RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: 1bubble10 (paul smith) on April 23, 2015, 06:55:08 PM
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As my Peel P50 replica thread seams to be getting a lot of interest I thought I would introduce you to my Piaggio Ape 50.
I saw it on a car sales forecourt (7 years ago now). it looked a little odd as it had previously had had a coffee machine in the back and had an ally section let into to the rear box to increase the height making it resemble a cathedral on wheels. It had got my name written all over it. I pulled my self away as the temptation was just too great - a week later I went back and made him an insulting offer which he was very quick to accept. The first thing I did when I got it home was to remove the ally section to bring the box height back to standard. In the last 7 years the poor little vehicle has been subjected to my own pimping.
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The first modification was an optional piaggio extra (not available in this country) cab heater consisting of exhaust pipe heat exchanger and three speed fan. Made the van useable all year round. Second pimp was the piaggio option extra (again not available here) roof rack - I never use it but it does look cool. Third pimp was the sign writing on the side (same as what Peter Seller had on the side of the Lambro he drove into a swimming pool in Return of the Pink Panther film. Forth pimp was the sun visor (again not available here) - next to useless but look typically italian cool. Fith pimp got rid of the silly little wing mirrors and replaced with Piaggio Ape TM mirrors (much larger and safer).
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Last year I had catastrophic engine failure. It needed a complete engine rebuild. I toild with the idea of selling it on as a project but after a couple of days thinking I decided I like the vehicle too much and that I would go ahead and do the work. I thought it was a perfect opportunity to increase the capacity and give it a bit more go in order for it to keep up with the flow and some. I bought a 133cc long stroke cylinder kit, long stroke conrod and crank all new bearing and seals for engine, gear case and diff case, bigger carb and read valve inlet manifold, stronger four plate clutch and pollini banana exhaust new engine cowls and a new heat exchanger for the exhaust (the wallet had one hell of a bashing Ha!!). The build did take a couple of months as I had to modify bits as I went along, it was far from a simple build, not to mention getting the carb jetted to suite the other components. I did finally get there and she runs very well. Purrs at 30mph, cruises at 40mph and tops out at about 48mph. Hellishly good fun to drive and handles surprisingly well.
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Once I had got it apart I could not help myself and had a lot of components powder coated:- brake back plates, trailing arms, springs etc which then led to the purchase of new shocks etc..
In the second photo the rubber mallet (not lump hammer) was for whacking anybody that dared disturb me.
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Is there any scope to change the gearing to make best use of the extra power?
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Yes I forgot to mention that one - larger drive cog to clutch basket which also got changed.
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Has it got machine guns? Never mind.
I was going to pass a Clouseau comment when I saw the pic. Good fun and probably better than the Green Hornet.
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Green hornet??
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I had an unfortunate moment with it last saturday after driving about thirty miles I felt it nip up but didn't manage to stop the van in time and lost all compression. I think its probably broken a piston ring. I have bought a new cylinder kit in readiness so come week end I shall take the head and barrel off for inspection. I shall post up pictures of my findings.
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Good work.
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A frustration. Might be that the position and cooling air way might be unsuitable for a larger engine. It is possible to get digital temperature gauges, I assume they are thermistors. Bonding that onto the cylinder head, or such, will allow you to monitor the temperature. It is interesting to note that the engine often gets hottest after a step climb, going down hill the other side. With no real throttle applied, it is thus weak on lubricant, and fuel to heat up to help it cool down to normal. A sort of catch 22. Why 'Schmitters flick the choke on descents.
Also with a tuned unit there is a bit of guess work before prime settings are found for timing, mixture etc. Knowing the temperature the engine is running at, is a very useful aid to getting it bung on. Its a bit expensive to have seizures to tell you there is a problem.Since the vehicle is pimped an extra gadget is possibly a bonus. More useful than machine guns.
The Green Hornet was Clouseau's 2CV, if memory banks are working.
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Our window cleaner uses an Ape for his rounds and he fitted the 80cc upgrade kit with no repercussions at all. Maybe the step up from 50cc to 133 is a step too far? Still if the kit is sold it must be possible to set it up to be usable.
I'm a bit of a Puch moped fan and all manner of cylinder /piston kits are sold for them, some work out of the box whilst others take no end of tinkering.
I'm sure you will get there.
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But even those mopeds have to be wheeled home when Puch comes to shove. I enjoyed my Puch Alpines. Good engineering in the main.
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saw one yesterday at Guisbrough N York's running well , also one stands on Carlisle station complete with coffee percolator !!!
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When I was working on a big project Oop North there was always one at Oxenholm (Kendal) Station, selling coffee. An occasional sight in London too.
Also in London I am starting to see quite a few of those lovely old Citroen H vans (corrugated like Junkers planes and roof panels). They are usually used for selling drinks and or Street or Festival Food. There was always a Citroen H at Guilfest and Squeak and myself often got our breakfast from it.
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Ok - I managed to get the head, cylinder and piston off tonight - here are my conclusions on the cause - please feel free to put your comments forward if you think I have got it wrong.
Starting with the spark plug - I think the colour indicates a slightly weaker side of normal (this would cause a small amount of extra heat - so shall weaken the mixture by putting a smaller main jet in the carb.
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The rings in the piston are intact but are seized solid and badly worn as is the piston. Looks like it has had direct contact with side of the cylinder, at the exhaust port, so excessive heat at the exhaust port. Three things I intend to do here. Change the ration of two stroke oil whilst running in from 40:1 to 30-35:1, I have the heat exchanger on the exhaust (which is close to the point that the exhaust meets the head) insulated - I shall remove the insulation and run the heating fan on longer runs until the engine is run in and freed up. The engine cowl is tight to the cylinder which touches in places. I shall attempt to reshape or refabricate a new cowl which shall increase air flow around the cylinder (I could do this in fibre glass using the old one as a mould with some modifications).
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The pictures don't show the scoring in the cylinder very well. However, what is evident too is that the head has leaked but this is probably because the ally head has distorted with the heat.
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Richer mixture - bigger main jet.
Is there a needle in the carb slide - Is it the right one?
Using fully synthetic two stroke oil?
40:1 seems a bit weak? Is that the recommended ratio? Could go to 30:1 whilst running -in
Is the timing spot-on?
Were you going flat-out when it seized?
If the head gasket was blowing you may have heard it 'squeeking'? That may also cause it to be running weak / lean perhaps as some mixture would be escaping?
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Sure the window cleaner would know how much was a step too far :D
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Richer mixture - bigger main jet.
Is there a needle in the carb slide - Is it the right one?
Using fully synthetic two stroke oil?
40:1 seems a bit weak? Is that the recommended ratio? Could go to 30:1 whilst running -in
Is the timing spot-on?
Were you going flat-out when it seized?
If the head gasket was blowing you may have heard it 'squeeking'? That may also cause it to be running weak / lean perhaps as some mixture would be escaping?
Yes I am aware of a main jet needing to be bigger - just typing faster than I can think.
The carb does not have a needle (very basic carb).
Yes Good quality fully synthetic two stroke oil.
in 50cc its mix is 50:1 - they recommend 40:1 for the 133 - I shall go with 30:1 (i'm happy with that - at least for 500-600 miles).
No not flat out but pushing it some and up an incline too. The engine was not fully run in - only done about 400 kilometers since the rebuild and I guess I was pushing her along some for quite a distance (so partly my fault).
It does not have a head gasket - ally head to cast iron cylinder.
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On my vw campervan I was running a cylinder head temp gauge , surprising how much the temp goes up and down, all so how much you can control it if you can easily see what's going on
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Guess I'll see if I can find one on ebay
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https://vwheritage.mobi/GB/productDetails.cfm?iItemID=120265 That's the one I have on the camper , but cheaper led ones on eBay
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The rings in the piston are intact but are seized solid and badly worn as is the piston. Looks like it has had direct contact with side of the cylinder, at the exhaust port, so excessive heat at the exhaust port. Three things I intend to do here. Change the ration of two stroke oil whilst running in from 40:1 to 30-35:1, I have the heat exchanger on the exhaust (which is close to the point that the exhaust meets the head) insulated - I shall remove the insulation and run the heating fan on longer runs until the engine is run in and freed up. The engine cowl is tight to the cylinder which touches in places. I shall attempt to reshape or refabricate a new cowl which shall increase air flow around the cylinder (I could do this in fibre glass using the old one as a mould with some modifications).
There should be a quoted value for the ratio of a given type of two stroke oil. Not all two stroke oils are the same and the differing types have differing carrying oil, if not mineral. The ratio is not optional. It is a given amount, no less, no more. Run it weak, not enough lub. Run it strong, you reduce the amount of burnable charge, and run a lean mixture.
The answer would seem to be to apply a bit of excess fuel. It increases the amount of lub and cools the engine a little by heating the charge.
If the cooling system is that of the original engine, it is unlikely to cool twice the power without some major modification. It is not info I know, but double the power would suggest doubled the air flow of cool air from outside the vehicle, not recycled air from inside the framework.
Its got rather hot, whatever happened. I hate rubbing strokers in. The more care you take in the early miles the longer/better the unit is. But it is a bit tedious, the temptation to use the power is seductive.
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https://vwheritage.mobi/GB/productDetails.cfm?iItemID=120265 That's the one I have on the camper , but cheaper led ones on eBay
Just bought one on fleebay £42
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overheating/engine seizure , is it a new re-bore and piston ?
if so has the man done his job - I ask because the one on the Villiers kept seizing and when mentioned they swore it was ok , then they remarked on the piston/bore clearance - I laughed , it resulted in me taking the manual for proof of what Villiers recommended .
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overheating/engine seizure , is it a new re-bore and piston ?
if so has the man done his job - I ask because the one on the Villiers kept seizing and when mentioned they swore it was ok , then they remarked on the piston/bore clearance - I laughed , it resulted in me taking the manual for proof of what Villiers recommended .
No not rebored - brand new!
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I had a couple of hours in my garage today and managed to fit the new cylinder kit and a larger main jet in the carb. A bit of a spin around the town and some tweaking of the idle mixture screw has her running sweet - I'll take her for another spin tomorrow and then check the spark plug colour to ensure she is not still running lean. I've attached some pictures of the kit and it all going back together below:-
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I have never known the clearance on a Villiers piston/cylinder i.e. what size piston for what size bore - if its always the same relationship , which I assume ,what is it .
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I know you did not have a head gasket but it looks like (from your photos) you had a head leak. This would make it run weak surely?
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I have never known the clearance on a Villiers piston/cylinder i.e. what size piston for what size bore - if its always the same relationship , which I assume ,what is it .
Richard without looking in the manual , but of the top of my head its huge like 20 thou or there abouts , the lads in the engine place copyed the page for future referance .
running in on the Villiers is 16 to 1 , but what I run on daily as around 20 to 1 , for oil its a gallon(5ltr) of cheep stuff and mix my own , usualy in the spare can - give it a good shake .
had lots of bother with self mix oil's in the passed , with seisure's .
lets hope Paul has the sounds of the seisure locked in his head - just in case . It happens in seconds , for me its clutch - keys off - accelerator pedal hard to the floor as quck as that .
O' the joys of 2 stroking ;D (not forgetting 4 stroking or even 8 !!!)
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I know you did not have a head gasket but it looks like (from your photos) you had a head leak. This would make it run weak surely?
The leaking head is probably a result of the excess heat.