Antikythera Mechanism...Bob Purton

[marcus]

Off Topic Alert!

Sorry about this off-topic thread but on BBC 4 last night there was a programme about this incredible Ancient Greek mechanism, described as the first known computer. If it is repeated or available on iplayer it is HIGHLY recommended. Amazing detective work over 100 years since it was discovered, and all manner of technology, analysis, and skills to figure it out. Incredible.

[Barry]

I saw it the other day Bob.
I thought of you.
An absolutely fantastic program - thoroughly recommended.

[marcus]

Yup, I too thought of Bob when I saw it, glad someone else saw it. I was amazed at how much the ancient Greeks understood about the orbits of the Moon and Planets, and then managed to make a gearbox which replicates perfectly not only the elliptical orbit of the Moon but also the way the whole orbit rotates once every nine years, truly staggering!

[marcus]

Here's the iplayer link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01hlkcq/The_TwoThousandYearOld_Computer/

[Big Al]

Knowledge and civilisation is ever at risk of idiocy. It is clear that things learned and achieved in history have been forgotten. Not helped by the habit of targeting the intelligent and burning books. A favoured activity of invaders and fundamentally perverted belief systems often called a religion. I do not promote Atlantis etc but there is sufficient evidence that there was a fall prior to recorded history. Certain elements of knowledge were in reverse as history became recorded using the surviving bits coming down to us. What was lost in Egyptian libraries, South America etc.

There is absolutely no reason why this cannot happen again. Most people do not know enough to survive in the developed world without it and the undeveloped world know how to survive but do not hold much of the knowledge. Just look at our reliance on computers to drive anywhere after 25 years! Maps are not on the syllabus now apparently.

Part of understanding the odd technical instruments and artefacts that do come down to us is to realise that the people who made them were at least equal to our best brains but that they thought differently. Applying our science and priorities will often give the wrong answer. All the more annoying, then, that many of these important finds are hidden away for folk with agendas to look at and 'prove' a solution as 'fact'. Much of this is pure speculation and, worse, rubbish.

It would be interesting to see an accurate reproduction of this instrument, as if it is old enough it will date itself! MIght not fit in with the 'facts' though. Not interested in what it was found with. That is a 'more than' signal, not a date. Pillocks.

[Barry]

So how is progress on the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
I heard that some sections contradict our current understanding of not just Christianity but also other religions.
Too controversial for general release to the public........................

[marcus]

Watch thow Al. you will see genius Michael Wright's reconstruction of it. He figured out about 90% of it, but did not get the mechanism which replicates the Moon's orbit, which is an ellipse, and the ellipse itself rotates every 9 years...they made a mechanism to replicate that...incredible!

[Big Al]

And it is that which would date the mechanism easiest as that is measurably changing over time. If the mechanism is reasonably accurate and actually rather old it will throw up an error. Archaeology will call it an error, of course, as it will not agree with a later observation at a date they will have set. Unlike science the preordained theories are more reliable evidence than what is actually found, though science is falling into the same trap now with Big Bangs etc. See Sphinx dated by a cartouche of a Pharaoh found between its paws. That means Stonehenge is not pre war as I found a Smartie tube next to one of the stones and Smarties did not exist pre war. Case solved! What utter tosh.

If it is in fact very old it might even have evidence of the effect of a heavily glaciated Earth pre deluge theorists. That would be very interesting, not least if its orientation is 'wrong'. There is good evidence that a pre historic mapping system might have been used based on 60 units. Actually this makes a lot of sense and I will leave you to wonder why the full zodiac, not the standard fortune telling one, has 60 positions each with a symbol, many vary well known but of forgotten origin. There are 360 degrees in a circle, 60 times 6. This older system is still there behind our modern one.

Meanwhile we can all ignore the idea that this ship might have been carrying an old antique as part of its cargo on the basis that antiques were not invented. A clinching argument, there, then. I wonder if there is a reason why the easiest bit to date the mechanism is missing.......

[Bob Purton]

So how is progress on the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
I heard that some sections contradict our current understanding of not just Christianity but also other religions.
Too controversial for general release to the public........................

"I heard that...."  Always dangerous!!

Barry, you appear to be a victim of a popular conspiracy theory.  Photographic copies of all the scrolls were made available to scholars world wide in 1991/92.
The scrolls contained a variety of documents, many scriptural, some religious, many non religious, gnostic writings, directions to hidden treasure, all sorts!  One of the interesting things learned was via a scroll of Isaiah which dated to before the time of Christ and a good one thousand years older the the oldest medieval copy in existence in the 1940's . Scholars expected the medieval one to be corrupted through a thousand years of copying but to the shock of all the text was essentially uncorrupted, the only variations being spelling etc.   Its a pet subject of mine but I will stop there as this is a microcar forum!!!!

[Barry]

I am sure we could start a new topic on the Dead Sea Scrolls Bob.
(or just carry on here)
I would love to know more and perhaps other microcar enthusiasts would not mind.
Where not some of the scrolls from the time of Christ and had references to Jesus?

[Bob Purton]

I am sure we could start a new topic on the Dead Sea Scrolls Bob.
(or just carry on here)
I would love to know more and perhaps other microcar enthusiasts would not mind.
Where not some of the scrolls from the time of Christ and had references to Jesus?

Again all part of a conspiracy theory, there is one line that one scholar is trying to associate with a verse in the gospel of Mark but that is the only alleged association with the Christian Greek scriptures. No mention of Christ as you would expect if this is a collection of writings by an Essenian Jewish sect . There are references to Christ Jesus by contemporary secular historians, Flavius Josephus, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, Suetonius etc etc but not in the dead sea scroll as I understand it. The big cover up theory may have its roots in the fact that the scrolls include a Fairly large proportion of apocryphal writings, that is Hebrew books that are not part of the bible cannon or group of books, some of which may tell a bible story differently to the canonical books.These were well known  before the discovery of the scrolls but for some who were ignorant of the extent of these gave reason to kick up all sorts of sensational theories, and like the De Vinci code people started taking it seriously!! They also sold news papers! Have a look at the synopsis of the dead sea scrolls on wikipedia, its only as good as the person who posted it, some of it is just the opinion of the writer but gives a fairly balance overall picture. Like Al has been saying, things like this are open to the interpretation of the "experts" , opinions will vary according to preconceived ideas

[marcus]

The sad fact about it all is that ancient wisdom was passed down and improved over the years, with the Babylonians and then the ancient Greeks developing a profound understanding of the visible solar system, and a mechanism to demonstrate and predict its behaviour, but then Christianity and Islam decided to destroy and suppress an enormous amount of ancient wisdom and scientific understanding because it did not tally with their idea of how things "should" be.

[marcus]

I know this thread is off topic, but the programme was so interesting, and I know plenty of people here are interested in mechanical matters, and this programme is well worth seeing.

[richard]

weird !! just had a bank holiday water burst . aaaaaargh my neighbour is a grumpy unhelpfull bloke - but also a plumber ! he came over was really great and i can't remember it now , he started talking of this amazing programme - that is the first one that marcus kicked off . amazing coincidence praps i had better watch it then .

note i take more note of my grumpy neighbours recommendations  than you lot 

[Bob Purton]

The sad fact about it all is that ancient wisdom was passed down and improved over the years, with the Babylonians and then the ancient Greeks developing a profound understanding of the visible solar system, and a mechanism to demonstrate and predict its behaviour, but then Christianity and Islam decided to destroy and suppress an enormous amount of ancient wisdom and scientific understanding because it did not tally with their idea of how things "should" be.

Sorry to disagree again Marcus, but another sweeping statement that people repeat over like Isetta's not having reverse gear. [heard it on telly, must be true]  Early Islamic schools excelled in teaching astronomy, who do you think developed the astrolabe? Papal Christendom on the other hand is guilty as charged though and all so completely unnecessary! If a  passage of scripture say the sun moves across the sky, from the earthy observer and writers perspective he writes what he sees. If a scientist pops up and proves that in actual fact what is happening is that the earth is moving around the sun, why make a fuss, its no contradiction, just two observations from different perspectives, both are true. Not good enough for the pontiffs of the past though, lets start an inquisition over it and alienate everyone! Its all out of fear of losing control of the people.
I agree, there is no reason to believe that prehistory man was any less intelligent than modern men, they may have even been more so!  All this and I haven't even watched the programme yet!!   That's it, I'm off my soap box and am saying no more.   Micocar question, what steering box does a Bond 875 three wheeler use? Just a bit of trivia I learned at the Museum rally. Of course the answer provided may not be true, just a conspiracy theory!!