Author Topic: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar  (Read 8294 times)

steven mandell

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 12:45:07 PM »
Contrare- the opposite can be and indeed is true.
Today i am reasonably confident that I will be able to complete a 30 mile round trip in my red and white Nobel to a local car show.  Whilst my AC Petite is at the shop getting some frame tubes and some sections of flooring fabricated and reinstalled.

Al -you have said in the past that you could not know that a Nobel would take the path that you pointed it in.  Now you have added a seemingly prejudicial estimation of its reliability.  I have  not noticed you saying any such thing about your beloved Messerschmitts that share the same power train and more primitive steering.  The Nobel has a completely unique and well engineered appearing rack.  I will admit that stabilizing the periphery of the rack with a simple link to the floorboard helps stiffen the rack aginst counter rotating.  But this is quite simply achieved.  Perhaps your drive in a Nobel was in one where the rack housing ends had worn out to the point that you could skip a gear tooth  with a quick jab to the steering wheel.  Perhaps also your 8 vulcanized rubber controll bushings were deteriorated. My blue and white one will skip the top of a rack tooth only upon attempting full lock while the wheels are not rotating.  But I am reasonably sure that bushing the ends of the rack will solve that.  At any rate even with one dead shock, no stabilizer, and likely 30 year old controll bushings, my red and white tracks quite predictably and well.  

You also appear to be calling both the Nobel and the AC ugly.  I think it more fair to consider the Nobel to be a futuristic micro design of the "Atomic Age".  
A time when it was common to imagine that we might be commuting in flying cars in another 20 years- and indeed I have been asked on more than one occasion if my Nobel is such with the wings not attached!  I see its styling as somewhere between the Jetsons, a seal pup, and a miniature submarine.  How utterly entertaining and by all but the most prejudiced eye- at least a cute face on a uniquely streamlined body.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:50:07 PM by steven mandell »

Big Al

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 06:42:05 PM »
  Oh you do me honour by reading far to much into some flippant comments.

  What you go on to say is true. I cannot say the Invacar is pretty but it is an invalid carriage, which seems to be an excuse for the British to create all sorts of misshapen objects that look like anything other than a normal car. Make of that what you will but it almost looks like a case of marking out those who obtain releaf from the State as a sort of payback for being disabled. Certainly makes an easy target for rejection on several levels.

  The Nobel, and chums, is pleasing to the eye but like Reggie Perrin (TV character aka Walter Mitty) I get the image of a Dolphin going backwards when ever I see one. You have to remember I am not a normal person, physically so a trike with anything from 18 to 22 stones in the driving position is on a test for its performance under unusual load conditions. The Berkeleys failed for instance. The Nobel also, in this one cars case, with Sachs and good speed. The heinkel powered one I had was much more predictable but not as fast till you got to hills which it could climb well. Reliability, couple of own goals here. Like getting at the Sachs points, brakes worse than Schmitts.

  Messerschmitt steering, hard not to like for the simplicity. 8 cheap bushes to replace, possibly a couple of kingpins. Job done. Central seating so no weight off centre to upset the geometry that can be adjusted to suit the drivers load. What is not to like other than the concept which is not to everyone's taste to drive?

  Suffice it to say I do not share your appreciation of the Nobel steering design I fear. It is over complicated and has poor leverage on the central steering link, which could have been dispensed with by alternate design. Heinkel made such a simple system, its light and its adjustable. If I were making a composite car I think I would be looking at that to go in it unless it were a tandam, in which case it would need to be geared up which might loose the lightness of touch.
  Worse I was suggesting after crashing your allegedly ill mannered Nobel, invaliding yourself, you would be forced by our State to drive an Invacar. This will clearly be beyond the pale for our Fulda buddies to contemplate, so do not do it. Mind you the steering on AC is no work of genius, especially with the wheel studs falling of the hub carrier!

  No for ugly I still offer the Larmar, which is chain steered, aaargh! Not so much styling by Jetson as Jettisoned.

  Peel Trident / Astronut, with Oscar. Got to be hasn't it? Jetsons as well. I can see why you would want one.
  Thoughts, hovercraft Trident with wheels as well. Off over the water Jetson style, yet directionally able for road use.

  Oh and enjoy the Nobel of course. Nothing they like better than use plus lots of smiles on faces save the guy who is to bad a driver to overtake.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 06:52:57 PM »
Out of the three microcars I have owned and driven for a reasonable length of time, these being a Schmitt, Isetta and a Nobel I can honestly say that the Nobel held the best straight line of the three. Make of that what you will.
As I have just spent the last few months on and off rebuilding Nobel steering its fresh in my mind and I kind of like the simplicity but the link that joins the rack to the inside steering arm is not the work of an engineer! Re the sachs engine, fine in a schmitt but the extra weight of a Nobel wears everything out faster especially the gears. My two penneth!

richard

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 08:08:13 PM »
i will give you the benefit of my three ha'pence when i've thought it out - and the red wine has worn off :P
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

Big Al

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 08:55:28 PM »
Out of the three microcars I have owned and driven for a reasonable length of time, these being a Schmitt, Isetta and a Nobel I can honestly say that the Nobel held the best straight line of the three. Make of that what you will.
As I have just spent the last few months on and off rebuilding Nobel steering its fresh in my mind and I kind of like the simplicity but the link that joins the rack to the inside steering arm is not the work of an engineer! Re the sachs engine, fine in a schmitt but the extra weight of a Nobel wears everything out faster especially the gears. My two penneth!

The wheelbase of the Nobel is the longest? It has a pretty ridged rear mounting for the suspension. The Schmitt is very sensitive to set up and tyres. No I cannot say that as a Nobel might be and I have not tried. The Isetta has a lot of links in its steering and a short wheelbase. I always felt its kingpins were in the wrong place so as to caster steer well. Then that could be a product of a worn set up too. One thing I will confirm worn steering on a Schmitt is very unpleasant! Maybe the others can cope better and therefore tend to be ignored. Ultimately you do need to compare like with like. In worn condition the Schmitt is worst but I would counter by saying it is the cheapest to resolve.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Jonathan Poll

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 10:42:21 PM »
Out of the three microcars I have owned and driven for a reasonable length of time, these being a Schmitt, Isetta and a Nobel I can honestly say that the Nobel held the best straight line of the three. Make of that what you will.
As I have just spent the last few months on and off rebuilding Nobel steering its fresh in my mind and I kind of like the simplicity but the link that joins the rack to the inside steering arm is not the work of an engineer! Re the sachs engine, fine in a schmitt but the extra weight of a Nobel wears everything out faster especially the gears. My two penneth!

Didnt you forget the Inters?

I find the schmitts easier to handle than the Nobel (apart from the '55 schmitt we found, it drives like **** !).
I like the Nobel steering, but the car is too bouncy, suspension is too soft.
I also found the clutch on the Nobel hard to pull off, a lot easier on the Schmitt!
Cars: Messerschmitt KR200, Nobel 200
Mopeds:
- Peugeot BB3SP, BB3T, BB3 "BITZA", BB VT, BB104,  TSA, Bima Luxe,
- Motobecane: 50V, M7 SL, 51 Club, EV50
- Other mopeds: Malaguti Superquattro, Solex 2200, Puch Monza, Puch Maxi

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 11:42:36 PM »
Yep, the Nobel wheelbase is longest and it also has those two tie rods from the chassis to the chaincase that prevent the engine/chaincase which in effect makes up the swing arm moving from side to side, looks Heath Robinson but appears to work! I guess thats why they drive quite straight. The Isetta is the shortest wheel base and as you said has a fussy steering linkage and a "steering box" its going to be prone to wandering, the four wheeler I guess would be better that the three wheeler. I often wondered if it was the fact that the schmitt transmission is fluid in rubber that makes it wag its tail , maybe the Nobel tie rod set up is not so daft!

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 09:40:50 AM »
Didnt you forget the Inters?

I find the schmitts easier to handle than the Nobel (apart from the '55 schmitt we found, it drives like **** !).
I like the Nobel steering, but the car is too bouncy, suspension is too soft.
I also found the clutch on the Nobel hard to pull off, a lot easier on the Schmitt!
[/quote]

OH yes, the Inters, my current one is not registered so I have only driven it up and down a private lane a few times but the Bruce Weiner one which incidentally came from big Al I did use for about a year. Locally on short runs it was good, the suspension was excellent and cornering was very stable, it felt more sure footed than a Schmitt but when I drove it at any speed on the highways the back would twitch from side to side, I was a little green at the time and was running it on scooter tyres! Before I got a chance to sort this it was blagged by BW. Inter steering consists of an excellent rack and pinion unit under the car with a rod to each wheel which is as good as a modern car but what happens before that is the crazy bit, the end of the steering column is linked to this rack by a bicycle chain crossed over in a figure of eight! There is always a little play in the steering due to the chain, its adjustable but if you tighten it to remove the play it gets notchy, mad but characterful!

steven mandell

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 05:37:22 PM »
Does anybody know if original Peel Trident steering has similar characteristics?
Is there any informed consensus as to what type of steering mechanics will transmit the most accurate input to the front wheels while maintaining a smooth and progressively linear feel and effect?
Would the recommendation that I am requesting still be fully applicable if someone (of course that could only be myself at this moment) were to figure out a way to design the front suspension so that it would keep the wheels more nearly perpendicular to the road surface with wheel travel around corners?
This, bearing in mind, of course that the front end of Peels are designed with swing arm suspensions that create tremendous camber change during vertical height excursion caused by changing weight loads and reactions to bumps, dips, and cornering loads.

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2012, 12:36:06 PM »
Just regressing to Nobel steering, I dismantled my rack and pinion yesturday because play was present and it turns out that they are adjustable. There are a pair of bronze bushes that hold the pinion in place, the holes that the pinion rotates in are off centre so that when the bushes are turned it brings the pinion closer to the rack thus taking up slack. Simple but effective. 

Jonathan Poll

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2012, 01:55:02 PM »
Just regressing to Nobel steering, I dismantled my rack and pinion yesturday because play was present and it turns out that they are adjustable. There are a pair of bronze bushes that hold the pinion in place, the holes that the pinion rotates in are off centre so that when the bushes are turned it brings the pinion closer to the rack thus taking up slack. Simple but effective. 

Thats why there off centre! Havent really checked my rack, but one of the spare ones is already sandblasted, I'll check if there are any differences to mine. If mine is different, I'll keep mine.

Cars: Messerschmitt KR200, Nobel 200
Mopeds:
- Peugeot BB3SP, BB3T, BB3 "BITZA", BB VT, BB104,  TSA, Bima Luxe,
- Motobecane: 50V, M7 SL, 51 Club, EV50
- Other mopeds: Malaguti Superquattro, Solex 2200, Puch Monza, Puch Maxi

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2012, 03:38:51 PM »
Durrrrr! I know thats why I mentioned it! ::)

Big Al

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2012, 08:54:08 AM »
Just regressing to Nobel steering, I dismantled my rack and pinion yesturday because play was present and it turns out that they are adjustable. There are a pair of bronze bushes that hold the pinion in place, the holes that the pinion rotates in are off centre so that when the bushes are turned it brings the pinion closer to the rack thus taking up slack. Simple but effective.  

Heinkel uses two rubber bushings on an eccentric lockable ali insert to take up the play on the rack. Effectively the steering rack assembly is 9 parts from rotation of the column to the rack silent bloc mounting (note hole in the floor for access to the special shouldered bolt for this, now often missing on restored cars - much scratching of head and amusement of old hands) beyond which there is a link to the suspension casting. Both Right and Left handed are available. The rack extends on full lock to quite a degree and I do not now if it would fit under such as a Trident.
Given the space under a Trident it is not easy to see how to fit a more sophisticated suspension to control the camber angles. The hub carrier is small so linking another top link? in would be tricky. The play would not suit a steering system much more complex than that the car has now. Indeed if supple suspension where to be created for the car I would tend to go for a nice little chassis and use the bodyshell unstressed on top. That puts the weight up taking you away from smaller engines but a Vespa 200 unit would cope fine. The bonus would be a rigid engine mounting for the more powerful unit. Moves miles away from it being a Peel Trident in concept but maybe that does not matter in this project.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 09:09:58 AM by Big Al »
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

steven mandell

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2012, 11:54:21 AM »
I was hoping to suck in the Big Al brain on this challenge to improve the suspension and steering dynamics of a Peel Trident, and am gratefull to have at least initially succeeded.
Thanks  to Bob Purton for pointing out what should have been obvious to me re the rotational positioning of the minimally eccentric upper and lower bronze bushes on the Nobel steering pinion mountings.  Until I read this, I hadn't  realized that such eccentricity was intentional, and had therefore adjusted my pinion to rack play as something more akin to a trial and error process based on my mistaken interpretation that I was hitting "lucky spots" in the alignment of the locating bushes.  I had also noted that the whole mechanism would bind if the top and bottom bushes were not rotated similarly.  Too bad this information, or Bob's insight wasn't published earlier as it would have saved a lot of head scratching and worrying time.  I am also now hopefull that my Blue and white Nobel's pinion gear  that could skip over the top of a rack tooth when full lock was applied whilst the road wheels were not rotating, will not need to have the ends of the rack casting bored and bushed to eliminate this effect!

And a big thanks to Big Al for allowing his big brain to get sucked into my somewhat obsessional need to improve the Peel Trident's suspension and steering.
Andy had mentioned that the Hienkel unit was a good fit for these cars.  But I still have not gotten a good close up look on either this unit or the far more rare original Peel steering gear with off set chain and stock steering linkages.  About a year ago somebody told me that they were having someone in the States make up new replacements for the original Peel steering gear/ chain boxes.  I was told that I would be put on the list so as I would be able to purchase one when they became available- but have heard nothing about it since then.
Without visual reference models, I am working in the dark so to speak, so I am not yet enabled to make any educated decisions as to which gear and set up to persue.  Same goes for the hub carriers and brakes, although I see the practicality of picking a smallish ATV unit that was designed to accommodate a double wishbone suspension to likely be the course of least resistance.
In consideration of my intention to limit the tendency to roll by limiting travel of the front suspension- I am shooting for a fairly sophisticated but stiffer front suspension.  Merely being able to mock up an upper link has required the use of those accordion style copper water pipes used to plumb in a hot water heater.  So if I succeed in this most unlikely aspect of my quest, it will undoubtedly resemble something that would make Rube Goldberg proud.

No need for a separate, weight adding chassis, as Andy kindly over engineered the corrugations in his casting of my body shell's parcel shelf to adequately cope with the bigger Vespa's additional weight and power.
.

Bob Purton

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Re: Lansing Bagnall prototype microcar
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 07:39:10 PM »
For what its worth I replaced the bushes on my Nobel rack and pinion today and can report that it did take up about two thirds of the free play, I guess the remaining play is due to the rack itself being a little worn or them being made like it from the start. Anyway, a worth while exercise.