RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: marcus on October 13, 2015, 02:12:15 PM
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According to this reporter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3&v=Y16ObVRvgOE
He seems to me to be a bit of an irritating, exaggerating, melodramatic prat, not "The Worst reporter in the World" but certainly a long way down the list!
I reckon there are plenty of odd-ball cars which are better contenders for that title, not all of them even bubbles and micros.
Show this uninformed twit up, let us know which car you think is the "World's Worst Car"....
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I LOVE it!
The only one I saw was at Bruce's museum.
I thought that I remember that it had an intentionally asymmetrical front body shell in the area of the windscreen and roof.
I didn't see that on this one. Am I confusing it with something else, or could Bruce's have possibly been built or repaired that carelessly after a roll over?
I was interested in buying it, but everything went for astronomical prices, and Jeff Lane became its proper curator, so it can be now viewed in his wonderful museum of the unusual.
Anyone know who the owner of the one in the video is?
My Minicomtesse closed the festivities by winning "WORST OF SHOW' at the annual Concourse DeLemons in Monterey the day before Pebble Beach in 2014.
It was the most highly coveted award of the show.
I will be checking this column for suggestions for future winners for this Concourse.
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there is only one Hoffmann.
Bruce Weiner acquired it years ago and later sold it to Jeff Lane a year or so before the auction.
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According to this reporter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3&v=Y16ObVRvgOE
He seems to me to be a bit of an irritating, exaggerating, melodramatic prat, not "The Worst reporter in the World" but certainly a long way down the list!
I reckon there are plenty of odd-ball cars which are better contenders for that title, not all of them even bubbles and micros.
Show this uninformed twit up, let us know which car you think is the "World's Worst Car"....
Glad I'm not the only one with that opinion! This is a home-built one-off based on what must have been a very derelict pre-war Goliath three-wheeled van with some Heath-Robinson engineering to try and drive it in reverse so that it could be transformed into a more modern car like conveyance. Like all of these restorations, you wonder how much was lost or gained in putting the thing back together and just wish there was a comprehensive set of photos to see of the before and after.
I hope Mr Lane's very interesting collection of vehicles remains intact for very many years to come, even if it's on the wrong side of the atlantic!
http://www.lanemotormuseum.org/collection/cars/item/hoffmann-1951 (http://www.lanemotormuseum.org/collection/cars/item/hoffmann-1951)
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/hoffmann.html (http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/hoffmann.html)
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I should make it clear that as far as I am concerned being the "worst" most certainly does NOT prevent it from being liked and interesting to myself and probably many other micro fans! It might even have some genuine merits!
Let's have your nominations for the "Worst" car in your opinion!
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there is only one Hoffmann.
Bruce Weiner acquired it years ago and later sold it to Jeff Lane a year or so before the auction.
Thanks for the correction. As always Jim has his facts straight.
Which is more than I can say about the symmetry of its windshield angles and roofline.
More endearments for us to treasure.
What was the other "one off" of approximately similar dimension with the sidelong engine that Jeff did buy at the auction?
Another contender for this award?
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This is a tricky one as who decides on what collection of factors constitutes the worse car (ugly, poor handling, weak mechanicals, unreliable, noisy, uncomfortable, unconventional, hindered/plagued with technology an so on). The list would probably be different for everyone. For me I don't particularly lean to one vehicle that wins that award but could name a few for different items on my list.
(i) The new fiat 500 diesel - In 2008 I bought one of these as a town runabout. I think that this was one of the first diesels fitted with the dreaded DPF. Like most people in 2008 I did not know what a DPF was or that the car even had one. Totally unsuitable for a town car and that is exactly what the car was marketed as. Needless to say I sold the car after 12 months (fingers burnt and scarred), and never to be repeated. I have a hate for any vehicle that has an ECU - I own two vehicles (at present) with ECU's but when they start to get unreliable/expensive to repair I shall replace them with older technology.
(ii) Once the Fiat 500 was moved on I bought a microcar virgo (one extreme to the other). This car was very weak mechanically. One of its weakest components was the gearbox and gear change. I was having to adjust the gear change cables almost weekly which never really improved it much, the design was hideous. The brakes which were disc at the front and drums at the back were equally poor. I thought there was a problem with them when I bought it, so replaced the rear cylinders shoes and front pads, checked over the calipers and bled the brake just to find the brakes were no better. The gas struts for the tailgate were unable to hold the tailgate up. When I went to buy replacements I was advised not to bother as the new ones would be no better.
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Ligier Ambra has to be the worst car I have driven. Not because it is the worst car I have driven, though. There are worse, purely through age and crudity. The Ligier has no excuse to be so crap, as it has access to all of modern technology to the date of its manufacturer. Indeed it takes advantage of it, in same very good parts. Yet in other areas, and in selection of what is important for the weight limits, it completely misses the point and shows up the huge problem of a product made to sell into a artificially restricted market. At the same time the Japanese were making similar sized cars into a differing limited market and producing designs full of fantastic innervations. Not all worked out, but it shows up these French microcars badly. I am picking on the Ligier as I had interment experience of one. It was so bad it could not keep up, nor compete with my KR200 - giving it twice the engine, volume and benefits of 40 years of technical developments (or does that show how good the Schmitt was in its day?). The BUMS agreed that driving the engine cover-less Reliant Ant, that jumped out of gear, was a better driving experience, as you new where it was going and when its handling failed. The noise level was about the same!
For total and thorough disappointment, I offer the Ligier Ambra.
However I could list several De Tomasso, Lamborghini and Ferraris, which stylistically got so up there own bottoms they forgot a car is designed to transport a person, rather than be a torture chamber to demonstrate an expensive lack of taste to attract rather unpleasant plastic enhanced females and attention seeking TV presenters.
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I agree that some "super cars" are actually "worst" cars, "car" being short for "carriage" i.e. a device for the carriage of people and/or goods. This word also has an implication that the "carriage" is good enough to carry the occupant(s) and/or goods all the way to their destination in a tolerably good, safe and convenient way. A superca in a traffic jam is likely to overheat and/or burn out its clutch and is therefore not fir for the purpose of conveying the uncomfortable occupant!
The Shelter was a pretty poor vehicle. A praise-worthy effort for an individual and far better than I could do, but it did miss the mark badly on its engineering.
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And all the other Peel P50 Copies. :P ;D
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Sorry Rob I have to differ, but I might be a bit biased :P
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I wonder which is the best Peel derivative, and why? Maybe that should be a different topic!
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I guess that one could end up in litigation
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The worst car I ever drove was a Japanese people carrier we had at work one morning as a loan vehicle a couple of years ago which (as usual) I had about 2 minutes to try to acclimatise myself to before taking five students with ADHD and learning difficulties off to college and trying to make sure that they weren't late. Usually, I can master things like opening the doors quite quickly, but this flash new sparkling contraption with every extra under the sun had the optional electrically powered sliding doors for the passengers. Unfortunately, it was immediately obvious that they didn't work with the car remote. I did manage to get them open with the old-fashioned method of inserting the key into the lock on each side individually, but my passengers quickly found that once inside, they couldn't open them again. It took about 25 minutes wading through the seemingly 10000 page instruction manual before I managed to fathom out that it had been delivered with the child locks set on and with the electronic doors switched off and then to find out where that little childlock button was hidden (in the central consul above your head in-between the interior light switches with some very ambiguous symbol on it -obviously) and where the control for the electronic doors was - under the passenger seat - simple! Admittedly my impressions were probably coloured by the baying mob of students who were all fighting to help me open the doors with any mechanical implement they could find and who ended up catching the bus, but I think you can have too much sophistication. Give me a Ford Transit any day.
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I have a hate for any vehicle that has an ECU - I own two vehicles (at present) with ECU's but when they start to get unreliable/expensive to repair I shall replace them with older technology.
How will you do that then? ECU's are essential on modern engined cars, you just can't get the right air fuel ratios required for modern emissions, plus the driveability benefits.
ECU's are very rugged and reliable these days, because a lot of R & D went into ruggedising components so they stand up to the punishment out in the field. Goinf back to clockwork ignition and carbs is a real step backwards.
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^ Reminds me a bit of my old business partner's Oldsmobile Silhouette MPC, a car in which I was often a passenger but did sometimes drive, in the greater Dallas area in Texas. Not a bad car in most respects, but if you were trying to drop one or two people off it was a pig! You could NOT simply pull over and whoever wanted to get out then open the doors and leave, NO WAY!
"I cannot open the door"
"OK, I'll put it in neutral"
"I still cannot open the door"
"OK, I'll put on the hand brake"
"I s c o t d"
"OK, I'll turn the engine off"
"I s c o t d"
"OK I'll turn off the radio"
"I s c o t d"
"OK, I'll unplug my seatbelt"
........
"OK, I'll turn off the lights"
.....
"Ok, I'll turn off the air conditioning"
"Ah, NOW AT LAST I can get out!"
"What happens if we have a crash, the driver is dead and cannot switch things off and I need to get out of the burning car?"
"Apparently all safety locking systems should de-activate so that you can open the doors"
" 'SHOULD' ???? .....hmmmmmmm, I'm not entirely convinced!"
A really nasty car to be back seat passenger in: Vauxhall Astra (fast back model). I admit that I am exceptionally tall and fat*, so I cannot expect a HUGE amount of head and shoulder room, but that back seat is crazy! The top of my head touches the ceiling, the back window almost presses on the back of my head, the side "window" almost touches the side of my head and is too high up and far too narrow to see out of. The head restraints on the front seats mean that you have virtually no view out of any window. The hard "sporty" rear suspension is harder than a KR200 without the excuse of being a very basic runabout.
* I am exceptionally tall and fat* please note the heavy sarcasm, I am a thin short-arse!
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Being the owner of a P50 copy I do think that the chinese quad components are the cars biggest enemy. The chinese Honda clone engine is only a clone in as much as the clothes its wears and what lies beneath are cheap inferior parts which shall never offer Honda reliability or durability. The quad front end steering set up is not great. anything above 30 miles per hour and the car is at great risk of leaving the road as the faster the speed, the harder it is to keep the vehicle travelling in a straight line. I cant compare it to an original as as I have never driven one - I have heard claims of speeds up to 40mph, and if this is true then the steering and suspension setup must be better than the quad set up.
Is it the worse car???
Some will say yes and others will say no.
For me - I did not buy this as serious transport or a replacement for any other vehicle. In fact if I was replacing a moped for the P50 then surely it could be considered as an improvement as it offers a level of protection from the elements - possibly a little less stable and just as vulnerable. If it happened to be a chinese moped then probably no worse mechanically. I bought the P50 for fun and attention. For those two reasons it scores highly. A nice toy to have and even tinkering with it (there has been a lot more of that than I could have expected and not yet finished either) is fun too!
P50 or Microcar Virgo?
I bought the Virgo as serious transport (so had expectations). The car was very weak, no fun and failed to deliver even as a town runabout!!!
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I have a hate for any vehicle that has an ECU - I own two vehicles (at present) with ECU's but when they start to get unreliable/expensive to repair I shall replace them with older technology.
How will you do that then? ECU's are essential on modern engined cars, you just can't get the right air fuel ratios required for modern emissions, plus the driveability benefits.
ECU's are very rugged and reliable these days, because a lot of R & D went into ruggedising components so they stand up to the punishment out in the field. Goinf back to clockwork ignition and carbs is a real step backwards.
By getting a classic and using as everyday transport.
Its not just an ECU, it is all of the sensors and other rubbish that is part of the big equation in the name of saving the planet. It use to be rust that killed cars but now it is electronics. Modern cars are beyond the DIYer now and even ruling out some backstreet garages. Unless you can afford to invest in vehicle specific diagnostics you have no chance - but even the diagnostics does not reliably get it right. Even on a classic an intermittent electrical fault can be a challenge, on a modern vehicle it can amount to the end of its life. The next generation of vehicles shall need coding of components for replacement parts (this is to try to tackle the issue of vehicles being stolen to break for parts. This is good news for car insurers and bad new for the motorists pockets). You wont be able to even bolt a starter motor on with out hooking up to a computer - this will see the end of car breakers and second hand car parts. I needed to have a code installed on my smart car by mercedes the car would not accept it. They ended up having to wipe the ecu and reinstall back to factory default. Modern cars will never become tomorrow's classics - whan main dealer decides to pull the plug on supporting a certain model then the cars fate is written in stone.
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ECU is indeed the flag of when cars become a liability to own. VW have rather proved the entire green agenda attached to these cars is total lies and rubbish, as I always said it was. It all comes down to quality. Be that design or construction and components. Made to high standards, with honesty, the ECU based cars sporned could function well. The fact is they do not, they are not as green as running an earlier car made well. Older Mercs were made to eat miles, and did. I would have one over one of these modern ludicrous and ugly machines being knocked out as a Merc now. However I do not need that level of performance.
So a MG Magnette or Borgward, offering the homely space, matched to a Pug XUD on a five speed gearbox and uprated corners offers all I, and really, most, people need as everyday transport. It will exceed the speed limits, so cruising at 'normal' speeds is no problem. (Normal speed that never should test the upper reaches of modern overpowered cars). It is pretty much infinity repairable if you certain key parts. A car for life. The Government in its infinite wisdom offers me cheaper motoring as a result.
Meanwhile your ECU will be counting the hours to its self destruction at a future time where you will carry the costs of repair, or scrappage for a new car, accelerating the eventual use of all of the earth's resources. Before we even get there, you will not get me to believe that chips in products are not programmed to die.
But then I still believe in minimalist motoring, of which what am doing is a form. I will retain several small cars to, the ones that really work as serious transport, even today. Modern cars are not about minimalism. They are about greed, and often driven accordingly.
Clubnight - 6 guys, 1 Nissan auto box failed. 1 Nissan based car boiled with out offering a warning. 1 Pug self destructed, no warning. 3 moderns scrapped in a month, as probs unspecified, and thus to expensive to commission. These are cars owned by folk who are well able to restore older cars from a pile of crude. No failed old cars, indeed one is in service while a new modern is found for the winter. Sorry, for me moderns are untouchable crap and appliances like fridges, not cars (Hey, that is what they used to call Invalid Carriages!).
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The worst car I ever drove was a Japanese people carrier we had at work one morning as a loan vehicle a couple of years ago which (as usual) I had about 2 minutes to try to acclimatise myself to before taking five students with ADHD and learning difficulties off to college and trying to make sure that they weren't late. Usually, I can master things like opening the doors quite quickly, but this flash new sparkling contraption with every extra under the sun had the optional electrically powered sliding doors for the passengers. Unfortunately, it was immediately obvious that they didn't work with the car remote. I did manage to get them open with the old-fashioned method of inserting the key into the lock on each side individually, but my passengers quickly found that once inside, they couldn't open them again. It took about 25 minutes wading through the seemingly 10000 page instruction manual before I managed to fathom out that it had been delivered with the child locks set on and with the electronic doors switched off and then to find out where that little childlock button was hidden (in the central consul above your head in-between the interior light switches with some very ambiguous symbol on it -obviously) and where the control for the electronic doors was - under the passenger seat - simple! Admittedly my impressions were probably coloured by the baying mob of students who were all fighting to help me open the doors with any mechanical implement they could find and who ended up catching the bus, but I think you can have too much sophistication. Give me a Ford Transit any day.
How do you get out after an accident?
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The worst car I ever drove was a Japanese people carrier we had at work one morning as a loan vehicle a couple of years ago which (as usual) I had about 2 minutes to try to acclimatise myself to before taking five students with ADHD and learning difficulties off to college and trying to make sure that they weren't late. Usually, I can master things like opening the doors quite quickly, but this flash new sparkling contraption with every extra under the sun had the optional electrically powered sliding doors for the passengers. Unfortunately, it was immediately obvious that they didn't work with the car remote. I did manage to get them open with the old-fashioned method of inserting the key into the lock on each side individually, but my passengers quickly found that once inside, they couldn't open them again. It took about 25 minutes wading through the seemingly 10000 page instruction manual before I managed to fathom out that it had been delivered with the child locks set on and with the electronic doors switched off and then to find out where that little childlock button was hidden (in the central consul above your head in-between the interior light switches with some very ambiguous symbol on it -obviously) and where the control for the electronic doors was - under the passenger seat - simple! Admittedly my impressions were probably coloured by the baying mob of students who were all fighting to help me open the doors with any mechanical implement they could find and who ended up catching the bus, but I think you can have too much sophistication. Give me a Ford Transit any day.
How do you get out after an accident?
I guess you have to take it back to the dealer.
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Untouchable crap Al ? That's a bit strong ! Maintenance charges are minimal ! Even with my sort of mileage just about two services a year , 20,000 interval . Yes you can't do anything yourself but you just don't have to ! My first company Cortina , if I remember correctly , first service 250 miles , 2nd 1000? And thereafter 2,500 miles ? In today's prices the servicing charges would have been much higher back then . Give me a modern. Company :) , car anyday !
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You're darn lucky to get a free company car. Reps? They seem to be the worst drivers around this way, most braking the speed limits and driving up your arse!
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You're darn lucky to get a free company car. Reps? They seem to be the worst drivers around this way, most braking the speed limits and driving up your arse!
Cliff Richards Syndrome?
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ECU is indeed the flag of when cars become a liability to own. VW have rather proved the entire green agenda attached to these cars is total lies and rubbish, as I always said it was. It all comes down to quality. Be that design or construction and components. Made to high standards, with honesty, the ECU based cars sporned could function well. The fact is they do not, they are not as green as running an earlier car made well. Older Mercs were made to eat miles, and did. I would have one over one of these modern ludicrous and ugly machines being knocked out as a Merc now. However I do not need that level of performance.
So a MG Magnette or Borgward, offering the homely space, matched to a Pug XUD on a five speed gearbox and uprated corners offers all I, and really, most, people need as everyday transport. It will exceed the speed limits, so cruising at 'normal' speeds is no problem. (Normal speed that never should test the upper reaches of modern overpowered cars). It is pretty much infinity repairable if you certain key parts. A car for life. The Government in its infinite wisdom offers me cheaper motoring as a result.
Meanwhile your ECU will be counting the hours to its self destruction at a future time where you will carry the costs of repair, or scrappage for a new car, accelerating the eventual use of all of the earth's resources. Before we even get there, you will not get me to believe that chips in products are not programmed to die.
But then I still believe in minimalist motoring, of which what am doing is a form. I will retain several small cars to, the ones that really work as serious transport, even today. Modern cars are not about minimalism. They are about greed, and often driven accordingly.
Clubnight - 6 guys, 1 Nissan auto box failed. 1 Nissan based car boiled with out offering a warning. 1 Pug self destructed, no warning. 3 moderns scrapped in a month, as probs unspecified, and thus to expensive to commission. These are cars owned by folk who are well able to restore older cars from a pile of crude. No failed old cars, indeed one is in service while a new modern is found for the winter. Sorry, for me moderns are untouchable crap and appliances like fridges, not cars (Hey, that is what they used to call Invalid Carriages!).
Could not have put it better myself!! :)
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Cliff Richards Syndrome sounds very painful
Chris Thomas
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You can add the Trooper to moderns downed by silly modern electrics this month. Both my plips have now failed so the car is inert, as I cannot set the alarm system on the ECU. Funny how both failed with 3 months of each other at 26 years old. Now a diesel is dead easy to make inert. It can be done with a hidden switch. No plip is needed, no brain is needed. But Mr Big-Willy has to have lots of light flashing and hoots for his expensive car.
Now because I bought a pre ECU vehicle the answer is surgery to remove this voluntarily fitted bit of junk, bin it, and get the machine none electrically dependant like any good and proper diesel should be! Bit later and this car would now probably be scrap as where do I get a plip without a load of cost and hassle? Besides when is it going to do it again? Might be in Mull or somewhere handy for home!
Company car, well it just is not your problem is it. Anyway your wearing the car out with miles covered not car parks parked in. But it is the way to use a modern.
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Don't think mileage is the main culprit for the failure of electronic components. Age plays a big part in the equation - so parked in a carpark the timer for self destruct is still ticking away. That's the car manufacturers way of getting older vehicles off the road to ensure a healthy demand for new vehicles.
Society has change from a repair and make do, to a throw away and replace culture - the economy would fall apart without it as it now depends on it to work. Think it is driven by manufacturers and encouraged by governments.
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Absolutely. Can we throw the EEC away, please. It doesn't work.
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To conclude this - worse car (obviously a subjective topic) - for me anything with an ECU!
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A fake Larmar with an ECU? Yep forget ECUs, pre-dated machines then.....? Not sure if the Ligier had an ECU.
For me a Gordon would seem to tick a lot of boxes, but I have never driven one, which is the ultimate test. The NW4 (Fulda clone) was pretty grim. Nope out of drivable things I have had, Peel P50, I think. Once your over its specialities it is that which lets it down. The Trident is a much better effort. The Mini Comtesse actually has some pretty good ideas fitted so is easier to live with.