RUMCars Forum

General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Big Jim on June 29, 2015, 08:01:52 PM

Title: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on June 29, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
I retrieved my engine from storage today with a view to taking it into work and attempting to free the piston.
It does look a bit of a mess.
Does anyone know of any downloadable manuals and or parts guides for one of these little lumps. I will photograph every stage of the strip down but it is always nice to have reference.

Jim
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on June 29, 2015, 08:17:15 PM
nobel ?
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Bob Purton on June 29, 2015, 08:33:58 PM
Not an easy engine to rebuild. Be carefull when dismantling as there is a roller race inside that has non captive rollers which will fall out all over the floor. Also shimming of the gear shafts is critical, get it wrong and the gears will jump out. Not for the faint hearted! You can order an engine manual from the Messerschmitt owners club but you may have to join first. A good idea anyway then you can buy your engine parts from them. I take it you know the schmitt uses the same engine more or less?
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on June 29, 2015, 08:52:56 PM
Sorry Plas Man I should have said its from a Nobel.

Thinking back to when I last played with it, I managed to remove part of the dynostart (the rotor) and remove the bolts that held the barrel in place. The crank at this point was free. After five years the crank is now stuck in what looks like TDC position with the barrel a couple of inches off the casing. This does mean that the gudgeon pin is accessible (ish) The piston skirt is damaged, (I hope this is due to my initial over enthusiastic attempts at removing the barrel). I had already decided to change the piston anyway after the bore had been honed so possibley the rest of the skirt may be removed and the gudgeon pin knocked out leaving me with just a barrel that can be soaked in warm diesel for a while.

I have just looked at the Messerschmitt owners club site and the manual is available as a download!
Thanks for the information Bob


Cheers
Jim

Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Basket case on June 29, 2015, 09:06:55 PM
Make sure the crank is at TDC when you split the cases. The con rod sits proud of the flywheels and can damage the engine casings (I learned the hard way). Fiddly engine to build but easy enough if you take your time. Reconditioned cranks are around £650........
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on June 29, 2015, 09:53:54 PM
Thanks for the advice, I will have to unstick the crank first!
I am hoping that the crank is okay. As far as I know the engine was a good 'un, well running when it was laid up in the early 1960's, I know that the years take their toll but I am touching vast amounts of wood that apart from the piston and anything else that is missing every thing else is just stuck rather than seized after failing. The piston stuck at what I think  is around BDC. I know I am probably being over optimistic but....
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on June 30, 2015, 09:36:44 AM
If its a Nob engine it should have a 10.2 barrel, rather than a 9.8 barrel. The Nob needs all the power a Sachs can muster, so take care of the barrel. A replacement might be painfully expensive as folk hold on to the best cylinders.
Ideally split the casing carefully and you will at least know where the shims were. That is not to say the rebuild will result in the same shimming, but it is a guide to where the shimming is likely to be needed.
Be aware that the points cover-plate is obscured by the frame on a Nob. You might want to budget for technology to save meddling with the inaccessible points.
Sachs is a good engine, but does not tolerate, or reward, bodge rebuilds. Sadly the prices of parts has got a bit silly. Shop around. 
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on June 30, 2015, 11:15:33 AM
hi Big Jim ,  still looking for the manual (no good to a Bonder !)
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on July 01, 2015, 03:20:01 PM
still no manual , but have come across a Nobel BP lubrication chart - laminated for garage use - Foolscap size ( that's bigger than A4 for the young ones !)

Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 01, 2015, 09:18:40 PM
Quote
still no manual , but have come across a Nobel BP lubrication chart - laminated for garage use - Foolscap size ( that's bigger than A4 for the young ones !)

That would be very interesting to see.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Bob Purton on July 01, 2015, 10:24:26 PM
Do you have the Nobel handbook?
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 01, 2015, 11:38:11 PM
No, the only info I have is the downloadable manuals from the Messerchmitt owners club.

Where would I find such a gem?

On a slightly more positive note the big end on my engine is now freed off. All done nice and gentle like!

I work in the Motortrade (I run a garage and MOT station) My engine is sat on one of the work benches and every time I walked past it today it got a squirt of WD40 and a very gentle wiggle back and forth. By lunchtime there was a slight movement and by knockin' off time it was moving fore and aft nicely. I don't know if it will be salvageable (here's hoping) but there does not seem to any side to side play in the bearing. Sadly the same can't be said for the little end which is flopping about slightly, I don't know if the play is in the bearing or at the piston/gudgeon pin interface, I suspect bearing.

I am hoping that someone on here will now tell me that there should be side to side play in this bearing, but I doubt it!

Are the bearings available/changeable or is a new con rod on the cards?

Despite having intimate knowledge with the innards of Landrover engines and various modern cars, this engine is a new avenue of confusion for me.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on July 02, 2015, 11:27:49 AM
not found the Sach's book yet , but the lube chart is to hand and in good fettle ,

as for the Nobel , I am not a fan , the 21E from Two Gates has better road holding ,

that said the car is well worth restoration , and hopefully kept by the restorer and not sold on .
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Bob Purton on July 02, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
I only have a photo copy but if no one has a real one for sale I can copy the copy if you like. Definatley worth talking to Mike Ayriss of the Nobel register though as he has reproduced some parts and may have done the hand book too.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Basket case on July 02, 2015, 08:03:30 PM
Best penetrating oil can be made at home. A mix of acetone (nail varnish remover) and transmission fluid. Google it - I didn't believe it but after trying it, I was amazed! Swear by it now and it costs pennies. Happy to shim up the gearbox if you get stuck. Measure the end float on the shafts before you split the casings so you know what to expect. For all the seals, springs, bearings etc (excluding the clutch bearing), budget around £225-ish. 
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 02, 2015, 09:12:57 PM
Thanks for the advice and offers of help.

I have found a few sources of spares and my local engineering shop are looking to see if there is a suitable piston  listed in their catalogues.

I will try the home brewed penetrating fluid.


Now let me put my 'grumpy old bugger' hat on.

Decent penetrating fluid seems to have all but disappeared from the market, WD40 is not up to much, Duck Oil seems slightly better, Plus Gas as a liquid seems to be about the best about these days.
The used to be a wonderful brew I used years ago in a green tin, looked like cola and stank to high heaven. It would free anything but don't get it on your hands as you wouldn't get rid of the pong for days. I can't remember its name but you probably can't buy it today anyway.  :P

rant over
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: NickPoll on July 02, 2015, 09:13:23 PM
If you do need to overhaul the crank, don't spend £650, instead buy a new con rod kit from Germany for €185 (Euros ). That alone will save you a fortune. As well as shimming up the gears, you need to examine the pointer on the selector. These are often worn flat and go unnoticed. Also change the pawl spring and check the square pegs on the layshaft. I have a few Schmitts and three Nobels, so know what I'm talking about. I've been building these motors for customers for over thirty years now. Even if you've freed off a stuck big end, you can be sure there are rust pits on the races, so don't risk running with it. False economy, as it will soon seize up and blow up.     Nick.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 02, 2015, 10:09:05 PM
Thanks Nick,
Of course you are right about  the big end bearings, my brain is more geared to Landrover engines, I wasn't expecting to find roller bearings in there! Who in Germany supplies the con-rods?

Incidentally I have just discovered a file of papers that came with the car that I had carefully hidden away when I acquired it and forgotten about. In it is a Nobel Manual, sadly unreadable due to water damage (not while in my care) a few gaskets and spares price list dated 1965. Along with other bits and bobs that I have yet to go through.

Rather more worryingly there are a few letters from the chap I acquired it from to various suppliers asking about the price and availability of pistons etc. This would suggest that the engine had seized before it was laid up. Oh well never mind.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 03, 2015, 07:41:45 AM
Ah, Acetone. Sold openly in the supermarket in France, unless they changed the rules. A land where you are still expected to have some responsibility to look after yourself.

Not heard that mix before. Out of the sprays I still think Wurth Rustoff is brilliant, but it seems trade only. But these things are a bit expensive for whole assemblies. WD40 is not really a penetrating oil. It has its uses but I tend to have the specialist products for specific tasks. Then look for WD40 when there is a deal and buy a load for jobbing with.

Nick is possible Sachs powered, we' re not sure.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Bob Purton on July 03, 2015, 07:52:01 AM
He does jump out of gear occasionally so I guess he must be! ;D
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: NickPoll on July 03, 2015, 08:06:19 AM
I'm always in neutral.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 03, 2015, 09:12:44 PM
Went looking for Acetone in Carmarthen today, asked at a couple of chemists. One was able to supply a 50ml bottle for nearly 2 quid and when I asked if they could get it by the gallon looked at me quite worriedly and may have been reaching for the panic button. I have been waiting for a knock on the door from the local plod ;D

Oh well I will try a beauty supplies place in Swansea. Mind you going into such a place in my boiler suit and grease impregnated boots might raise a (nicely plucked and painted) eyebrow or two.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker) on July 03, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
You can still buy by it in sensible quantities on Ebay or Amazon, or, if your local nail salon doesn't sell it - or you're afraid to ask, most places that sell fibre-glass in quantity.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: richard on July 03, 2015, 10:57:52 PM
How and or why does acetone free a seizure
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 03, 2015, 11:27:41 PM
Apparently when mixed 50:50 with ATF it makes a good penetrating oil.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 03, 2015, 11:37:29 PM
Went looking for Acetone in Carmarthen today, asked at a couple of chemists. One was able to supply a 50ml bottle for nearly 2 quid and when I asked if they could get it by the gallon looked at me quite worriedly and may have been reaching for the panic button. I have been waiting for a knock on the door from the local plod ;D

Try asking for ether, which is the old way of gluing plexiglass. No one will believe you and will conclude your a 'prevert', to quote Dr Strangelove.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: AndrewG on July 04, 2015, 07:47:31 PM
If you were a prevert, you wouldn't need ether, since you could use your precious bodily fluids.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: AndyL on July 04, 2015, 08:42:38 PM
You can get larger quantities of acetone at places that supply resins for glassfibre work. It's used for cleaning tools, brushes etc.

I find http://www.cfsnet.co.uk good

Also ebay is pretty good for all sorts of chemicals difficult to find locally. e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-LITRE-ACETONE-5000ML-5L-NAIL-VARNISH-REMOVER-CLEANER-SOLVENT-/191611392432?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c9cedd1b0

I use the ATF and acetone mix myself. I find it works well enough, but don't expect miracles. I tend to apply it with a small burette.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: richard on July 04, 2015, 11:27:39 PM
I knew a small brunette once but found a large red head even handier  :)
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 05, 2015, 08:49:52 AM
James Bond used a burette occasionally, didn't he. Or was it James Burette using a small Bond. I get confused. Automatic Fluid with an arsey tone might well move stubborn objects though, even a crank!
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 05, 2015, 12:25:21 PM
Burette?
Que?
Is a small female donkey no?

(with apologies to Andrew Sachs)
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on July 06, 2015, 11:43:04 AM
Quote
still no manual , but have come across a Nobel BP lubrication chart - laminated for garage use - Foolscap size ( that's bigger than A4 for the young ones !)

That would be very interesting to see.
( also have one for Mk C/D Bond Minicar )

Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 06, 2015, 06:58:19 PM
Ooo. That's rather nice that is.
I am surprised that BP thought it worth doing a lube chart for such a small number of cars.
Thanks for posting the picture

Jim
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 06, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
I have found a file of info on my car that I had forgotten that I had. In it is various bits and bobs, including a pair of Nobel manuals! One is sadly water damaged and the other is a period copy from a garage in Luton. Various Sachs manuals, pricelists etc. Plus the original Bill of Sale for the car and its last MOT form 1964 along with the original Log Book!!!!!

Yippie ;D
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: plas man on July 06, 2015, 08:37:39 PM
remembering some 1960's years ago , the local council put new trafic lights on the corner of Clairville Common/Croydon Road , Middlesbrough ,  this unknown to myself - who was comming towards the new lights doing the 30 mph'ish at the time - but the road was on a bend , and the lights changed to red , so on went the brakes - the car stopped , lights changed to green , then as I set off the Nobel veered to the left , upon inspection at the road side it was found that on hard braking whilst cornering the rack/pinion had bent and smashed the alloy housing on the steering !     
Spares was only a couple of days away from ''2 Strokes Ltd'' (nuff' sed !)
Then some weeks later some almighty screeching from the rear , only to find a collapest wheel bearing - but it also cost me a new alloy bearing housing , wheel bearings , and drive chain , all from that well known dealers as above !!
also in the order was a set of new points - impossible ! , still never fitted .
not finished yet ! , one day whilst climbing the bank (1 in 4) at Saltburn , it decided to fall over on the first corner , lucky there was a couple of holiday makers who righted me and the car and checked me for damage , needles to say that was the end of my adventures in a Nobell 200.

the best thing to come out of it was sell it and buy Bond Mk D EEF 550 has been with me since  :)

Alan

Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 07, 2015, 08:55:47 AM
Yep, Bond Mk D trumps a Nob. Its Microcar Top Trumps.

Hmm, revisiting the Nob that went straight on and never handled. I wonder if it had a bent steering rack. Not something that entered my head to look at. Would I have noticed while rebuilding the daft through the floor U thing? Doing this was what persuaded me that the engineering on these cars was possibly the worst of the mainstream German offerings. While no fan of the Isetta it has the power to potter along at its design speeds without great stress and I could understand its faults in the light of what they were attempting to do. My feeling is the Hienklel does most of them better. The Nob just does not make sense as there were already better ways to do what it did. I am sure that is why the business was offered as a franchise, rather than marketing a German based product. Smart move.

Bonds are not perfect but they stand far more use than the materials would suggest might be possible. One up to Mr Bond.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Bob Purton on July 07, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Bending the rack and pinion by cornering and braking heavily?  Sorry but that makes no sense to me. Cant see how its possible. For one, there is no such thing as heavy braking in a Nobby! ;D
How comes these things dont happen to vintage Nobel drivers like Mike Ayriss, Ray Dilks, Nick Poll, Bob Cotton , me and others driving cars that are much older now?  The rack is a solid bar of 1" diameter steel with the teethe cut into it, you couldnt bend it if you hit it with a sledge hammer, the casing is a thick solid casting and all the steering joints are rubber bushes which would absorb any sudden stresses.
There must be some other explanation. Maybe Uri Geller was the previous owner? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 07, 2015, 10:49:25 AM
I think the clue is that this car was later turned over. So it was being driven hard in the days when it was current transport, impressing the ladies. Out esteemed Nob navigators are driving the cars with the skill and benefit of there being Classic Cars, and not needed for other than the enjoyment of ownership. Also getting your Nob out does not impress the ladies like it used to!  It does sound like a rather remarkable failure though.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 07, 2015, 02:39:59 PM
The strip down goes on.
Does anyone know how the chain case is removed? I think I have removed all the exterior fastenings but it still refuses to budge. I don't want to go down the Brut force and ignorance route unless advised otherwise.

Jim
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: richard on July 07, 2015, 05:41:40 PM
Small runs nothing , I have the Shell and Castrol lube charts for the Gordon as well and they only built a thousand ?
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Jim on July 07, 2015, 05:49:40 PM
Blimey!
It just shows that in these days of computers you can't get data on modern vehicles, yet years ago companies were happy to go to a fair amount of effort to produce and publish data for very small vehicle runs.
Title: Re: Sachs Engine
Post by: Big Al on July 07, 2015, 05:58:53 PM
The strip down goes on.
Does anyone know how the chain case is removed? I think I have removed all the exterior fastenings but it still refuses to budge. I don't want to go down the Brut force and ignorance route unless advised otherwise.

Jim

I do not remember, but I think the drive sprocket has to come off. Did they not still use the screw holes behind that? Those that take the cardon shaft sleeve guard on the Messerschmitt. That would not be obvious unless you knew to look.