RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: AndyL on January 23, 2015, 03:57:52 PM
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Been having a good old scrub on my Isetta floorpan. Corrosion seems to be limited to a few localized areas, and the floor actually looks better from underneath than on top. Quite a lot of pitting around the holed areas, which I think will develop into more holes with additional cleaning. I know from past experience welding flat panels can result in a lot of distortion owing to shrinkage, even with MIG welding techniques, plus the likelihood of blowing through in thin pitted areas so it's making me think it may be easier to replace the complete front pan. I'm loathe to do this, as I'd like to retain as much of the original structure as possible, and the floor is pretty solid.
Another option i was considering was perhaps brazing up the holes.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/IMG_1061_zps6faa05f8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/IMG_1061_zps6faa05f8.jpg.html)
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Annoying pinholes. I agree, a salvage of the floor would be better. I have had a braised floor, but it failed in places, as the rust had not been removed. Lead loading? Mind you braising, by someone with some dexterity, or skill, can act in the same way.
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Tough one: welding is hotter but very rapid, brazing is less hot, but needs heating for much longer and this can cause distortion; it also adds a different type of metal. Not really sure what to advise, but if it were mine I would try to ind a way of clamping/holding/securing stout doughnuts of metal or MDF above and below the pan to cover a group of holes, then weld a sheet of new metal under them, with the Os hopefully reducing distortion.
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I think I would cut out the worst and mig patches in. Not under or over the top but in and level with the section removed.
As you say though, if that were to get a bead or sand blast clean I think it would reveal a lot more holes. Maybe you should make the decision once that's done.
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Originally the floor was covered with a bitumen felt pad to dampen noise. The factory put these on with the shells primed and undercoated, then sprayed the top coat afterwards. I think moisture must have got trapped between the two layers. I removed the bitumen pad, and oiled the panel to arrest the corrosion but the damage had already been done through years of being stored in a damp barn/shed.
I can butt weld well, wouldn't lap panels on a car like this, small holes can be plug welded using a length of copper pipe hammered flat and held on the other side.
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If it's a full restoration I would get a replacement panel and cut back all the pitted areas and cut the same out of the new panel and seem weld it , it's got a lot of swage lines to it so it won't distort if your clever with your welding , if it's just to get it on the road treat what's there and have a big 1mm plate cut out and weld it in with a load of tack welds and underseal . Be Easyer and neater than having a patch work quilt
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I think Bob is right, you have to find out the full extent of the problem before starting to repair it. brazing needs Oxy-Acetylene and I believe you need a licence and safety cages to use it, MIG is less of a problem.
Joke: She was only the welder's daughter, but she had Acetylene legs!
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that corrosion is over a wide area. That means the metal is much thinner over that entire area with some areas so thin, that holes formed.
simply filling the holes does not replace the rest of the metal missing from corrosion that did not perforate.
This is a candidate for a new floor pan/patch panels or some other method of adding material to that entire area somehow. I know there are "spray metal" type services that allow you to literally "paint" with aerosolized steel to fill in things like this but I don't know what is available locally to you or if it would be cost-efficient.
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As Isettas have a chassis, does the floor need to be structurally sound? Even if not critical, I think I would rather have a solid new one than a possibly weak, repaired original one.
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You can braze with oxy propane. Gas welding requires acetylene though, and you can also use that for brazing, natch.
I think ultimately it's almost certainly going to need the majority of the front pan replacing, but it will cost nothing but a bit of time to try and patch what is there. Worth a shot I think.
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Nice one Marcus Acetylene legs ! ;)
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Well done Richard...a set o' lean legs! Head to the shops and buy a pack of Tunnocks Tea Cakes for your prize!
Shame you don't have an Isetta to eat them in ( < a not very subtle return to topic!)
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Judging by the preponderance of perforations, and the appearance of a light convex bend alongside, but just slightly oblique to the transverse bead in your photograph- the floor is weak, and has permanently deflected under load already.
It needs to have its sub standard structure replaced.
Count your blessings if you can obtain an accurate replacement panel. Do the cutting out of your original yourself so that the seam will be least likely to cause warpage, and be least visibly different from stock when done.
No sense trying to save old bad metal, if you have new identically detailed stock to replace it with, for after its painted it will both work and look as if it were original.
Leave it to a good professional welder to properly tack, and then fill in between these tacks in such a manner as to fully seam weld without creating significant distortion.
If you do all the preparatory cutting to the welders specification, you will probably find his charge to be reasonable, and the result to be the best deal overall.
Just make sure that your welder is both experienced and comfortable with the proposition before giving him the job.
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There is no creasing in the panel, that's just shading caused by the change of coating on the panel.
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fibre glass matting and resin + hardener , as a permanent/temp fix , you probably get rid of the car anyway most owners do - there's not many true enthusiasts around .
once the floor is fixed and the seat is back in position don't forget the battery cover ... :-X :( :o (I did -hot pants ;D)
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GRP would do the job, although I think I'd run the risk of being labelled a bodger mind. Epoxy resin with glass cloth would provide a very strong repair, and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the original steel, as it's easy to fill the weave to provide a smooth surface.
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I think I'd run the risk of being labelled a bodger mind.
Not by me, and I'll explain why: bodger is an old name for a chair maker, a craftsman.
A botcher is an unskilled numpty who does a botch job!
Poor chair makers, always getting mistaken for cack-handed fools!
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I'm aware of that term. However I think it's generally entered common parlance as a purveyor of the makeshift repair.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bodger
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I think I'd run the risk of being labelled a bodger mind.
Not by me, and I'll explain why: bodger is an old name for a chair maker, a craftsman.
A botcher is an unskilled numpty who does a botch job!
Poor chair makers, always getting mistaken for cack-handed fools!
I will sit this one out on the bench
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I'm aware of that term. However I think it's generally entered common parlance as a purveyor of the makeshift repair.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bodger
So is an Australian bird wot don't talk to well called a bodgie? I always thought it would be a great name for a small home built car.
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The Oxford English dictionary Lists:
bodger, n.1
Etymology: < bodge v. + -er suffix1.
One who ‘bodges’; a botcher.In modern dialects.
1552 R. Huloet Abcedarium Anglico Latinum Bodger, botcher, mender, or patcher of olde garmentes.
1567 Harding in Jewell Def. Apol. (1611) 500 Be they..Tinkers or Tapsters, coblers or Bodgers.
?bodger, n.2
Etymology: ? = badger n.1
Obs. or dial.
Thesaurus »
Categories »
? A travelling dealer, a pedlar.
1736 W. Ellis New Exper. Husbandry 49 The Sheep-Bodgers, or Dealers.
1810 G. Crabbe Borough v. 74 The warmest Burgess wears a Bodger's Coat.
bodger, n.3
In full chair bodger. A local name in Buckinghamshire for a chair-leg turner. Hence (chair-)bodgering , the action or process of chair-leg turning.
1911 G. Eland Chilterns & Vale vi. 136 The men who thus work in the woods are called ‘chair-bodgers’.
1911 G. Eland Chilterns & Vale vi. 137 The purchaser then employs the ‘bodger’ to turn it [sc. a ‘fall’ of beech] into chair-legs.
1921 K. S. Woods Rural Industries round Oxf. ii. i. 102 Most village turners or ‘chair bodgers’ confine themselves to the making of legs which they sell to the factories, mainly at Wycombe.
1939 D. Hartley Made in Eng. i. 23 The shed for bodgering jobs may be left standing the whole year.
The bodge bit is
† bodge, n.1
Etymology: < bodge v.: compare botch n.2
A clumsy patch; a botched piece of work.
1589 Pappe with Hatchet (1844) 20 You shall blush at your owne bodges.
1598 J. Florio Worlde of Wordes Sbozzi, bodges, or bunger-like workes.
1877 E. Peacock Gloss. Words Manley & Corringham, Lincs. Bodge, a botch, a clumsy patch.
However you choose to fix it. All the best with the repair!
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Chair leg turning was often done with a sapling lathe. Bend the sapling over, wind the string tied to it round the leg and to splat so your foot agitated the assembly up and down, the sapling providing the spring to tension the assembly. The action of bodging?
Old woodsman locally, when I was young, told me that some sawyers used the same idea to run one man saw pits locally, when the Vale was the centre of wood industry specialising in Elm and Beach. They were competing with those who had invested in donkey engines, and could no longer afford the second man. These men were reckoned to be stronger than the smith and many a backsword champion was a sawyer, a 'skill game' the Valesman excelled in. A lost world now.
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I guess if Andy has a suitable sapling in his garden he could rig up such a device to stir a resin pot and that way it could be a bodge and a botch at the same time. ;D
With restoration projects one has to decide on a standard from the start and maintain it throughout I feel. As to restore means to put back as it was before then steel is the only choice for a restoration. If its a fix/repair/mend then any number of methods suggested will be strong enough. Job satisfaction is the other thing to consider. What the individual themselves will be happy with. Which ever method you choose I'm sure you will do it well.
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My attitude is that if a car is genuinely original, then it is nice to keep as much originality as possible, but not to he point that structural integrity might be compromised. However, the floor of this Isetta now seems to me to be too damaged and porous enough that if it were mine I would prefer to replace it with a new floor, on the basis of "quality over originality".
If there were only 2 or3 Isettas left in the world, then originality WOULD be more important!
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Further wire brushing and prodding with a sharp implement has revealed a few more holes as expected, with the bulk of the rot on the lower left of the picture. I'm guessing this would have taken the bulk of foot traffic with folk getting in and out of the car. That area would require a fairly large patch, the other bits might get by with small plates let in carefully, but I'm thinking it's going mean a new floor to get it A1.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/IMG_1069_zpsa6c4335e.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/IMG_1069_zpsa6c4335e.jpg.html)
Gospert gave me a quote of about £220 shipped for a complete floor pan from Germany. This a galvanized panel, and going by the picture it looks totally faithful to the original, although I would need to trim the master cylinder hole to a slot for the Girling model, no big deal.
I looked at the Jim Hacking floorpans, they're £498 plus postage. I prefer to support a British supplier but not when they're more than twice the price!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/725_zps5dd73cf3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/725_zps5dd73cf3.jpg.html)
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Gospert gave me a quote of about £220 shipped for a complete floor pan from Germany. This a galvanized panel, and going by the picture it looks totally faithful to the original, although I would need to trim the master cylinder hole to a slot for the Girling model, no big deal.
Gosbert's floor pans are excellent for LHD, he has been supplying them for many years.
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I think they pressed out aren't they, rather than the ribs being hammered or rolled in?
To be honest it's more than what is required, because the corrosion is limited to the front pan. However the difference in cost is quite small, and if I have to have the floor out, might as well make it look like it came out of the factory.
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You probably know already but be VERY careful of fumes when welding galvanised pieces, extreme ventilation and quality mask absolutely essential. It is very toxic and cumulative, a friend of mine was not careful enough (despite my warning!) and he was hospitalised for 3 weeks.
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If I need to get the complete floor, I will hire a spot welder for a day. It would be done in an open space too, so plenty of ventilation.
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Glad to hear it!
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A new floor is a wise decision I think now all the rot is exposed.
Hope you have more joy than I did trying to hire a spot welder.
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I think they pressed out aren't they, rather than the ribs being hammered or rolled in?
correct. Gosbert has a large hydraulic press (that he made) that makes quick work of things like this when using the proper dies.
I visited his home (and shop) back in 2002 while traveling through Germany, I have a pic of the press someplace, the frame is all made of big heavy I-Beams, it is quite a beast.
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When some of my drums were in production in Texas, USA the first stage was pressing them. The press is 2 storeys high and produces 750 tons of pressure onto a $40,000 die. It is an awe-inpiring sight to see. How much would it slow down if a person got into the work area? Not a particularly significant amount!