RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: AndyL on August 06, 2015, 10:20:42 AM
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Seems they've done a KR200 (guess the Isetta was popular with viewers). Up for sale for a whisker shy of £25K, woosh!
Looks like a nice job, although I don't think it's quite how they came out of the factory.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Messerschmitt-KR200-1957-/321817884059?hash=item4aedd7359b
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/3L4AAOSwgQ9Vt2Ht/$_57.JPG)
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I quite like it personally. Then again I've always liked customs as much as restored vehicles.
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I too like it, but sad that TV always has to go "better than new", and always wonder if cosmetics have been dealt with more than structural and longevity issues...is the beauty just skin deep?
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I think the KR200 responds rather better to this sort of rock & roll customisation than almost any other microcar would (including other Schmitts) and clearly, both in price and finish, Wheeler Dealers have aimed it at someone enthused by the retro look rather than someone entirely focussed on how-it-left-the-factory originality. If it's finished as well as most of the other cars that they've restored, it's a bargain compared to several of the Bruce Weiner Schmitts!
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I've always liked KR200's. Was never much of a fan of the kR175, thought it was a bit crude, and not mad about the Tiger either, as I thought the lines got a bit screwed up with that extra wheel.
They were always a bit beyond reach price wise, and like many things in the micro car community, you needed to know the right people to find good cars at sensible prices. I found the Messerschmitt scene impenetrable, and that somewhat put me off owning one.
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But which model was it when it started? Not much that is not an optional extra there. But the interior is a botch, wrong, and looks awful. Of course if I researched it I might pull it to bits but as a restoration it passes muster.
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Does it matter? We've already said its a custom job and that interior looks much better than most KR200's. I think its safe to assume they didn't start off with anything special.
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I wonder how long it will last without been trailered :o
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Can you get radials for schmitts?
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I am not sure I can see much in the way of custom parts. If the car is an early de lux, then it will have two tone paintwork, thus. It would more than likely have extras like eyelashes, additional end trimings, clock and so on. Portholes were an extra. The first 6 months of cars did not have torpedo lights, even then they had klienschnittger lights first, before going to the torpedo light. The wheel trims are Roadster, technically wrong if its an early car, but as a retro fit, why not. Its not an early dome, but you cannot buy them.
Early cars did have brown interior, with dark brown piping. But not like that and never, never, do you have stitching on two seat cushions at right angles to each other. Exhibits bad taste. It ruins the interior, and the brown is dog turd shade, not the gentle pastel colour it should be. Knocks a grand off for me. I could not live with it. To be that early the switches are wrong. Likewise the mirrors. If the switches are right then it should not have brown interior. It would probably have been black with white piping. If brown then the interior paint is brown, thereafter its black. I could go on. Its this attention to detail that should command the price. Not that it looks pretty, which it does until you open it. Like a calendar model with a tooth missing.
Nothe interior trim set is pants, needs took out and the correct period one put in to match the rest of the alleged age of the car, early 1957ish. Failing that one of the optional extrea trims, like snakeskin adorned set. A set is currently for sale at £400 that would ge straight in and the car would look twice the machine for it.
Schmitts had Funk radios. They are very rare, big and you cannot pick up much in the way of a station you want to listen too. The two knobs went either side of the small pressing on early cars. The pressing coming out for the station finding teller. The larger hole with a blank plate was for the speaker, which had a rather art noveau surround and grill. Some cars have the grill, but no radio. I think two radio sets exist over here, but your talking about a thing valued in four figures.
No idea if radials are available on 8 inch. The schmitt trike is not designed for them. I think it might be a dangerous move. At the moment the car tends to skid, before it tips over. It is therefore predictable once you have learned to drive it. I feel radials would not give you that feed back and with the likelyhood of softer sidewalls a flip would be sudden and catastrophic. If your going to put round at 45 mph why would you want radials, that demand more power to move them anyway. It would be an interesting experiment but I think quality crossplys would prove the best option for fast work. Its a frustration that despite Avon making a tyre specificity for Schmitts, the Schmitt clubs have steadfastly refused to even talk about a re-manufacture of them. All I here is it would be to expensive. Well without ever asking, who knows? Now the cars are not doing miles its probably to late. I get accused of negative thinking, I disagree, this reluctance to invest in quality is negative thinking and plain bone headed. If the majority of cars work properly, they would more likely be in use. Thats positive. Then cars like the one in this thread would have a better chance of being bung right.
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I've read about the earlier domes. Didn't know about that until fairly recently. The difference in shape looks fairly subtle.
My Dad's car was a very early KR200, being a '55 model. He purchased the car when it was eight years old, and the dome had a crack in the front. A new one was an arm and a leg, plus he found he cooked in it on hot days, so he painted the top silver, and later when the car was repainted the front got a blue bit added, which you can see in the picture.
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Yep, wrong sidelights for '57. But have you got £400 each for a set to put on a car? It all comes down to the age of the car. Have they plumpted for the alleged best bits of each style to make up a car that never existed. Very modern, but not correct. AS I understand it Mark Smith was involved in the project. He knows what goes with what. So if he was the adviser they had access to the information, and spares sources. To do it incorrectly will have been a concious choice. From that, and TV's original brief to be educational ( Hmmm!) we should find the programme will comment, it should have been x but we decided it looked better/was expedient to do y. Now they have admitted this before, in which case no probs. It reflects the dilemma all restorers have.
But botty flavoured, miss matched seating, ugh. I would love to know that story.
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My Dad's car started out black, with a red interior. Quite a sharp colour combination, I think schmitts are one of the few micros that suit black.
He had a bit of knock in it, was going a bit mad, and went in the back of some old pre-war bus in Muswell Hill. Bloke in front had no damage to speak of but commented it hadn't done the Schmitt a whole lot of good, as being very low down, it hit the bumper mid nose which took the brunt. Dad said it taught him a lesson as it was a lot of work to knock the dent back out. The car was initially resprayed gold, then finally blue as you see it.
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Yes, quite a bit of original trim disappeared. My Dad said rust was appearing around the aluminium trim, and he also had to glass up the front floor, as it had some holes in it and welding equipment back then was not really something a diy mechanic had access to.
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What reg number is it. Is it known to still exist. I recall having a car that I think was black over gold over red. To many cars gone by to remember clearly.
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Sadly not. The car was sold in the mid-sixties, to be replaced by a Renault Dauphine, which apparently dissolved into rust as you stared at it!
The next owner got t-boned in it (probably not the best car to take a side shunt in) and the car was written off and scrapped. Registration was RYN 726.
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Oh Dear.
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Despite having lived and worked in USA, I still don't know what "T Boned" means ! Hope occupants were alright.
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Ditto Marcus , on both counts ( not the USA bit )
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Glad I'm not the only one!
We now have English, Singlish (in Singapore and other parts of Asia) and American, and half the population of UK uses half English/half American, the British Broadcasting Corporation and other UK broadcasters now use "Dollars" as the standard currency even when talking about UK ! Bonkers in the nut !
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Is the expression American then ?
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Must be, they always go on about "T Bone Steaks" so I suppose a "T Bone" accident must be when a cattle truck empties its load onto a car !
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T-Boning occurs when one vehicle hits the side of another, forming a letter 'T'.
So far so good - but the Mercans like talking about steak (and, for some reason, bottoms) so hence the meat reference ...
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Makes sense!
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Trafalgar, dear boy.
In Naval battles ships of the line would sail parallel and blow the crap out of each other, as the majority of guns were mounted broadside. If, however, your line could sail across the front of the other's line, all your guns can come to bare, while the opposition has very few guns that can fire at anything important. Its called crossing the T ('Do not cross me'). Much of our phrases and slang come from the sea and Navy, as we were, and should still be, a seafaring nation.
Of course Trafalgar, Napoleonic war, was actually proof that superior seamanship, and fire rate and accuracy, overcomes being crossed. Nelson gambled right, the Spanish and French in Bonny's fleet were unprepared. He accepted that initially the British fleet would sustain unanswered damage, but not significant enough to prevent his less numerous, but better handled ships singling out victims to despatch from battle, before moving on to another, and before the enemy could react in a co ordinated way. Thus against the accepted basic tactics of the day and for the first time, allegedly, this tactic had been accomplished to victory. Napoleon's representatives got 'T boned' by the much better prepared Brits, who proved they were masters of the seas and condemning France to isolation in Europe with the Pax Britannia, strangling her to defeat. T boned almost ranks with the V sign to a Frenchman.
Move on to WW1 and its clear the Brits then forgot that gunnery is the winning element, as despite completely out manoeuvring the German fleet at Jutland, crossing their T twice, German gunnery was far better. So we lost, save that the German's had such a fright, they never came out again, allowing us Brits to claim victory with ships clearly defective in armour and isolation design. The Pax Britannia continued. But we were 'T boned' by our own inefficiency. That we were lucky the German fleet did not press home an attack in WW1 is somewhat proved by the Hood. Laid down in 1916. It was built to the same ideals of Admiral Fisher and was flagship and darling of the fleet. But out of date Hood succumbed very quickly to the much more capable Bismarck in a fashion very similar to Jutland, save both the penetrating shell, and the resulting magazine explosions were bigger, and tore here in half. She went down so fast that the last front broadside she fired was as the bow was sliding under at a considerable angle to the correct waterline. 3 Survivors. Around this time the batton moved to Pax America at sea. Currently they still hold this position, but new contenders are forming up.
Naval war is brutal. So is a T bone car crash, whomsoever the aggressive party was, both suffer damage. A T bone was a victory, but it is recognised as hurting all. It does, therefore describe a car collision of that type really rather well. But I despair of our education system not passing on something so fundamentally British. Its why we diminish as a nation.
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Hood and her ilk were battle cruisers which had less armoured decks etc for speed as were the battle cruisers we lost at Jutland
It was a different story with the battleships of the line which after returning to Scapa for patching and refuelling were ready to go again very quickly the German fleet was not as it had significant damage and never ventured out again
Warspite alone was hit by 150 shells at Jutland
Bismark was disabled by a swordfish with a torpedo so that's not so clever either
as for America most aircraft carrier technology is British and we are not big enough to compete anymore
I know this is off topic but I hate to read the rubbish above
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I would guess like the cut of meat itself, a T-bone crash has to be american slang in origin, certainly the term has been common use in stunt work since the 1940s and the OED cites the earliest reference to the steak in 1916.
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I apologies for offering peer written facts in a shortened form to suggest where the phrase 'T boned' came from.
The battleships were not in the right position to be effective at Jutland, nor when they had the chance was their gunnery in the same class as the Germans. 150 hits says it all really. The Battle Criusers failed, yes. That is the point. Plus they had to perform as battleships, as the main fleet messed up. The Germans won on points, though they did not realize it at the time. They suffered loss of damaged ships pursued, that the British did not, chalking up ship sunk. That was because they cut and run. If the position was reversed would the damaged British ships made port?
Why were we still using Battle Cruisers in WW2? You do realise that Prinz Eugen was probably capable of dispatching Hood on her own. Yet the Navy were stunned at the loss of Hood. Hindsight shows it was predictable, even if it had not been such a numbingly bad sinking. The other older ships faired little better when pressed.
Of course the Fleet was refitted post haste. We were strangling Germany of supplies by blockading shipping. It was our best way of shortening the war! It was ever the British tactic having got sea supremacy, to keep it. That is what Pax Britannia means. Are you suggesting the German fleet was more damaged? I think you will find that politically the will was not there to re fit and have another go. The effort went elsewhere, on land, and the U boat threat was reaping some reward. Jutland was a victory, in the same way that Dunkirk was. It was an error to press home a victory by the other side. It could have been a lot worse. But if you want to believe we won the battle, carry on, your in very good company. What is important is we won the war at sea, that helped to win the war in total.
Bismarck was as out of date as all the Battleships of WW2. Yes, an aeroplane caused her sinking. How many capitol ships were sunk without aircraft involvement in WW2? Now deduct the submarine kills. Yes, very few slugged it out to the death on their own. The Aircraft carrier had become the capitol ship without most people realising it. Again the Admiralty failed to get it and lost Prince of Wales and, I think, Repulse, in a bone headed charge to Singapore. For all Bismarck's might, she should have been an aircraft carrier. Bloody lucky she wasn't! Precedence set, air superiority became more important than sea supremacy. All tactics change.
So doubly daft old Brits. Lead the world in operating aircraft from ships, but failed to understand what that meant tacticly. Much the same as Blitzkrieg was put forward as a tactic in Britain, see J.F.C.Fuller, before Germany took it up. Even then they nearly bottled it at Sedan. It was only because Guderian, who fully understood Blitzkrieg, ignored his orders to halt, and broke out, that the western front saw the spectacular race to the channel. Here you had a leader who backed his advantage against orders, not for the last time either, he was one of Germany's best Generals. Had Germany had a Nelson or Drake at Jutland it might be we would have a very different outcome. As it is Hitler whipped his Generals back in line by keeping them out of Dunkirk for days. The very days he could have knocked Britain out of the War. Crucial as Jutland, as it was one of the deciding factors on ultimately who one huge wars. In both cases a victory lost.
Still without all that I would not have my Schmitts, Hienkels and Goggos. Though some will argue that Bonds are better. At least I know they are not rubbish.
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We may have lost Jutland very much a debatable point but the Germans never came out again so whether there ships were hit or not means they were running scared
The U boat threat was there but again once the aeroplane and convoy system kicked in it was all but finished
Prinz Augen may have fired the shot nobody is certain which ship actually delivered the fatal blow
Anyway back to the micros
Agree with the last comment and again how do you work out which is better numbers sold? Which puts the Isetta miles ahead of all other three do not know much about Goggo's
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Goggo, that is the 250/300/400, surprisingly managed 278,000 odd units. That places them as very successful in sales terms. Not so popular now.
I like Bonds for there uniqueness, and that they defy looks, being very capable things within their designed parameters. I would never say they were a bad car, there are plenty worse. If they had been rare, I think folk would have fought for them early on. Now there are more folk recognising what an unusual creation they are, prices go up. They are brilliantly individual, just not for me.