copyright ?

[richard]

can jim tell us ? are any of us at liberty to post an old pic on the forum that we have copied from an old mag or book ? does anyone know for sure ? i have about 20 odd black and white such pics that i was looking forward to posting gradually over the next while - just for interesting chat

[Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)]

There is no definite yes or no answer to this. It depends on when and where the material was published and for what purpose and also where in the world you're looking at it.  At the moment, there is no way to prevent any image, sound, film or text that appears anywhere on the web from being copied and reproduced. What you need to consider is that, if you post anything, you personally will be liable if someone decides to sue or invoice you for its use.

In practice, if you publish a few pictures from a magazine or an article, it is very unlikely that anyone will take exception as long as you very clearly credit where you got it from and you or Rumcars aren't trying to profit financially from it. It is good etiquette to contact the originator of the work to try and obtain permission beforehand, but as much of the stuff we're interested in is from obscure or long extinct sources, you'll probably end up chasing your tail. Regardless, whatever the published origin, give it the credit it deserves.

In regard to more current material, in my experience, informally for a venue like our forum, editors are usually happy for you to post the material. It gives them more publicity which in turn might result in a few more sales. However, formally they'll have to quote corporate policy, which is likely to say yes of course you may reproduce the article on your website, here is our bill for £XXXs. If in doubt, tell people where they can buy a copy of this great article you've seen.

Treat other peoples work with the same respect, care, due credit and consideration, you'd expect for your own work and hopefully everyone will benefit.

[Big Al]

That about sums it up. The law is really only there to protect those who can afford it in the main. Diplomatic management and credited non profit based usage mean there is little reason for most folk to get upset.
Webwide, though, there is a problem. The ease of copying and posting information internationally has broken down the traditional walls to protect valuable data just as freely available data. As of now there is no real answer to this save not putting out info where it can be copied. Very tricky if your income is based on selling information like art, music etc. We probably live in one of those special times between a new lifestyle and the laws to control it. This in someways makes up for the other problems in the world.

[richard]

specifically in our context on the forum i wanted to post a few b/w photos ,20 odd were from a magazine article from 25 years ago . would these photo's have been from that magazines publishing group ? is that why there is no credit given . the other pics i would have liked to copy would be from that great work The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars 1885 - 1968 , Ebury Press Edited by G.N. Georgano with 22 other contributors including that great micro enthusiast Mike Worthington-Williams . I think that 2 of these gentlemen are still possibly readers of Rum , or at least in touch . This book has been referred to in the past on this forum . I do hope i could get permission to scan a few prints  i believe it to be the best volume on the subject and was probably updated later. My 1968 copy having been my fathers bible. I will ask Chris about these contacts .

[Big Al]

Difficult to answer. Some will have passed out of date to have active copyright, others might have had it renewed. Again other will be free by default of the demise of the owner be that a person or a business. Many book illustrations will have attribution if not freely available when they published. Publishing does not give you a right to copyright, it is the creation of original material, thence by contract.  Most business choose to contractually take ownership of their employees ideas by default. So a Newspaper might not wright an item but because it was created under contract the reporter's rights pass to the employer. The same thing happens with inventions. So if you have a brilliant idea worth millions do not create it whilst employed or you risk its loss in part or total to an employer. All very complicated and finding owners can be a nightmare. In fact publishing it might be the easiest way of finding out!

[Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)]

specifically in our context on the forum i wanted to post a few b/w photos ,20 odd were from a magazine article from 25 years ago . would these photo's have been from that magazines publishing group ? is that why there is no credit given . the other pics i would have liked to copy would be from that great work The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars 1885 - 1968 , Ebury Press Edited by G.N. Georgano with 22 other contributors including that great micro enthusiast Mike Worthington-Williams . I think that 2 of these gentlemen are still possibly readers of Rum , or at least in touch . This book has been referred to in the past on this forum . I do hope i could get permission to scan a few prints  i believe it to be the best volume on the subject and was probably updated later. My 1968 copy having been my fathers bible. I will ask Chris about these contacts .

Magazines don't generally own the copyright to the images or the text, they usually pay the people who created the work in a predefined contract. That way the writer or photographer will get paid when his article first appears, but (depending on the contract) not when the publisher allows someone else to do a reprint (e.g. The Brooklands Road Test Series). In magazines writers usually get a credit, but photographers don't as there isn't room. Old photographs are often sourced from image libraries such as http://www.magnumphotos.com/ or http://www.gettyimages.co.uk

In the same way with books like Georgano's, the photographs don't generally belong to the author, they or the publisher will have sorted out payment and/or credit but there will generally be an acknowledgement to the photographer somewhere - often on a separate page at the back. Whether the photographer gets any payment will depend on how the photographs were sourced. Compilations like The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars will need lots of photos of really obscure cars where it is often impossible to trace the photographer or who now owns the rights, again what they will do is credit the source, that is usually enough for obscurities and where the print run of the book isn't likely to be in the millions.

[Mark Green]

I tried to print a picture at the local drug store and was told here in the States that the copyright is until 50 years after the photographers passing.

[Big Al]

Interesting that the right exists after death. That requires that someone be responsible for managing the images. If there is not anyone I assume it is free for someone to scoop the pool if they are switched on.

I wish I had the copyright on copyright! Another opportunity missed.

[Jim Janecek]

Interesting that the right exists after death. That requires that someone be responsible for managing the images.

This really only gets used by estates of people that have created works that provide a significant income on a regular basis.
Or if a corporation has purchased the copyrights from the original holder, they would have a vested interest as well.

Many DISNEY characters such as Mickey Mouse would now be in the public domain, but heavy lobbying changed the laws (at least in the USA) to keep extending the copyright protection.
Ironic since many of DISNEY's films were based on stories that were in the Public Domain. (Snow White, etc)

[Chris Thomas]

Dear Richard

Just been catching up with all that has been going on while I have been away hence not replying sooner.

My experience with copywrite is that with magazine articles the words belong to the writer and the page layout belongs to the publication. So if I write an article and a magazine publishes it. I can then at a later date provide the same text to another publication or web based service and there is no comeback. However if I were to scan the magazine page and post it on a web site I would be contravening copyright. However in my experience a month or two after the magazine has been published they will willingly give permission for an article to be reproduced in their magazine format as it is publicity for their publication.

With regard to photographs I have always tried to use all my own images or use images supplied to me by the writer of the article. Most web images are low resolution and therefore not very good when printed in a full colour magazine. I do sometimes forget to acknowledge where some images have come from, and I should be more careful about that in future.  I hope this helps you with your quest.

Chris Thomas
Rumcar News

[richard]

nice to hear from you chris i gathered you must be away . the problem with our own images is that few of us are old enough to possess images taken when the cars were current . a modern photograph is of little historical interest as its not known how far from standard it varies . give me grainy b/w any day to a modern image .

[burford57]

I have written articles for various magazines over the years, including Tractor & Machinery, Horticultural Equipment Collector (I know, I should get out more!), Classic Van & Pick-up etc and always ask the editor if I want to submit an article to a different magazine.  I have always been given the all-clear and sometimes the only caveat is that I give credit to the the original publishing magazine for subsequent appearances.

Regards
Nick D.