The Purpose of the Register of Unusual Microcars (RUM CARS)

[Jonathan Poll]

Also, it's thanks to the register (I think!) that my dad found out his old Peel P50 (CKH 728B, currently in Lane museum) was a replica. The seller told my dad it was a replica. He was wrong!

Am I assuming correctly that the seller told your Dad that it wasN'T a replica?  I have had a peek under its skirts, and it looked like a new Vespa 200 engine in an old chassis to me.

Yep, Wasn't !

I think it had original type engine at the time, must have been changed. Chassis was a replica.

[richard]

johnathan i have tried reading your original item on the Peel but cannot make sense of it . is it or isn't it a replica . 

[Jonathan Poll]

johnathan i have tried reading your original item on the Peel but cannot make sense of it . is it or isn't it a replica . 

The car was a replica

[steven mandell]

Funny thing was that it was displayed alongside an announced Andy Carter replica as a genuine car at the First World Micro Car Meet in Crystal Lake, Illinois in 2010- and nobody questioned its authenticity.   I remembered it having a new Vespa 200 cc motor in it because I remember asking the owner how much the engine cost, as I am looking to do same for mine.
Just goes to show that it is difficult to tell new fiberglass from old, as it doesn't rust or develop any sort of patina.
The red gel coat color on my new chassis could pass as an original nearly 50 year old body if I decided to leave it bare. but this is one car that I think looks better in "as new" condition.
After all who expects to see a toned down "terrestrial flying saucer"?

[Jonathan Poll]

Funny thing was that it was displayed alongside an announced Andy Carter replica as a genuine car at the First World Micro Car Meet in Crystal Lake, Illinois in 2010- and nobody questioned its authenticity.   I remembered it having a new Vespa 200 cc motor in it because I remember asking the owner how much the engine cost, as I am looking to do same for mine.
Just goes to show that it is difficult to tell new fiberglass from old, as it doesn't rust or develop any sort of patina.
The red gel coat color on my new chassis could pass as an original nearly 50 year old body if I decided to leave it bare. but this is one car that I think looks better in "as new" condition.
After all who expects to see a toned down "terrestrial flying saucer"?

Our one was made by Alan Evans (Bambycars), I think in the 80's.

If I'm right, the Lane museum don't really like saying its a replica

[Bob Purton]

And clearly neither did the scurrilous individuals who sold the cars to them! Maybe this subject should be curtailed before someone gets upset!

[Rob Dobie]

Why, Mr. Bond? It's been going on for years!

[Big Al]

Back to what RUM is for and taking up the scurrilous tangent.

Maybe the Register should create a Register of Known Fakes which it could publish on the website so that it will very much harder for folk to pass cars off as genuine when they are not. This can include split cars where the chassis forms one car, the body another and the engine a third. An old trick which was used to great effect with Bugatti and in common usage now. Of course one of those cars is entitled to the original ID, but which? Normally, I believe, the chassis wins.

No doubt this would cause a great deal of grumbling but it would be a public service and protect those cars left that have not been messed about to boot. For instance I have someone making persistent enquiries about my Scootacar because it has its original engine. It seems most do not. Collectors value such things. Not the best example but I do not wish to cast a stone and as far as I know I do not own a fake nor a replica at the moment so I cannot offer a current experience but if Nick can get conned then so can any of us. I can point to Messerschmitts I have created out of various parts bought in as extras, when enough parts are then collected together to form a kipper car, then through a six and win. These are non original cars but still fully Messerschmitt. To me a Messerschmitt like Black Bazzer which has always been whole, never tampered with, is very much more desirable than one of these bitsas, but if we did not have the bitsas there would be far fewer Messerschmitts about. So I do not know where you draw the line. That said there are clear attempts out there to make image of cars that either do not exist any longer, or worse, cloned from cars that do exist. It gets somewhat bizarre when the world population of a 'rare' car is greater than that original made by the factory. These fake cars, in some cases hidden among many freely admitted replicas, should be outed. I feel sorry for owners who might be left holding the baby but the situation is analogous to a stolen car. It is the risk you run buying stuff. Normally if you do your research you do not get caught out.

What think you?

[NickPoll]

The Peel I bought from Alan Tozer was described by him to me as an original P50. After I bought it I contacted Jean and she knew the car and knew it was a replice. She had also told Alan Tozer it was a fake. I tried to return the car and get my money back, but he refused.
Talking about authentic vehicles, we should be careful with Tg500's these days. Some years ago I bought a dismantled pile of parts from Tim Collins. Most parts were genuine,but from different Tg's and with a perfect replica monocoque.  I knew fully what I was buying and Tim was very honest. I  restored this and sold it for £18,000 to a chap in Germany called ( can't remember his name right now, I'll publish it if I remember )stating it was a replica, hence the low price. The car looked excellent and it would have been very hard to find a fault. He then immediately sold it to a doctor for a £10,000 profit, saying it was genuine. I know this is true, because the doctor took it to the German rally and the English Tiger bunch spoke with him. This all happened in about 1999.
If the monocoque is replica, then the car is a replica. I know my own car is genuine and so is Ferdi's. but I think that's it for rumcar readers. I may be wrong though, as a member in the North of UK might have recently purchased one, but that's for him to say.
                    Nick.

[Bob Purton]

"This can include split cars where the chassis forms one car, the body another and the engine a third. An old trick which was used to great effect with Bugatti and in common usage now. Of course one of those cars is entitled to the original ID, but which? Normally, I believe, the chassis wins. "

And I thought it was just the antiques trade that did that!!
A chair is missing from a rare and valuable dinning table and chairs set devaluing it considerably, the restorer knocks all the chairs apart make four legs and other parts up and reassemble them  mixing the new parts into all the other genuine chairs, it then looks just like genuine restoration of individual chairs over the sets life time, hey presto job done!  A clock repairer takes in an extremely rare and valuable clock for servicing over a period of years, each time he misleadingly says that one of the gears was too worn and had to replace it, he tucks away the original cogg which has nothing wrong with it, eventually the customers original clock movement has all new gears and the repairer puts together an eighteenth century clock movement worth a lot of money for himself, as I said, scurrilous!!

[Jonathan Poll]

"This can include split cars where the chassis forms one car, the body another and the engine a third. An old trick which was used to great effect with Bugatti and in common usage now. Of course one of those cars is entitled to the original ID, but which? Normally, I believe, the chassis wins. "

And I thought it was just the antiques trade that did that!!
A chair is missing from a rare and valuable dinning table and chairs set devaluing it considerably, the restorer knocks all the chairs apart make four legs and other parts up and reassemble them  mixing the new parts into all the other genuine chairs, it then looks just like genuine restoration of individual chairs over the sets life time, hey presto job done!  A clock repairer takes in an extremely rare and valuable clock for servicing over a period of years, each time he misleadingly says that one of the gears was too worn and had to replace it, he tucks away the original cogg which has nothing wrong with it, eventually the customers original clock movement has all new gears and the repairer puts together an eighteenth century clock movement worth a lot of money for himself, as I said, scurrilous!!

Like some Bugatti dealers. They would say "your gearbox is wrn. If you want, we have a brand new one available". Say that about different parts, and they end up with a new original car!

[john Meadows]

A good few years ago I offered a detailed certificate of Authenticity to owners of Friskys , which confirmed that theirs was a genuine car (based upon my records of then 20 years ) There was no charge the object being to give that car a status (an advantage when selling, and reassuring for the buyer) and identify  “non original cars”. No one was interested!
Regarding the purpose of the Rumcar register, I remember it starting out catering for cars not served by their own club/register since then its base has grown considerably covering the whole spectrum of Microcars with a considerable information and history made available. However I think it is unrealistic to expect it to act as a comprehensive information center for people restoring their cars.
 I know from 30 years of running the Frisky Register, with the simple aim of ensuring the survival of remaining Friskys, the effort, time and devotion it takes. To provide a similar service from one central source would be an enormous task.
 I think Jean has got it right, by keeping records of those cars not covered by other single make registers she helps ensure their survival, information on the cars being of more importance than their owners. Trying to keep track of cars let alone their owners is a job and a half!
To that end my personal preference would be not to produce a “public list” of existing car details, too much info for those wishing to take advantage.
Finally I know Jean and her band of merry men (and women) don’t want praise but from my point of view they do a Bl......y good job and I thank them for it.
John

[blob]

To that end my personal preference would be not to produce a “public list” of existing car details, too much info for those wishing to take advantage.

Rumcars is basically a hub outside of the single car clubs, Jeans open days and volunteering sessions put names to faces for those who've entered the banter on the forum. Whereby the usually trading of information and discussions take place. Though unlike certain clubs, you do not need a microcar to join and there is no fee, thus encouraging a wider variety of enthusiast to pool resources. The only addition I'd like to see would be a page of known vehicles, I don't care who owns them, what country there in or how much their worth etc.. Simply Frisky X, Trojan Y and Peel ?

[john Meadows]

Hi Mike
Having got your list of every microcar in existance
Hopefully with owner and number plate removed for security
What would you do with it??

John

[blob]

Simple, I'd like RUMCARS to have a visual resemblance to a register. I'm not talking about the definitive list of micros, just the ones documented here. The easiest way to achieve this other than having details of ownership on display, is to list numbers of surviving vehicles and possibly the country they now reside, (as this is a source of constant debate), one could highlight a new car on the list every month, a bit like a poll. There may even be an increase of owners willing to come forward if the register is seen to be constantly updated.


It's interesting, case in point, there are more now Inters then previously thought. Bruce Weiner documented numbers built/surviving, there was a recent enquiry on the forum regarding numbers of Nobel Vicky's in existence, with a poll patterns emerge, which cars survived in greater numbers, those that were unsuccessful and stored since new / or brilliant but expensive designs, the applications are endless.