How green are electric cars?

[marcus]

I once estimated that my old Triumph bike did about 1-2 thousand miles a year for the 35 years that I had it before someone stole it. I cycle much less these days, but still do about 200-300 miles a year on average. Although my Triumph had several new wheels, chains and a new pair of handle bars the frame was still solid as a rock.

[Big Al]

  An interesting thread with differing angles coming in. The truth to me is that we do not have a proper green policy at all but one based on soundbites for politicians and on vested interests of various interested parties. The Government has the power to sort most of this out.
  First it would be reasonably simple to have goods supplied with their carbon debt and pollution rating as a new product. A slight renewal of the standard selling data would give us the from then running costs and an end of life policy would provide a solution to what happens when the product is disposed of, including how much can be recycled, on a polluter pays basis. This would be far more effective than arbitrary taxation, but as pointed out, perhaps not so lucrative. The data revealed might alarm folk into quite how unsustainable the Western lifestyle really is.
  We need a cohesive energy policy. Britain is blessed with stored energy many countries simply do not have. We float on pretty much four seams of coal. It is clear that we should be using this, not burning oil which is far to precious for producing just heat. Coal should be invested in as the back up fuel of the future with new technology to make it as clean and as efficient as can be. We then have the fact we have a long coast with some of the highest tide ranges in the world and in a windy area of the world. A real investment to produce genuine power from these resources should be encouraged as should using areas of coast for bio mass with the the bonus of providing safe havens for sustainable fisheries around the areas. Now if you have the costs of energy not imported and under control you can then have a cohesive transport policy. The ICE units days are numbered unless the technology moves to lighter gases generated via the bio mass system or from coal. As suggested electric power has many advantages. The problem with electric power is efficient storage of power. So that needs to be looked at and the prices could tumble if 2/3rds of the vehicles use the technology developed. Also the Microcar could return in a different form. We know the concept works when it is designed correctly.
  Our Governments have sold us out for a fast buck. Why are we reliant on imported energy when we had and still have our own resources and unemployed people? How can we control our transportation when we rely on foreign manufacturers to dictate what vehicles we can buy? It is clear to me what sort of Government we need but sadly it is not available in a fully formed Government in waiting. However tackling our energy problems would provide a lot of export products and technology which, with the reduction in imports, would go a long way to resolving our sinking economy holed below the water line as it is by chronic debt. Funnily enough a lot of the none working entrepreneurial types would love to get stuck into this to back up the boffins if we had an economy that supported small business and investment. Even this obvious tenant has yet to be discussed as part of a new Government policy. It is a scandal that we have been so badly served by those in power and it looks like continuing.
  Meanwhile we romp away with our older cars. Despite what might be said these survivors are in the main greener than new vehicles, until or unless the new vehicles reach the same point of payback on their pollution debt, and I have no guilt about using them. I just wonder how soon the bullshit merchants will be in banning them for not being green or being dangerous to drive. Compared to the production of meat, as has been pointed out, such things are a tiny issue either way. It is farming meat that is helping to deforest the world and highly destructive to the atmosphere. What is worse, running a cow or a car? We hear nothing about that. That answer means changing our lifestyles so it is simpler to pretend and pay bongo bongo land to be backward. We are all going to die as we are a stupid race on mass.

The Bear, ranting for the nation for 50 years.

[marcus]

If you take a small, cheap, functional and basic modern car like a Suzuki Wagon and compare it with cars of 30-40 years ago when I was first unleashed on the roads it is quite interesting. The wagon is "unstylish", "slow" and has poor "handling" by modern standards, yet it out-performs my old MG and Minis in every respect (apart from torque). Better acceleration, road-holding, top speed, braking, fuel economy, reliability, comfort, emissions, quietness, space, stereo radio/CD player, heating and ventillation etc. However, the amount of components and materials used to make it is enormously greater, and a large part of that is all the plastics used for bumpers, interior fittings and all the insulation on all the extra wiring to operate all the gadgets which are now normal, even on budget cars. Our bubble cars and micros are not all that green in some respects, but they do provide sheltered transport with a minimum of materials, meaning that their  impact (spread out over the years of their life) is not too bad.
Now look at huge and heavy modern Executive Saloons, like the big Mercedes Benzes and BMW and just look at how much material and components goes into one of those! MB make all sorts of claims about efficiency and green credentials, but does it REALLy need 3 tons of material and dozens of gadgets to transport one man and his brief case to the office and back every day?!

[Big Al]

Alan are you under the impression that I have a Fizzy [Yamaha FS150] ?  Sorry but its a Puch MS50. Or is Fizzy just a term you attach generically to all mopeds? Then again I think fizzy is also your nick name for Stuart isnt it?

Interesting. To me a fizzy is any small capacity motorcycle/moped. The Yam would be a Nengeng Bike. Invalid cars a S**z Chariot, Ariel three a Granny Killer etc. It's the 70's, my youth, it's ignorance. I was a product of North Berkshire (as was) and Bristol. That is what the slang was then. I do not doubt it has changed and I have not but equally slang is regional. Round here you can be an 'Ozbird for instance ( bird of ill omen, very appropriate on occasions I think you will agree. However the word is really Wosbird used all over Wessex. Round here the W gets dropped when followed by an O, and some other strong vowel sounds, great accent ).

Is Stuart 50cc or in fact a Sporting light motorcycle? Well I defer the pleasure of riding him to find out but I suggest he is 50cc. Another reason he is Fizzer Cyphus, it sounds good, is due to the amount of toilet paper that seems to go missing when he has had one of my famous vegetable soups or a nice meal of 4 vegetables types with ..... when staying here. No idea what he lives on at home but my diet seems to have an effect, shall we say. Still the dogs enjoy the competition. Of course he is also Root after the Robin Bailey 'Tales from a long room' where the guys escaped from attacking pygmies in Root's Shoe, using it as a kayak.

These things make sense when you know. Don't they?