RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Minidaz on October 07, 2015, 07:16:17 PM
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Hi, hope this is the right place to post.
My names Darren and I'm looking to get my first microcar. I've had a variety of classic cars - currently own a Hillman Husky - but always liked these strange looking little cars, so figured now's a good time to see what's out there.
A quick eBay search bought up the mini-comtesse, which I'm tempted with, with the aim being road registered, but I'm open to all and everything at the moment.
I'm sure there's plenty of reading on here to do, and a bit more researching elsewhere, but fingers crossed, I'll join the micro ranks soon :)
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Hello and welcome. There are one or two Comtesse owners here so you might be able to get a bit of advice and feedback.
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Hello , I had a bidd on the last mini comtesse that was on eBay but I didn't like how the bidd was going and I had a feeling someone was bidding up so i stopped and it seemed to go for a good price , I bet that one comes back up for sale again in a couple of weeks , nice bond bug on there at the mo for 7 grand , looks like the prices might be falling abit
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Welcome Minidaz
I own several Sans Permis French cars. Like the Mini Comtesse, Cars without Permit. In France you could drive them at age 14, or so old that you couldn't get a licence or if you lost your licence say for drink driving.
Some will not agree with me but as far as I am concerned, any of the 50cc Sans Permis cars are not suitable for driving on English roads for more than a mile or two.
Self inflicted euthanasia springs to mind.
They are fun to have and drive on private land but they are just not suitable as transport.
OK for picking up a Baguette at lunch time but that's about it.
I would start with any of the 125cc upwards cars (Willam) . If you really want to drive anywhere (rather than turn-up at shows on a trailer) you need 200cc upwards.
Just my personal view.
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hello there and welcome
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Thanks for the welcome, and feedback.
Must admit, some of the comments online regarding the comtesse do make it sound like a quick way to end up in a bad spot, and being able to drive to shows, even local ones, would be nice, so that specific car may not be the best for me.
I'm in no rush, so plenty of time to see what's out there, see what suits me, and go from there.
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I tend to agree with Barry. If you live in a small quiet village with light traffic and just want to pop out to the shop, or just have the pleasure of owning it and drib=ving on private land then a 50cc S.P. vehicle might be fine.
Somewhere around 200 cc and 40-50 top speed is around my minimum engine size for more than the shortest trip on public roads, and even then modern car divers can get impatient when you not doing the customary 60 mph in a 30 mph limit!
The problem is that the more road-useable micros tend to cost more!
Take your time and see what is available. In the Summer there is usually a RUM cars Open Day, a friendly casual affair, at which you have a good chance of having a ride in various micros and bubbles, if you are polite and respectful!
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I never really understand how anyone can fancy a microcar as they like the look of them , odd really as they differ so much in their looks . There is really very little in common between a Bond Minicar , Isetta , Messerschmitt and a Moni Comtesse just for example . Don't you really have to have a particular desire ?
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I also subscribe to the limited usability of the smaller and underpowered cars. Of course owning a Husky you are nearly the owner of a Bond 875, Plas. Quite why these are accepted as Microcars defeats me, but they are. They are as cheap as you like to obtain.
I have become aware of some really quite interesting and usable more modern microcars on the continent that so far seem to be being completely ignored, perhaps as they tend not to resource from the current favourite resource area of South France. Following the crowd often costs, but getting in before things are discovered is a way to gain a bargain. I doubt I will be buying these up, to much else to do.
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Early Smart cars are now dirt cheap, a few hundred quid will get you a fairly decent little motor. I understand they're not truly regarded as micro cars, perhaps on the grounds of weight but I think the versions with 699cc engine just scrape in, and I reckon they could become more sought after in years to come, as the mark two and three Smarts don't have the same level of character.
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I agree, the early smarts, left hand drive are interesting. My diesel Smart will not become a classic. What do people think of the new Smart range? I saw the two seater for the first time and it looked even bigger! Going the same way as the Mini which is now enormous.
I saw an original 10" wheel Mini the other day and it was tiny. Should they be let into the microcar world (850cc) - they are in the US I think.
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The biggest versions of the newest Mini and Fiat 500 are now about the size of the original Range Rover!
Original size Minis and Fiat 500s are indeed virtually micro cars by modern standards, but they have their own clubs already so not classed as micros for RUM purposes
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The newer Smarts have been diluted to get a foothold in the US market I think. The change to a larger normally aspirated 1 litre engine a few years ago was part of that arrangement I think.
The latest version is not a bespoke design like the original, the underpinnings are the same as the new Renault Twingo.
Modern front ends are making a lot of cars larger, they have to have a larger 'soft' area in front to better protect pedestrians against impact.
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What are pedestrians doing in the road? >:(
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Most pedestrians in London now seem to be allergic to pavements and insist on walking in roads and cycle lanes, usually with babies and toddlers, and usually too busy on their phones to care about anything else.
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I live and work in London, and can't honestly say that tallies with my experience, although I will agree people do spend far too much time looking at their smartphones, many of whom are often behind the wheel.
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Can you DIY a Smart? Not sure I want to try. All far to complicated and not minimalist. Depends what you want really. But you can see the problem. Folk are reluctant to drive Microcars, so buy newer/bigger things and then these become additions to what is a small car. As Bob observed elsewhere, you go back, and the smallest cars were very small, making a Classic Mini a big car.
Has anyone noticed the Duport on eBay? That is the sort of stuff that is relatively cheap, simple and Micro. Forget about Minis, Smarts and such, they are firmly in the light car world.
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I agree that a Microcar should also be a minimalist car. The Smart is far from that. As far as DIY, I have yet to find out where the battery is! No spare wheel - just a tyre inflation juice kit which is somewhere under the footwell. Cross the Smart off of the list then.
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Does any new car have a spare ? I know ours both don't
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Modern cars are just as DIY-able as the old ones were IMO, although thankfully you don't have to get under the bonnet very often.
I know ECU's bamboozle those brought up on clockwork ignition and carbs, but they rarely go wrong, if sensors fail the ECU usually tells you what is wrong if you know how to interrogate it. Mechanically the average banger these days isn't significantly more complex than they were back in the day.
What can be a problem is manufacturers retaining information. In answer to that I would stick to cars that have a bit of a cult following, that usually insures plenty of information out there.
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If I had the space, I'd have a whole assortment of cars, standard size and micro, so having one particular type to go for isn't that straightforward - although my eldest ( 12 ) really wants a Heinkel after getting to sit in one at a recent show.
It might be a case of rather than buying something slower and cheaper, I wait a bit longer, save a few more pennies, get to a few shows, check out what's out there, and buy something more suitable.
And Smarts are quite cool, but prefer my not every day car to be a bit older :)
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if you dont mind getting your hands dirty , and like DIY and a bit of customising get your self a Bond - one of the cheapest micro's ? , also the easy to work on Villiers engine , and spares too .
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I believe Berkelys are similarly undervalued, and less expensive to keep running, with the possible exception of the under engineered bushed differential.
They certainly are a lot more attractive than Bonds, but then again if awkward under dog is your chosen alter ego- you could stick with a Bond.
Otherwise you can have what looks like a mini E type- Cobra hybrid for 1/20 th or less the cost.
Even more affordable in 3 wheeled T60 form. The hardtop T60's strike a chord with me as being attractive in frontal view, and baroque- bizarre from the rear.
For a most affordable Bond- if you can stand the look of the long nosed types, go for one of those, as the earliest ones are more cute and sought after (so more expensive) despite being crude in the extreme.
Ironically this level of crudity in the earliest examples actually enhances value, as it is a window on the evolution of the more modern- dare I say drivable, micro cars.
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The issue of engine size is very much a personal thing. I have owned an isetta and a bond minicar and currently own an ape 50 and a peel p50 replica. The bond minicar was a very capable machine - however, my one was unreliable never know if I would get home again. The Ape 5o has got a 133cc engine in it and will cruise all day at 40mph and has more if required (it has been totally reliable too) Not too sur I would be up for travelling 100's of ,ile to a show in it though but I don't think I would in any microcar apart from the likes of your 2cvs and fiat 126.
I do admit that the P50 has its limitations but the fun factor of driving it around the town makes up for any of its limitation.
It all about what you want from a car which is a personal thing - I drive my cars every week and only attend a couple of shows in a year if that - The trailering to a show 100 miles away a couple of times a year for me would be no disadvantage.
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Ahh-Sol.
The words of Chairman Moi-say-dell remind me of sayings of wise Chinese sage.
"It does not matter how slowly you go, so long as you do not stop". Confucius
Chris Thomas
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I think it pays to save up to budget for what you really want, if it is within achievement. If that might be a while an astute purchase of a lesser machine will fill the gap between deciding, saving and buying. But always try and scrounge a go in your choice. Many a classic is a great disappointment once you get behind the wheel. Each person takes different things in different ways and its better to realize the choice might be wrong before committing to far into an ownership. Case in point Trienkel. Some folk never master the gearchange, even when it is set up perfectly. I do not know why, it just Is.
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Trienkel- Trojan Hienkel are also relatively undervalued in the UK, in comparison to Isettas.
I see them to be an all round more advanced design, but for some reason not known to myself seem to be somewhat more prone to be not set up right or driven by the ham handed.
Theories?
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The reality is that the Heinkel was designed by an aero engineer rather than a fridge magnet
Chris Thomas
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;D
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I think the spares situation helped to suppress values on Heinkel/Trojans.
You can get near enough anything for an Isetta, but Heinkels historically were a bit more of a mend and make do motor. I believe more spares are available nowadays, but once things get tinged, it's difficult to change peoples perception.
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Silly me- I thought that Richard would defend the horror (sp).. honor of the long noses. ???
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I don't believe " long noses" need any support at all thanks Steven
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I think the spares situation helped to suppress values on Heinkel/Trojans.
You can get near enough anything for an Isetta, but Heinkels historically were a bit more of a mend and make do motor. I believe more spares are available nowadays, but once things get tinged, it's difficult to change peoples perception.
Indeed so. Also, as someone mentioned above, information is critical, as is passing on experience. Treinkels have been very unfortunate that some experts met with terminal, or disabling, health problems long before they should have. Much has been lost and what expertise is left is accessed rather on the basis that you need to treat with those that have it, as some have limited energy to expend per day. They cannot afford to waste that active time. That said there still remain a hardy crew that use the cars and get them out in numbers above that which other marques manage at rallies. In short, you have to put more effort in.
The Villiers on the other hand benefits from common usage and the Bonds. We constantly pull Bonders legs, but as a group they have worked wonders keeping the cars going through a long period when they simply were not worth their parts and ali parts. That has stored away a lot of knowledge and they have a camaraderie I think no other club/marque really has. It is common to see Bonder pool resources to get an injurde car going again. Messerschmitts could, but they always had some sort of street cred, and thus seem not to have developed such an open house experience in ownership.