Author Topic: Invalid Carriages now for sale  (Read 43891 times)

Stuart Cyphus

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 01:58:54 PM »
 No doubt everyone has been keenly awaiting the reply from my angle on this topic. Well, you're still waiting. My reply may come later, if at all, but for now we have the viewpoints of Alan himself, who indeed hits several of my nails squarely on the head....

   Once again, and not unexpectedly, I have a client who has asked me to view postings on the forum in relation to cars that I have been asked to market. It now becomes clear why a simple lack of information on behalf of the honourable Mr Jim over a Peel received the apparently un-needed addition of my thoughts on forums. These were inserted for just such a situation as we expected with respect to helping Stuart realise some income from his hard work and not an attempt to make Jim uncomfortable over a misunderstanding. Well done, guys, for proving exactly that which I suggested were the habitual result of these sites. Stuart is now wiser as to where he stands in the world and to who are his real friends and respecters off and on site and who only wanted to pick his brain for gain. The chums have rallied to his defence after several really quite blatantly mischievous postings. Perry has it ‘you couldn’t make it up’; well somebody did actually didn’t they?

  Now children at the back. You put a half nelson onto Stuart sometime ago with unspecific but clear intent by making him the object of discussions on register management.  He was annoyed and asked advice of his friends, I do not know how widely as I am part of his local group of chums where we value him for who he is, which is what friends do, not on what he can do for us, make for us, here hold this smoking gun while we leg it - just in case there is confusion in the ranks. I think the drift of advice was to go for the deal anyway and face the consequences and he chose to market the cars through me. The benefit of this, of course, is that Stuart gained the addition of my ability to move several vehicles at once. It is an arrangement of convenience and trust between two friends and not the business of anyone else but suffice it to say I am hoping to generate some income for Stuart who has no regular income, pension or investments unlike his detractors and little prospect of buying the mainstream Microcar he would like. It is not an alliance with the devil and those who suggest so really reflect more of their own suspect morals by pre judging a situation in reflection of what they would do on the minimal information available. I think we are probably looking at jealousy for being good at what I did and Stuart finding a bit of a stash than any real case history. I will be clear here. I am no longer dealing, unlike some who never registered as such in the first place, I do not need or wish too do it anymore. However I still have regular ex-customers I advise despite retiring from the trade, my word continues to be my bond. If folk want to challenge my honesty they are welcome but should be aware I will immediately call theirs to account.

  The deal is really very simple. The scrappy was sweet talked into making time to sell a job lot of machines; I believe he wanted them saved. I doubt he needs the money and it would be a waste of time attempting taking one or two, as he would not have been interested. So initially the plan was to take the lot, preferable bought outright by Stuart keeping things simple. OK so now he has 8 cars 200 miles away with no transport or storage to put them in. What would you do? Stuart talked to me about it and I agreed to take the cars in and perform the logistics for which I gain a Type 70 free and a few favours with my out of pocket expenses back when we sell. Stuart makes the deal and I know what he paid but it does not alter our arrangement as he has to learn business and I am not going to let him down but gain the best for his interests. So far he has done well.

  Originally the situation was to market the cars so Stuart got a free Type 70 too. On gaining the first batch of cars it was clear each is a curates egg but half are in easy reach of being A1 examples of their class rather than some blue wreckage. It follows, therefore, that rather than distribute all the vehicles as found an enhanced strategy might prove better. That was to sort out at least two of the Type 70’s into road going condition and hopefully netting Stuart additional income for what is a one off deal. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that as a policy on this purchase since the deal was you buy the lot at x price or none at y. There was no time for dicking about. We hit this collection of cars at just the right time in fact, earlier, no deal. Six months later, they will have been scrapped. The situation with respect to the Register and car availability (another legitimate but unending topic as there is not a right answer save the vehicles do not suffer) is therefore irrelevant but to be fair the cars have been made available to all after their collection since I am neutral in who should purchase them as long as they have some money for Stuart.
  
 As it happens it is possible that several cars are already placed and I think we are looking at two possible spare Type 70s only. This is covered by my advert, which is not specific as to which of the cars is for sale for the simple reason we have yet to decide. Quite how anyone can tell which car is advertised/pictured/under legal obligations is therefore totally beyond me. The advert will develop organically as the situation develops and is effectively an entreaty to state interest at the moment since I am not going to release anything. I can only therefore assume that this negative undue interest is based on mischief making with the aim of queering the pitch. Real trade do not do this sort of thing or they lose their ability to trade without money, which is one of my huge advantages over the rest of the pack. But then it is not just Stuart who should be considering with whom they create a working association is it?

  Now onto registration supply. It is a topic of legitimate debate but I would point out these cars are a special case. Remember that these are scrapped cars belonging to the Government. They therefore have no old numberplates nor chassis plates nor title papers which were removed during the scrappage process. They survived because the scrappy thought they were the last and too interesting to crush. In the meantime the ICR has cleared the way to surviving carriages being allowed to be privately owned and registered as tricycles. However how do you register a car that is clearly adapted as an invalid conveyance so technically not a car, without a chassis number or date of manufacture? We think we have a way and not ending up on a Q plate either. It will be proven before a car is supplied. The payment includes all the fees, transportation to inspections and verification processes to be paid for as well as the time taken in doing the task. If you can do it yourself you can save £250 and it saves me a lot of work. Incidentally the registration price is not negotiable nor repeatable since I will not be available to do the running about after supply. Registration is thus advertised separately from the price, as is the MOT, which clearly is only needed if the vehicle is to be used on the road in Britain.

   So the situation is clearer and the pointed D hats have been issued with reports to the head master on bullying. Time will tell if the market agrees with my judgement of the value of these vehicles, which is as it should be. As to getting many Reliant for the price asked I would suggest a well-presented original Reliant is going to be at least £1500 these days. Junk sells for junk prices and I leave it to the dodgy dealers (Inland Revenue allows 4 cars to be traded a year before you are required to place the information on your tax return) to go in their garages and polish it up for a stitch up on eBay. The fact is below a certain price I will buy these excess cars myself, as I believe they represent fine original unmolested examples of a fun interesting anachronism of machinery from a cul de sac in automotive history. All the hallmarks of being a collectable vehicle in fact.

Big Al
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 02:07:07 PM by Stuart Cyphus »

Bob Purton

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
Thanks for that Alan/Stuart. In true Alan style that must be the longest posting in RUMCAR forum history! Lets hope it has answered the questions that seemed to be bothering some. The paragraph on registration I found particularly interesting, for instance I didn't know that Stuart had cleared the way with the DVLA to allow surviving DSS cars to be registered again, as Alan points out, how one actually achieves this is another question and certainly explains the proposed fee, certainly not straightforward and it will be interesting to see if its achievable.
I'm still peeved that Stuart and evidently others thought the thread about registers was somehow aimed at undermining Stuart and the ICR, that's absolute piffle, I made it clear from the start that it was not about RUMCARS, the ICR or any other register I personally know of. It turned out to be a well balanced discussion and revealed a diversity of legitimate views. As far as I'm concerned Stuart is a stalwart of the microcar community, he knows I do not share his passion for IC's but he also knows that if I have something to say to him I just say it, I certainly wouldn't bother plotting some subliminal forum thread to paint him in a poor light!!! Utter codswallop!!!!!!! I'm saying no more on this because I have to watch my blood pressure. One thing I have learned is that what ever you say, whatever you want to discuss, someone will aways get upset. Thanks for taking the time to post though Alan, I know you don't like forums [probably for all the above reasons!] so it must have gone against the grain, I enjoyed the frisky post.    Bob 

adi

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2010, 06:02:44 PM »
I actually wander, what is wrong with some people here?

From what i see, someone discovered a batch of super rare micro cars, and is selling them for a very modest price. I mean, come on, its only 1500 quid! I dont need to remind you how much these cars will be worth to the right eccentric collector in the US or Japan. A hell of alot more then 1500 quid thats for sure!

Someone commented saying ''i can buy alot of reliants for that''. Well, Of course you can! I can buy alot of VWs for my bubble car, so what? Thats just how the world works. Microcars =$$$$$$$$, normal cars = not so much $$$!

And, profiteering? Well, so what if he is? From what i can tell, he can sell them for whatever he wants to sell them for! You can either buy one, or go buy one from someone else. Oh...wait...there is noone else, so i guess you are kind of stuck then! There is nothing wrong with making profit, in fact, if you found a batch of microcars that are so rare and so well known because of how the government tried to scrap them all, you would have to be pretty stupid to NOT make a profit.

I know there are alot of very cool people here, and i would like to apologize to these people for this rant, but some people here seems to have this very strange attitude that:

1) they are the microcar police

and 2) microcars are cheap.

I think you will find that this is slightly incorrect.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:11:53 PM by adi »

Bob Purton

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2010, 07:41:15 PM »
Hi Adi. As someone who makes his living buying and selling things for a profit I cant argue with any of the above. About the "Microcars are cheap" philosophy,its and interesting coin of phrase, I have been thinking about all this and have concluded that a large part of it is that many of us have been involved in microcars for decades and they were relatively cheap to buy years ago, now we see prices spiraling out of control and we subconsciously feel threatened because it means that most of us will no longer be in a position to buy them anymore. The result is that we go into denial and start talking the prices back down, of course it doesn't work, market forces prevail. This same generation of enthusiasts are on the whole of the variety that drives the cars and thus are niggled still more by the fact that many of the cars are bought never to be driven again. Its just another case of "nothing stays the same forever" and it will take time for us to adjust. On the other side of the coin I don't suppose we will be complaining too much when it comes time for us to sell our cars! ;)

marcus

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2010, 09:07:16 PM »
Good post Bob. Similar things happened with classic aircraft
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

cuscus47

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2010, 09:08:12 PM »
Great analysis Bob,   :) Very succinct.    Ian.
AC, Acoma, Argsons, Arola, Batricars, Bianchina, Carter, Citroens, Cushmans, Dafs, ElectricPal, ElectricShopper, Elswick, Eshelman, Everest, Goggo, Harding, Invacar, Levesons, Lloyd, Marketeer, Model 70's (AC, Invacar), Nelcos, Poirier, Reliants, Renaults, Sinclairs,Trabant, Trilox, Tippen etal

barchetta

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 01:13:49 PM »
This same generation of enthusiasts are on the whole of the variety that drives the cars and thus are niggled still more by the fact that many of the cars are bought never to be driven again. good quote from Bob

Interesting this,,,,, the value of the cars increases steadily ,yet attendances at rallys go down....More genuine enthusiasts (who would like a microcar) are put off by the high price of the cars (and their parts)...and a lot of the micro's sold on are disappearing into deep storage.
 A local enthusiast to me has just given up all hope of getting a microcar and bought a tidy austin A30 instead,,,for a third of the price of a recently advertised Scmitt engine!
 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:19:15 PM by barchetta »
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Jim Janecek

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 04:05:06 PM »
in addition to Bob's good quote I have also found that some people who have not only been drivers of these cars for many years but also spent a great deal of effort to try and make things as "correct" as possible are also not pleased to find that eventually the person who buys their car in the future buys it because it is "cute" and not because it is "correct".

So all the work they have been doing for "the future" is apparently for naught.

What they fail to understand is that eventually all the work they have done to preserve the historical details and information will NOT get lost and WILL eventually be very valuable to future collectors.
Collectors like documentation.  There are collectors with money that are obsessed about "correctness" and paperwork and documentation.  These people will not just toss that information, it is part of the car.  It is part of the value.
But for right now "cute" is what is selling.

adi

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 06:29:29 PM »
I can understand all this, but unfortunately, thats just how it goes. You cant control who wants to buy your car. And i dont see any examples of paperwork being thrown away here anyway.

Someone found a batch of invalid carriges, and is selling them for a price that (unlike most microcars) even a normal avarage person could afford. Yet people are criticizing them?

I mean, shouldn't everybody be thankful that they put in the effort to put these cars back into enthusiast circulation? Even if they did it JUST for profit, which this guy obviously didnt, but even if they did, would that surprise anyone? After all, the vast majority of things that happen in the world happen for profit.

I just think its unfair to complain about someone who has done a good thing like this.

Bob Purton

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 07:36:32 PM »
Its a storm in a tea cup adi. If you look back over the thread only one post criticized the price of the cars and called it profiteering [made by a childhood chum of Stuart who likes winding him up!] , I picked up on the word profiteering[didn't say I was opposed to it!] but questioned who was going to get the profit, this question was answered later by Alan. The majority of postings were to do with people showing concern over the photo in the advert not being one of the specific cars being offered for sale,  this was also addressed by Alan in his post.

In the last few posts we had moved on and were talking about microcar prices in general and how the old school are struggling to deal with the rising of them [I for one was thinking about the exotic ones, I want an invalid carriage like I want a hole in the head!]

Could this be a smoke screen Adi diverting our attention away from the burning question, do you still own the Mk1 scooter car? :D :D :D :D

Kabine

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2010, 10:15:53 PM »
This Scootacar Mk1 and the surrounding speculation of its whereabouts is interesting.

The Dorset Echo newspaper carried a picture and article on this car in 2009, where the vehicle was pictured with Adi and the original lady owner. The title read "Clairvoyant reunited with bubble car after reading article.."

Clearly thats why its a mystery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in1B05snoQo&feature=related

I suggest this approach:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Large-Clear-Crystal-Sphere-for-Crystal-Ball-Reading_W0QQitemZ160392941994QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLoose_Gemstones?hash=item25582a11aa#ht_500wt_956



Grant Kearney

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2010, 11:35:50 PM »
Bob, get your self one of these Crystal balls quick before they are all gone.  They really do work  ;)
I was gazing into mine tonight trying to find out who bought those Peels and how much they paid but as the mists cleared I could see  the vague outlines of a Mk1 Scootacar with its new owner.  He was trying to get a message over 'Wanted Scootacar 9E engine and original cowls to replace non standard 11E, good price paid, even more than Andy Carter is willing to pay' sadly I couldn't make out his e-mail address as the hazy two stroke fumes descended ;D


Kabine

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2010, 12:29:43 AM »
Funny how some ball readings make assumptions. I need some cowls but not for the car Adi may or may not have. Suggests your ball is defective ;D. That can be a problem with ebay.

I would have thought that the car that Adi has/had should keep its 11e engine - after all as he and the original owner says it was fitted either at the factory as a replacement or by a local Scootacar Agent. I think its important to conserve the heritage and social history of cars which have been maintained for use in this way - the micros with genuine history and where the ownership can be traced back to the purchase day are just so hard to find now. I have not read many comments recently where people have used the word conservation - surely thats what we should in most cases be looking to do where it is possible, and not restore everything for the sake of it with the loss of important historical details. :)




« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 12:40:15 AM by Kabine »

marcus

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2010, 09:03:12 AM »
Originality and correctness is also a funny issue. My Trojan is not correct in a number of aspects, and a few people have passed comment about non-original parts and finishing, like the interior lining. The grey quilted material is unavailable, so I got a woman to stitch up something vaguely similar with padded PVC. Despite the original not being available a couple of people at the NMCR were criticising this and a few other aspects.
I pointed out that the car itself had rusted so badly that new  front wings from another car were welded on, the engine is not original, and the entire bottom 8" of the car, including chassis rails and engine mounts had rusted away. The seat and some of the windows are also not original and the entire wiring loom had to be replaced. That gave them something to think about!
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

Bob Purton

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Re: Invalid Carriages now for sale
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2010, 09:53:44 AM »
All the same though Marcus, Shame on you for those trim panels! :D :D :D.  I wonder why the trokel club has not had the right stuff reproduced as it is such a visible part? Maybe the costs were prohibitive.