Wolverhampton case I'd have thought, & possibly easier due to the smaller size of each car.....
Damn you HSBC, PAY UP!! I'm missing all the fun!
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maybe all the forum regulars could chip in and have one each?
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maybe all the forum regulars could chip in and have one each?
And then we would see how many different engines would fit an older Ligier. From restored electric in Essex to Carlos Fandago multi valved complication in the hedge
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I wouldnt have a clue how to restore an electric vehicle!
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Buy a box of sparks, I suppose? Otherwise it conks out when you get to the end of the extension lead.
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I can't see the listing? Any one got a link ? If it's 13 odd cars I will buy one if your all chipping in
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Under parts, not cars.
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I can't see the listing? Any one got a link ? If it's 13 odd cars I will buy one if your all chipping in
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261700640337 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261700640337)
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They look cool , I would chip in for 1 , but I could collect 3 on my truck if anyone's interested
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I've always thought they were about the best looking of the Sans Permis cars from that period. I'd take one.
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It's Cambridge so not far from me , I could actually pick them all up if there's interest on here because I don't want to be stuck with 13 the misses will go nuts !
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Too find it I just entered Ligier electric
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Oh eckkk what have I started? I think the main problem would be where to plonk them down whilst all those that wanted one came and picked there's up. I dare say the seller would want them all gone ASAP. Also some may be incomplete and only suitable for parts. I see some have had there roofs jumped on by vandals.
I'm not going to get involved but suffice to say that if someone wanted to take the challange on I would have one, maybe even the Enfield if the rumour is true.
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No rumour the ad is there . Look ligier electric find the ad then - other items for sale ? And there's your Enfield
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Not really enough takers at the moment. Bob has spotted the probs. There does seem to be a need for speed in removal. If a group were to buy I would suggest 2 each, a good and a bad one for 6 peeps and one for the pot. Clearly someone would have to control the trade. Nearest is best. I certainly could do it, but I would not, as I do not think all would find it acceptable for various reasons, plus I do not trade anymore. This could look like trading. Such a group should be free of any stress and be sure fair terms are to be had. It would seem sense to then swap the parts needed between the buyers to get 6 runners, before then attempting to complete the secondary cars, some of which would pass on into the wider market or to make one out of two, possibly in the group.
The Enfield is an attractive machine. As standard they were early on the scene and suffered from a restricted range. Not a prob to all. I would think some modern technology might improve the performance. If I lived in a more urban area I would be very tempted, as I quite like the styling, though it gets a bit square at the rear. Had a few over the years and I believe I hold a manual for them. Remember to add the cost of nine, I think, batteries. Eight locomotion, one reserve and functions. Quite a lot of money.
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Sounds interesting and will follow with interest but space would be a problem for me - good luck all :) timings not bad as quite a few of the workers will be getting a few days off next week
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I wonder if it is part of the cunning plan to clear all the cars together. If your away from home a lot, these weekends become a bit sacrosanct, I imagine. Nice not to have to be anywhere.
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I'm in contact with the seller via eBay and trying to get there tonight to see how bad the cars are , is there any information you lot are after or certain pictures ?
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Well there is/was clearly other cars there. Might be a 50's Special.
More to the point is to estimate how many of these cars are complete and likely to run again as relatively simple jobs. My guess is of those interested most will not be after a tricky job. Straightening roofs out will be a game, for instance. The glass being flat is a help.
I am not really up on the power these would have had originally, if ICE. If there is a cone drive there is a possibility that other motive power might fit in reasonably simply. That offers a different way forward and might suit some. Stuart would seem to have found that if the number of each car is known then the car can get itself registered reasonably simply. Need to know the numbers to do that. They might not all have that. Then there might be paper records with them. Might find out what buys them.
For Enfield fanciers its really important that the front screen is good. It does not look to horrible to me but the screen could be its value in extremis.
Wish I could go too. Looks like an interesting place.
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Ok cool I'm going at 530 armed with a camera
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Prospective buyers also need to bare in mind a set of batteries would cost about £1000. Cheaper to fit an engine I guess. If all 13 cars have a full set of old batteries, the scrap value is likely to be about £800. With that in mind the cars may well be for nothing! People are bidding though so some of them may well be scrap merchants.
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As far as I can make out from the photos, the Cambridge 13 are all 1984-86 Ligier JS6's, which would have all been fitted with 49cc, 9hp Derbi two-stroke engines. I think it was only later versions that had the 325cc diesel option. According to my papers, their vital statistics are; 1974mm long, 1280mm wide and 1434mm tall. Or 6ft 5" long, 4ft 2.5" wide and 4ft 8.5" tall in proper measurements.
If you can get a list of all visible reg numbers, I can advice on presence of V5's. Also, armed with said numbers I can often come up with further background history... It might also be worth poking about a bit if you can, just in case the original engines are all sat on a pallet somewhere. Also, is the Enfield bonnet anywhere? I'm itching to know what the low old thing with spoked wheel & big brake drum is in one pic and that front wing with headlight that's poking into a couple of other pics as well. Basically, do what I would & take photos of EVERYTHING everywhere!
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Hang on a mo ! Stuart you can't have it both ways ! Is .50 a proper measurement , I think not . Hang on to the lowest common denominator and please use the fraction 1/2 . That's all for now from pedants corner :)
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Decimal inches are a perfectly legitimate unit of measurement.
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Plus it's slightly less confusing for the casual quick reader than writing out 6ft 5" long, 4ft 2 1/2" wide and 4ft 8 1/2" tall. Or is that just me? Methinks the rarely-used-these-days poll button might get an airing.... ;)
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Possibly in your world Bob but I am old fashioned and have never used the phrase .5 of an inch in which case it gets very confusing when stating 1/16th of an inch in decimal just for example , doesn't it ?
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Right just got back , bad news on photos flash wouldn't work , the car was a raliegh car , most of the cars seem pretty good just really dirty but theres about 4 real pigs , no battery's I could see , the worst part is Actually getting the cars out of the barn , it's down a dirt track with loads of mud , wheels seem seized and they are bloody heavy , the bloke said his had a few cash offers but wants the auction to run , I don't want to put to much info on so if any wants to know more pm me
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Am I wrong or is it just the adventure of it all ? Hmmm I have begun to suspect that if only one such vehicle in sort of condition was on eBay requiring £1000 worth of batteries or a transplant perhaps it might have barely raised an eyebrow ? It's possibly worth thinking on that before bidding - but then again the thrill of being involved in a coup hmmm
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its always about the adventure of doing something and getting a job done ! If they go for a decent amount of money i will make a bidd but to do them trips in my truck is going to cost £100 just in diesel and couple of days work , so if you take effort in to account then it's really not worth it in most people's opinions
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Does anybody know what sort of engines would easily fit in these cars and mate well with their cone drives?
How are the engines mounted and usually coupled to cone drives?
Is the engine mounted on a flat plate with slots for adjusting belt tension by sliding the engine?
Is the motive force transmitted by belt as in my HMV Freeway, or something else?
I am not interested in another electric, but if reasonably exciting and cheap IC engines could be found and easily adapted, I would be happy to pay for the best two cars, and pay a fairly higher than proportionate share for them as well as their collection.
Used snowmobile and wave runner engines can be quite compact and powerful, and can often be bought quite cheaply on E Bay here.
Thank you very much Steve for taking such an active role.
It is indeed the "dooer" in you that can make all the difference in a situation like this.
Please reserve the top two for me, unless of course you want them for yourself, and if that be the case, make it the top two of the 11 remaining.
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My flippant answer to what unit mates with the cone drive is an ICE engine, possible 99cc extra shoved in.
In the absence of piccy piccys or paperwork, it is hard to know. My assumption is the electric motor is either driving a belt to the expanding cone, or it has one of a pair of expanding cones on its output shaft. Might be a Salisbury system. The cone drive would match up to the torque of an electric motor, but you loose the braking the motor offers, I think. So keep the cones and in theory a Spriggs and Bratton lawn mower lump would work. Low tech. Roots Honda 350cc generator engine? Oh I have given him an idea now, schtum, schtum. The Peel Ligier J350
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They are belt driven from a huge electric motor , same idea as what Al said , it's like my qpod gear box which is a direct drive and when it had an engine in it must of been a clutch like a go kart , i think some one will pay lot for them turn up realise how much of a mission it is to collect and not bother , I will see what happends , there's 4 that I would say look perfect just loads of bird poo on them
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Following a tip off this morning from no less than Tony Marshall himself; I have finally found a lead on the background of these cars! Called the City Wheels project, it turns out Coventry Transport Museum has one deep in their vehicle store, and their collection website has this to say about it;
1987 City Wheels Electric Car
Location In Museum: Store
This vehicle and its support systems were designed for moving round city centres, large factories and airports. The system was designed as an alternative to private and hire car use. Its benefits would have included low running costs, little noise, virtually no pollution and a solution to parking problems.
To pay for the hire of a vehicle a credit card system was suggested. The user would wipe a credit card through a point on the relay terminal and would be billed automatically. The relay station would accommodate up to 16 cars and would recharge their batteries in 30 minutes. The car has an on-board computer which would control all aspects of the vehicle’s hire, including constant monitoring of the battery.
A number of cities, including Coventry, were interested in adopting this system for inner city use. Unfortunately the parent company, City Wheels Limited, never received the financial support needed and the schemes never came to fruition.
Methinks there's certainly a story to be told here....
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up to16 cars ? hmmm just wondering if there were in fact 16 ? 13 for sale ,1 in the museum and 2 more ? .........
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Spies report other vehicles in the buildings, unclear as to what. Info comes forward slowly. More info on the Ligier themselves being found.
Interesting find. Wish it were near here. Sounds right up my street. Still to much else to do really.
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i don't know if I should list the cars I saw but this is the Raleigh car , interesting place
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The Cambridge 13 currently stands at £1080 so dreams of them going for a song look unlikely now. Still just scrap money though.
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Game over for me ! I'm going to try get over there again Sunday morning before they are moved to get some pictures of how they've been for 30 years
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Gosh Bob did you really think they would ever go for less than £80 each ? Wow ever the optimist :)
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Rather what I thought. But then you have to take all. To most folk that is actually a disincentive.
Maybe an open day would have been better. Sealed bids on each car with a bit of a gap so an over enthusiastic bidder does not over buy and need to void on a later deal for a 4th car say. So an opening of bids every fifth minute. Only take an hour to do. I suspect there would have been more buyers than cars. Plenty of hands to help loading too. Job lot of cash like money, no eBay fees and 13 odd happy chappies. I think this way they get less boodle. Look at the Bub Museum auction, indeed if it were me I would be banging the other cars out too.
At what eBay price do we enter the Blackadder 'Oh Bubblecar! I have bid to much. Come Bolders, lets run away' on a brief viewing of the reality of the deal? Its another game on the back of an interesting sideshow I could easily have missed had it not been posted.
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Gosh Bob did you really think they would ever go for less than £80 each ? Wow ever the optimist :)
Errr, yes.
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Count me as still in for paying 1/4 of the total purchase price for two of the top 4 "perfect cars", as well as reasonable pick up and delivery fees.
Can we make this a team effort? ;)
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Err No.
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What has happened to Bob's brain?
He seems to have come down with a case of the "errs" ???
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Errr hope its not the beginning of Tourettes! [no, thats in the workshop ;D] I think it was a case of brain freeze Steve. Just got in from doing some maintenance on the G-wiz. About once a year one of the brake slave cylinders decides to seize up. I remove it, dismantle and clean it, reassemble with red Lockhead grease and it will be all right for another couple of years.
There has been a cold wind in Hornchurch today.
Just starting to Thaw out. Errr thats better!
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Surely Bob the Reliant on eBay , failed MOT 8years ago and since left outside , must be a MUCH safer bet at £400 do you think narrr ;)
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Most definitely. It has an engine and everything!
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Would it not be easier to buy a really good JS4 or JS6 from France, like my one, and use the parts off of the 13 scrappers to make an electric version.
The steel on these cars is so thin you can bend them with thumb pressure when just moving them. The dented roofs on the 13 cars would be impossible to straighten out.
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13 scrappers ? Where are they then ?
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Hi Richard. It may just be me but your posts are getting harder and harder to make sense of lately. A few more words may give us just the information we need to know what you are on about.
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Well in one post Barry talks of " 13 scrappers " in the very next post I asked where they were being advertised as I had not been aware of 13 cars in such a condition . I can be a bit brief but battling with iPhone and it's constantly changing my words to something quite different . On this occasion I thought it fairly straightforward . Errr :)
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Errrr, Well we know where the scrappers are. Its my guess anyway that they will be scrapped.
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I am now confused. These cars are reported as 'heavy'. Yet they are made out of left over oil tins and were powered by 50cc engines offering 47 flat out in original form. They contain no batteries, so where is the weight coming from? Something does not add up unless they have humongous electric motors in them. Are these, in fact, the lightest forklift trucks ever made?
To answer Barry's question. I think. It's because they are there.
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If you look at the pictures on ebay one of the shots shows the batteries in the car or do my eyes deceive me? If enough of them have batteries , there is the scrap value.
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I didn't see one battery in the cars I could get at , the picture on eBay is the circuit board that looks like a battery , seems the battery's go under the seat , when I say heavy I mean it's hard work for 2 people to lift up the rear with the gearbox and motor in but doable, but there's not much to get a good hold of and mud might of made it harder or perhaps I'm a whimp who knows , my opinion the roofs that have been jumped on are not creased so would pop out with a rubber hammer , one car has battered panels and a door bent open but rest are ok really for cars that have sat for years
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Ahh, I stand corrected.
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No, You stand as charged, Bob. Oh, ho ho Mother, I am so funny!
No it will be the motors, I expect. Heavy even in more modern form. If there is only wibberly wobberly bits to lift then twice the hassle.
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Will I be sent down to the cells? Charged with assault and battery? ;)
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Sold to k***5 for only 1,370 gbp!
I am very dissapointed that you were right this time, Bob about not being able to mount a successful Rumcars team effort.
I thought that I had a team going here, and was willing to pay up to half of what the final sales price ended up being for just two of the top four cars.
But apparently despite my inability to sleep the entire evening, our captain, who will remain nameless,was asleep at the wheel, even though provisions for shipping and storage and sales had already been pre arranged, and I had been emailing and calling frequently in the last several hours to hopefully insure against this.
So if you want something done right do it yourself!
I will remember that for next time. :'(
Meanwhile, if anyone can give me a clue as to whom the winning bidder is and how to contact him, I will be very appreciative.
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What makes you think its not one of us that has bought the hoard?
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I never actually figured out what you were bringing to the table Steven , surely you only offered to pay over the average rate for the best two cars and some reasonable expenses but surely that's what anyone would want ? Anyway I think they went for a song and wish the buyer well , I do hope they end up on the British micro scene but that we will have to wait to find out . I suspect we won't hear a word until they are relocated and then it may be when some are cleaned up and prepared for individual sale . Meanwhile this is the other C-W liveried one in Coventry museum
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Well done someone, or some peeps. No idea who bought, but several interested parties coming in there. The price reached was realistic given the logistical issues, and work needed to present any left over cars to the market for a margin to offset purchase costs. My own calculation suggested that the top value of bid offering effectively free cars to my angle of costings and interested folks was around £2,300. However I was not the bidding agent, the financier of the deal, neither I am fussed over gaining ownership of cars I did know I wanted until they were there, nor doing the entire logistics when I have many other things to do.
Other times might have seen me a more active sniffer. There is a margin to be created with work, and if that is the plan, good luck on receiving the reward for enterprise. Otherwise, if split up betweeen some pre-bidders, we will be tripping over Ligier in a while, if they get sorted onto the road. At sometime a group meeting at Coventry sounds good, to see how the cars have faired, and to view the museums example. Though maybe it might be available in September for the National Rally.
Can we now learn what other cars were possibly available? I would assume those who viewed will have secured anything they wanted, in addition to the end of bids. My gut feeling tells me there were/is some interesting stuff there. Maybe its to early.
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I never actually figured out what you were bringing to the table Steven , surely you only offered to pay over the average rate for the best two cars and some reasonable expenses but surely that's what anyone would want ?
That was indeed my vantage point.
What anyone would want was demonstrably attainable here.
I offered a somewhat higher than fair overpay for my two, so as to motivate others in the group to chime in similarly, and end up with us as a group getting what we wanted for a price that was a true bargain for all of us.
Do the math- if just one other person put their money where their mouth was and offered to pay 1/4 the total sales price for 2 of them, as I promised, at the price that they sold for,we would only have had to scrape up 685 gbp for the remaining 9!
685/9= 76.1 gbp, which is even less than the 80 gbp figure that you ridiculed Bob for hoping to get one for.
Yet as it turns out he could have had a perfect one for very near that money, because as I watched the last few seconds of the auction, it became obvious that that there was no bidding war going on.
So now we are to applaud the other individual who was willing to put heir money where their mouth was, and will likely sell the lot divided at 300% purchase price for simply collecting them, rinsing off bird poop and offering them for sale.
The point being, that by offering what you so diminutively described as putting up my money for "what anyone would want"- I was enabling other members of this forum to get what they already expressed that they wanted at a significantly better price than I was paying, and for much less than would have been needed to make them happy.
Ever hear of a Win/ Win?
It can only never occur, if you err, make the mistake of assuming some one else's gain is going to preclude you from accomplishing similar, or this case significantly better results.
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> Yet as it turns out he could have had a perfect one for very near that money, because as I watched the last few seconds of the auction, it became obvious that that there was no bidding war going on. <
So ... er ... if people had joined in with your proposal, Steve, there would have been a bidding war going on. And the final costs would have been higher, no? What makes you so confident of your calculated final costs?
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The fact that our group, represented by a single bidder, would only have been bidding against just 2 active bidders in the last 10 hours, with only one bid offered by each, and the winning increment being only 20 GBP.
Of course it will never be absolutely knowable without being inside the winning bidder's head, but still looks to me like a great deal was there to be had- had we united and played our cards well.
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"I offered a somewhat higher than fair overpay for my two " - steve but surely that was for the best two ! who would offer the opposite - pay a lower than average price but for the worst two ? i dont think so . i believe there were negotiations that some us were not in on but nevertheless you weren't offering a dealbreaker . As i could see there never was any interest in a group buy and as Dave points out clearly if there had been they would not have sold at that price . You wanted the cream with no effort involved on your part - and i suspect so did a few others :D
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Two of what was then believed to be a total of 4 in mint condition except for electrical.
As it turned out there were 9 in that condition.
Someone on a tighter budget could well have offered a pittance for the worst two and got them.
If but one other followed my example, and likely be at least as happy about it for having spent likely less than 200 quid for the pair.
I don't know what negotiations that you are referring to, as the seller clearly let the auction run it's course.
Can't see a thread of logic in your reference to a deal breaker. My whole point was to create a deal maker for anyone else on the Forum that had an interest in obtaining one or more. If you check the history of this thread you will see that there were several that had already expressed interest in doing so.
You seemed to have missed the most prominent factor of all when you say that if there was interest in a group buy that the price would have been much higher.
that point being that no one except possibly Al with his prior experiences to quell what would havebeen others' fears could have handled a buy of all 13. Hence nobody was willing to put themselves in the situation of having to handle an extra dozen cars just to get one for them selves.
My good faith effort was designed to overcome this obstacle for the benefit of all that wanted in, but could not afford to get stuck with either the cost or logistics of handling the rest.
My effort is commensurate with my input, wether it be hard earned cash or trying to cajole a few members to follow my example and put their money where there mouth was.
If the naysayers instead tried to promote the positive possibilities, we would have at least several happier Rumcarers by now.
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Sooooooo I drove half hour the wrong way to pick up a flat bed truck with a winch then back past my house all the way to Peterborough , ended up being a 2 hour drive and a disappointed 2 hour drive back ! The new owner is a nice bloke but has put all the cars bar 1 in his garden , to do that he had to dismantle a door, drag the non rolling cars through the new hole in the wall into the garden then reassemble the door , because they are now out side the cars with smashed glass ( which is most of them ) had the seats and electric boards taken out and stored inside . I couldn't get to the car I wanted as it was to much of a mission to get out at the moment , the "good" car that was kept out for me to buy was not a good car , corner glass smashed , rusted door , doesn't roll , rear shelf that holds the circuit board was badly rotten but repairable , same with the bottom subframe mounts , the front was mostly ok and steering was ok , I can imagine all the cars being like this in some way even though they look perfect from outside , none of the cars have chassis plates that they've found yet and I had a really good look to, 8 number plates came with the cars but no paperwork , numbers are all current with dvla , the car was offered to me for about £200 at the end , after being told the good ones are £400- £500 , you can't buy anything for 200 quid nowadays but even then I just couldn't see it worth that , perhaps i just don't like them as much as I thought because I've bought some crap in my time for a lot more , I'm glad I didn't buy them all in the end but I'm sure someone will be happy with one . But as I say the owner is a nice bloke and said I can pass his number on to any one interested
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> You seemed to have missed the most prominent factor of all when you say that if there was interest in a group buy that the price would have been much higher.
that point being that no one except possibly Al with his prior experiences to quell what would havebeen others' fears could have handled a buy of all 13. Hence nobody was willing to put themselves in the situation of having to handle an extra dozen cars just to get one for them selves. <
That point is clear, Steve. My point, though, perhaps missed you. I'll ask you v e r y s l o w l y, then:
If the group you had proposed had proceeded to bid, it would have had to bid higher than what turned out to be the finishing price. And the person who had made that bid would perhaps have bid again. There would now have been two bidders in contest. You seem to know how high that would have run, and we're wondering how you know that.
You could be certain that the bids would only go slightly higher if you, and your proposed group, had agreed a final bid only slighly higher - but that might merely mean that you still didn't have the cars, and the final purchaser still did, but at slightly higher cost.
That's the way auctions work, isn't it? We narrowly miss out, and then wish we'd bid that bit more - but never know whether that extra bid would have worked!
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That's the way auctions work, isn't it? We narrowly miss out, and then wish we'd bid that bit more - but never know whether that extra bid would have worked!
Your point was already conceded to in my previous responce.
But with nobody on our side bidding at a realistic level, we sure as he'll can never say we gave it our best try to find out!
My money would still be bet on the fact that we would have been able to get them for a price that all would have been happy to pay.
Double thanks to Steve Fisk for once again embarrassing us all with his actions speaking louder than his modest words, and his willingness to put the group's interest at a priority level as high as his own.
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Just checked the history of the thread and can find no signs of anyone ever expressing much of an interest in a group bid except Steven I think . My point way back at the bottom of page 2 may have been on the mark I think
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I think its my fault for saying, mainly in jest that we could all chip in for one. These sans permis cars dont really interest me.
I'm told they are coming back on ebay individually soon so Steven can do his own bidding and being as they are of no national heritage interest I dare say one of us would help him get one down to the container port.
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I don't know what negotiations that you are referring to, as the seller clearly let the auction run it's course.
Can't see a thread of logic in your reference to a deal breaker. My whole point was to create a deal maker for anyone else on the Forum that had an interest in obtaining one or more. If you check the history of this thread you will see that there were several members that had already expressed their interest in doing so.
Richard, if you examine my text more carefully, you will see that I never asserted other members expressing any interest in a group buy, however responces #: 4, 11, 15, 17 and 20 do.
Time for another eye exam as it seems that you are growing increasingly short sighted. :D
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i think a few had fun toying with the idea Bob :) Funny thing this auctioning them off , obvious thing to do but who is going to bid at all knowing that there are more in a similar condition to follow . A successful auction surely relies on a bidder outbidding another in order to get a chance of owning one . If say the bidding starts at , for example , £ 300 and is bid on any other bidder may as well wait for the next one and have no bidding war - right /wrong . i suppose if he prices with a reserve on each thats the answer ?
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okay Steven follow me ;
reply 4 big al - with no interest that i can see
reply11 Malc - " i'd take one " hardly an offer but okay
reply 15 myself - no interest at all
reply 17 myself - no interest at all
reply 20 al - no interest
now steven who was it needing an eye test ? :)
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I know what you mean. I have spent many an hour at Christies where someone had put in multiple identical items for auction. Very often the first few go very cheaply bidders hold back, waiting to see what they are making first. They then panic and pay over the odds for the last few. I also have this theory that lot number one never does very well.
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This is all rather amusing.
The whole problem of buying a job lot of cars is that you immediately have a problem selling quickly. People will not be able to make up their minds on which car to buy, as none will be prefect. Add in that done through eBay we all know the unit price per car. Its human nature to begrudge a profit, so there is going to be something of a cap on the prices in many people's mind. Environment and storage does make a difference to sales and with poor storage the pressure comes on to clear the cars away by sale.
Against this you have the fact that it was abundantly clear that there was not the interest, or trust related to the risk value, to form a RUMcar ring to buy the cars. As Bob pointed out on another thread, the trade - we are sort of trade as we are the natural buyers of such tosh -, often opt to ring auction lots and share out dibs later. (This does not happen, off course, in the same preportion that Mr Wall does not bid items up). This suggests to me that in fact those interested folk on the forum were expressing interest at a pretty low value. I think Steve M was the only person who put a higher value on the cars. The higher the unit price after the good cars go, the more difficult selling the remaining cars becomes as you will all know what was paid for the lot. Secondary buyer reaction will be, why should I subsidise a primary purchaser's better car buy. Again its human nature.
So these sorts of deals are difficult to assemble and generally rely on a uniformly low valuation by a majority of 'buy now' buyers in the hope that those same individuals do not bid individually. The hope is a 'steamer' does not appear from unknown quarters to outbid the ring. From my and the other bidder in our cluster's point of view, that is what happened. But then we were not greatly bothered to own, or not, as we would be looking at financing and shifting some 8 unwanted cars.
The buyer, now seller, has two advantages.
He can sell the cars off in the quantities the buyers want. These are buyers who did not want 13 cars, but maybe two to make one, or something.
The second thing, if he is smart, is he has time to do what my job would have been in our group. That is to take the best shell, give it the best bits. Second best, the next best bits. In this way the cars become more valuable at the cost of two or three growlers. I do not doubt several buyers would have a growler as a spares resource for their good car.
That improvement process takes time. Ideal time to spread out the resale of the cars he does not want. Its quite a lot of work. But experience has shown that that is the way to do it, if you can. But the proviso is, this really only works well when the purchase price is not known, as people will have already made up there minds on their budget on a 'good' car. My 'good' car, using the above method, will be a lot better than what is likely to be a 'good' car ex works. That is where the margin is, its where I made my money, as I offered what was previously not for sale. A complete and wholesome car, no strings attached.
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Personally, I was only expressing interest at a very, very low value. The only logical reason for buying a non-functioning, low interest curiosity that I don't really have room for as far as I could see. I wouldn't expect any of these cars to be worth more than the final bid plus the cost of transport, storage and repair divided by the 8 or so salvageable cars, and I wouldn't have even contemplated restoring one, rather attempting to utilise the not unattractive design and some bits and pieces as a basis for a more practical lash-up. Having survived so relatively intact, I hope these aren't going to go the same way as that 'investment' Gordon, rusting to pieces in an overgrown garden, but only time will tell.
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Which Gordon is that? I assume the brave person who turned down a £5,000 cash offer made. Sounds good to me. Arm would be by return post.
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The Gordon on this thread in case anyone's not sure.
http://www.rumcars.org/forum/index.php?topic=4039.0 (http://www.rumcars.org/forum/index.php?topic=4039.0)
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Yep, that's the one. Assuming the offer was passed to the owner by the intermediary, he turned down £5,000. If he was not told that the offer was made, he has been miss-served badly. The problem with intermediaries. As an investment on £5k, a year or so ago, I do not think alfresco storage is going to cut the mustard.
I think the opportunity has gone, as it has on the Astra. Money has been invested elsewhere and restoration is underway. I might be able to rekindle interest, if the owner cares to get in touch.
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okay Steven follow me ;
reply 4 big al - with no interest that i can see
reply11 Malc - " i'd take one " hardly an offer but okay
reply 15 myself - no interest at all
reply 17 myself - no interest at all
reply 20 al - no interest
now steven who was it needing an eye test ? :)
Now Richard, you are really starting to worry me- that is unless your preferences somehow have arranged the responses nonsequentially.
reply 4- Bob suggesting that if all regulars chipped in that we could have one each.
reply 11- you conceded, but attributed to the wrong party. It is Steve F going to collect one for himself, and offering to pick up a couple of others.
reply 12- this is Malcolm's saying that he'd take one. (My bad for missing the obvious)
reply 15- Bob saying that if someone else took on the challenge that he'd have one.
reply 17- One of Al's many informative posts on just how to make such a group buy, and I happen to know that under those circumstances he would have taken one also.
reply 20 - Steve F. asking if there was "any info you lot were after".
Score zero.
Is it a different computer setting, or the bigger lump at the other end of your optic nerve? :)
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WRONG WRONG AND WRONG AGAIN you cannot be serious ! for example , 2 of many , 15 is ME not Bob , and the Malc one you attribute wrongly to Steve Fisk . Anyhow you may have the last word on this as you will no doubt reply - but wrongly again :)
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I am not sure to what extent folk are aware of off the site communications attempting to form a united bid that were going on that week, you two. Divergent info, possibly. There was potential for placing 8 cars out of 13, Steve M being in on the plot. However only three people committed to anything I know about for 4 cars, with one possible. That bid failed. As to who else made bids, a ring deal or won, I do not know.
Far from always being cast as a doom monger, I here took an active roll in attempting to create some consensus of positive action. I have just trawled the notes on the forum and find the negatives to be placed elsewhere. Not that I think it made much difference to the outcome. Anyway that is a separate issue that amuses me.
The fact remains that enough interest in a united bid could have secured the deal. The reaction was to slow given the limited time, and I do not think that the interest was really there, perhaps it just thought it was. There is little point in dwelling on it, since from what Steve F says you can still buy a Ligier if you want to. That he did not bother in the end is somewhat telling.
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Oh eckkk what have I started? I think the main problem would be where to plonk them down whilst all those that wanted one came and picked there's up. I dare say the seller would want them all gone ASAP. Also some may be incomplete and only suitable for parts. I see some have had there roofs jumped on by vandals.
I'm not going to get involved but suffice to say that if someone wanted to take the challange on I would have one, maybe even the Enfield if the rumour is true.
Hate to have to dissapoint you Richard, but the above has been reply 15 on all of my viewings.
However you do have a reply both directly before and after it.
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Right this really is the last word on this silly squabble. Any more will be deleted.
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Thank god. Sanity prevails!
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Happier New Year??? ;D
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If these 13 cars were originally fitted with the Derbi ( roughly meaning derived from bicycles I think ) :) 50cc engines would anyone put one back in ? And which would be correct and or fit ? Any pics ?
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JS6 had a Derbi type D 50 L
3.69 kW at 5,800 rpm
Compression 12.5:1 (ouch)
Top speed 45 km/h
More details available, if anyone is interested in Sans Permis (bit of a change going on?)
Ligier still exist as a company I think and I am told they are very helpful with any questions.
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Any pics at all ? And what is sans permis ? in that context , a site ? Thanks
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Pity the Derbi is not used on various garden tools and such. It would be a Ligier Donkey Derbi with 10 or more in one place. Nah ha! ;D
Perhaps its time for a RUMcar News Sans Permis Special Suppliment at a cover value.
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And what is sans permis ? in that context , a site ? Thanks
French for "without permit" or "no registration required".
aka French Fridges for teens and others without a license.
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Ah, that thwarting devil, punctuation!
I'm guessing that Richard had read Barry's posting as I had, to mean:
> More details available (if anyone is interested) in "Sans Permis" <
In other words, if anyone is interested, they can get more details in Sans Permis - and, like me, Richard wondered what "Sans Permis" was, that it would have more details in it, on the Ligier.
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No Jim I do know what sans permis means . Barry said more details in sans permis - in a book or brochure or a website or what ? Thanks Dave we clashed with postings :) I think you put it better than me - it's not hard :)
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Better than being a Thwart Hog?
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Ligier still exist as a company I think and I am told they are very helpful with any questions.
It has been a week since I sent them my questions about compatibility with some of their larger, more modern power plants, with no answer yet. :-[
Anyone have a better French connection?
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Blimey, Steve - surely you can't expect any answer THIS week. Once you include office parties and the inclusion of odd days between public holidays, much of Europe stops work around the 23rd of December, and (this year) will resume around the 5th of January.
You haven't necessarily been ignored, yet!
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Exactly like myself off since 23rd and back on the 5th most of the country this year it seems . After the holiday there will be a largish backlog to sort as well
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So much talk regarding forming a group to purchase this lot of cars, unfortunately the forum members were not able to band together in a timely manner to place a bid on what look like a bargain buy.
So here is my thoughts, would any forum members be interested in forming a purchasing group? Something as simple as just getting names together, share E-mail addresses with each other, phone numbers and locations. If this was to go ahead we could even appoint the bidder/negotiator, transport organiser etc.
The team may only be called upon once a year, or once every other year but at least the details are known up front of who is interested and at what commitment level, so that when vehicles do come up we are ready to pounce!
I will throw my hat into the ring and express my interest .
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Hi Steve, the guys are correct, we deal with steel mills in France, some shut down Friday 19th December, to open Monday 5th January, so don't expect an answer for a few days after that even up to a week.
Likewise many companies in France shut down for the whole of August.
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I would be surprised if they are forth coming at all. I would imagine they will be solely occupied with selling new cars and helping someone with advice about engine conversions on something most of them may not even remember is in my view fanciful. Hope I'm wrong.
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So much talk regarding forming a group to purchase this lot of cars, unfortunately the forum members were not able to band together in a timely manner to place a bid on what look like a bargain buy.
So here is my thoughts, would any forum members be interested in forming a purchasing group? Something as simple as just getting names together, share E-mail addresses with each other, phone numbers and locations. If this was to go ahead we could even appoint the bidder/negotiator, transport organiser etc.
The team may only be called upon once a year, or once every other year but at least the details are known up front of who is interested and at what commitment level, so that when vehicles do come up we are ready to pounce!
I will throw my hat into the ring and express my interest .
Its an idea but one thing worth remembering is that a group of individual buyers clubbing together to buy at auction with a view to keeping the price down [otherwise know as a RING] is illegal in the UK. Not everyone understands the law or agrees with it but it comes under fraud. I know dealers in my field who have been prosecuted for it.
That's just auctions though. Your idea could work with cars on the open market. Most of us are lone wolves though when it comes to our purchasing.
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Sounds a little bit dodgy to me anyway and surely not of benefit to a seller . Of course if such a thing was now to go underground and off forum and onto pm's we might never know if it's there or not
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I didn't realize that you Europeans had it so good.
Myself, and an average worker here, take off just Christmas and New Years day, and a half day on their eves.
I will hope to be put in contact with an old timer at Ligier Microcar who could properly judge what the JS 4 or 6's transmission could properly handle in terms of the power out put of their more modern and powerful micro car power plants.
It would also be good to get an identification of the transmission type in the band of 13, as we do not yet know if they were swapped out when they were converted to electric power.
I have also never heard of the concept of an auction ring, or if it being an illegal practice.
Otherwise I'd say count me in.
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I'm not talking about ringing, or anything illegal. It's not even trying to keep the price down. It's to try and avoid what happened with these cars, it's about being organised and a few interested people clubbing together to buy job lots, not single cars.
I will give you an example right now.
I know of a chap who wishes to sell his fathers collection of 4 x Isetta, 2 x Reliant Ants, 1 x Reliant Regal and something that looks strange on the photos I've seen that maybe a Cushman, also spares and odds and sods.
Now the chap knows the price he wants, which seems fair if the cars are as good as they seem in the photos.
I have the money to purchase them all, I have the storage space to keep them all and I could probably organise the logistics to collect them all from here in Norway. I would prefer to look at them first but not home till 15th January.
I actually don't want all the cars, I would have 1-2 of the Isettas and 1 if not both the Ants.
The chap won't sell individually though.
So what I'm talking about is not just pulling financial resources but logistics etc.
I'm a lone wolf when it comes to purchasing cars also but I'm now starting to realise that pulling resources may reap me more benefits in the future rather than being a lone wolf!
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Following on from my last post, I don't want to buy all the cars, sit on them and sell them off bit by bit and make a nice profit, as has been suggested by someone previously.
I'm not a dealer, I'm not in the micro car scene to make money. I Have a business in Norway to run, so don't have the time or patience to start car dealing.
Also like the chap who is selling now, he has inherited these cars from his fathers estate, has no interest in them what so ever and does not want to pay the monthly rent on the storage so wants them gone now! Working in Norway for 28 days I cannot commit to viewing cars, so could miss out.
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Elsewhere Barry is surely suggesting that converting some of the 13 back to Derbi would be a lot of effort . Surely not ? And as Bob suggests could be a lot easier than importing one ?
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A buying pool. Most folk have certain interests. So to work it would have to be a list of the potentially interested with ready capital. Any multi-deal would then have to be notified so that those interested in that/those marques can pool resources. Its a possibility, but would need to be co ordinated by some one/thing. I have suggested such a thing under a RUM umbrella in the passed. The reaction seemed to place this outside RUM's comfort zone, fair comment. The idea still has legs.
As I understood it, the electric conversion was running into the standard vario drive system. That being the case one assumes a Derbi engine would bolt back in. On finding out the vario drive system used and the location of the engine you would find what range of alternatives would fit simply. Anything well fit if you want it to, its degree of difficulty. So like Bob I was thinking an easy, reasonable conversion to ICE with V5C already listed. Only prob, that is not a machine I can use, hence I am out. So far no one has really looked at these cars with a view of actually getting into this, but merely that its cheap enough to be bothered doing something with them. So we still have Steve M exposed as the only interested party who seems to be a bit more deeply committed to these cars as a live project, rather than a bargain snapped up while the going was good. Makes life a tad tricky. Not sure what to suggest.
Yes Christmas has got a bit silly over here. But it does mean that workers have to use some holiday up when the otherwise might hold it for the better times of year. I think our working contracts give much more holiday than is common in the USA as well. In many EEC countries the working week is longer, though, to compensate. I know our workers are amongst the hardest working in terms of hours. (Do the include Indian child workers etc?).
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Would still love to know if one of their much more recent 505cc 21 h.p. petrol twins would fit and work well in concert with the belt drive transmissions fitted.
Because the engine sits amidships under the seat, I do not think the extra weight of a bigger engine would be significantly detrimental to ride or handling.
The extra width of the bigger twin does not look like it would become a problem either.
However, someone would need to measure the height required and available, as well as evaluate the best location for the small radiator. But with the improvement of the efficiency of electric fans over the years, this last concern does not seem likely to be a game ender.
Barry's example is in the museum. Any one up there have a tape measure handy?
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Sorry to dig up an old thread but they are back on eBay , the owner contacted me again and said dvla have given him some log books for most of the cars costing him another £210 quid , he's wife has got the ump and given him 2 weeks to get rid of them , have a look on the link http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/281577303400?nav=SEARCH
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Dear Steve
I have heard the same story from my contact at the Battery Vehicle Society.
paul arnett ( ziggy45_5@hotmail.com) says "micro cars have to be moved asIi have no storage in two weeks time, so if you are interested to buy any please contact me asap."
Sounds like he needs some help.
Chris Thomas
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so the original group never sold? or is there just this one now?
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Yes they sold on eBay and the new owner is trying to sell them on now to make a profit , it sounds like it's been really hard work so far
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They scrubbed up well didnt they!
Perhaps a fresh opportunity for the two Steves.
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Not for me , I've completly lost interest in them from the amount of effort I put in to buy one and to me they are just not worth it , but someone will get excited and pick one up
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They are not going to clear in 2 weeks. Sell the wife! It was ever thus.
I fear everyone has rather last interest, as its an old stick bunged once to often. Wide open for anyone who wants one.
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Well the roof didn't scrub up very well ;) so we appear to have one of the worse ones I think , with no paperwork . Not a good idea at all to try and sell one when the photos show there are more to be had , is it ? Perhaps the neighbours will chip in just to see the back of them ;D
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At 495 gbp apiece, he would be selling for about 4x what he paid for them.
Perhaps he will reawaken my interest if he drops his price to a more reasonable margin in the next couple of weeks.
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But your the hot buyer Steve. Oh dear! Just why buying a publicly kicked job lot on eBay is not the easiest thing to make big bucks from. Time will tell.
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... buying a publicly kicked job lot on eBay is not the easiest thing to make big bucks from. Time will tell.
And he'll get less than he would have, for putting the listing ALL IN SHOUTY CAPITALS.
The worst eBay offenders must be those who use ENORMOUS RED CAPITALS THROUGHOUT.
I always feel much less inclined to bid high - if the sellers can't be arsed to be considerate of their potential bidders, how will they react if there's a later problem that needs sorting out? Definitely difficult to trust such a listing!
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I do hope that's a typo Mr Miller and that you have not taken to using rude language on the forum? ;D
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I also wondered if we were after the woodshed or over the back yard or whatever also :) a bit strong Dave after all to paraphrase the famous late Mr Winner - calm down dear its only a commercial ;D actually I do heartily agree Dave
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Now a scale model of Spa Longchamps and 13 electric Lieger......Eat your heart out Eastbourne!
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Another Cambridge Ligier has surfaced! Whilst browsing the TV tonight & settling upon Salvage Hunters, with Drew Pritchard, tonight's episode saw him visiting Anstey Hall, Cambridge, in search of antique furniture. Upon being shown into one of the large barns round the back, the camera pans round & lo & behold, there sits another one of these City Wheels electric Ligier's. It first hoves into view at just on 5.50 in the below link, and then a few more times as the clip progresses. Is it me or does this one seem to have the back of the roof/body cut off behind the doors?
Also, what is that blue thing in the shed to our left at roughly 6.30; another Enfield?
http://www.questtv.co.uk/video/salvage-hunters-4-episode-5/
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And I thought I was the only one to notice this Ligier. Carries the registration C512SJH
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Does that mean I pass the Krypton Factor Observation round? ;D
C512 CJH, date of registration, 29th March 1986, last taxed 1st July 1995, motive source, electricity, revenue weight 1250kg!
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And in much the same addresshire. Note building references and local plans on research, confirmed by spy. We never did find out what was in the shed as well, though. Just as well, probably, as I should not be buying.
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The same one is still up for sale I think. No interest, it seems. Hmmm.
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That's a shame as he would have had great expectations :'( and now he might have a Dickens of a job clearing them , ouch
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It is a shame. on the other hand the rumsters who were pontificating about whether to buy or not and didnt probably made the right decision.
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???? Bob :-\
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Free comer in the ashtry, Sir. Nectar card?
Probably the right choice too, I think.
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Likewise Al :-\ you are both making no sense . Is it me ? AGAIN :) ah I am with you now Bob , you put a gap in the wrong place and I just couldn't get it . I still don't get Al - but what's new :)
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Update on the sale , 10 cars have been sold , but I don't have any more info on remaining 3
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Selling from one pictured car. Interesting. Still good that something is happening. Hopefully a few pints made.
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much better news :)