Author Topic: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop  (Read 6417 times)

steven mandell

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Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« on: March 01, 2014, 04:52:36 PM »
Getting ready to finally drop the engine out of my Trojan, as both servicing the Dynastart, and checking the valve timing needs doing.
Will the flywheel puller from my Messer engine Nobel suffice here?
Do I need any other special tools for these jobs?
Anyone got the cam timing specs?
My car came with an visibly verifiable rebuilt motor, but the rebuilder/ installer obviously was not what one would call professionally familiar with these power plants.
I say this because the wires going to the regulator box were arranged incorrectly, with the second widest wire having the insulation burned off right down to where the mass of the engine provided an effective heat sink,
and the carburetor sprays fuel out its venturi when idling, which it seems to want to do at a higher speed than one would assume typical for a single cylinder four stroke engine.
In case you are wondering, with Al's expert guidance, I have already corrected the wiring, with the result that the engine spins over well about half the time that I've energized the staring circuit.
The other half of the time it stalls before the starter cuts in, and will make either a wire under the dash/ a wire from the regulator to the dynastart get alarmingly hot very quickly.  Most disconcerting, and to be avoided at all costs, so many starting attempts are aborted in the first half second or so to avoid letting the smoke out of the electrical system.  For as we know the system runs on smoke, for if you allow it to escape it doesn't work anymore.
Curiously, one of my Nobels has a dependable approximate 3/4 second delay before it overcomes the resistance of the compression stroke, but then spins freely w/o any sign of letting the smoke out first.

Al also guided me through several needle height adjustments, and fine tuning of the carburetor, and I adjusted the valve clearances, but still get the gas spray out the carb's air inlet where the air filter should be fitted. 

Big Al

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 02:23:55 PM »
The initial timing and data is in the manual. Since we have established the engine re-builder has botched the job, I would be looking at rebuilding the unit correctly. If its a good unit that will be easy. If its duff it will not work properly anyway. If the timing is that far off, it is as likely the timing transfer gear is not in place correctly and a tooth or two out. That is as likely as a wrong cam. However the advance and retard must be working efficiently and that has yet to be serviced. That hides the dynostart bolt so is an early removal. All these things are commonly not done properly.

The dynostart puller will fit the thread, but if you need a spacer or not will depend on which version of the extractor tool you have. I tend to undo the bolt in a Heinkel, remove the thick retaining washer and re insert the nut with a collar spacer. This allows the puller to work well and protects the end of the crank. However, if Mr Bodge has been, check the dynostart bolt is high tensile steel not a mild cheese replacement, as it will not like the potential pressure if its a stiffy. Given this dynostart is a crapper, my guess is it will nigh on fall off.

For the dynostart you will need to isolate the three circuits, means tabs off brush holders. My prediction is the insulation is gone between charging and cut off circuits. Also check the coils are not loose as if the dynostarter has been running hot it melts the shellac on the stator and it all gets a bit whibbly. Days are numbered unrepaired. If your lucky that can happen and the unit be re insulated but it is a chancy business. There will be a reason why the wire has burned out and even if it is incorrect wiring the damage may now have been done inside the stator coils. They are repairable, but its easier finding another, unless you are into electrics or obstinate like me. I have swapped whole coils and soldered them in. If Malcolm Thomas can do it on a camp site with a gas cooker then I can do it at home!

You will want

potentially a dynostart holding tool, depending on which extractor you have and the thread on the armature.

Clutch holding tool - can be made out of a plate

Clutch compression tool and distance piece - depending on if it is a spring plate 3 plate or a diaphragm 4 plate plate design. The snap ring is a different size. You can make up a tool but it is quite time consuming.

The most important tool you should not need. The puller for the chaincase drive sprocket. Its a B*****d. However the is the patented Hitchcock way out out of this seeming unsolvable dilemma.

Two good big screwdrivers to pit in the splitter slots back to back to lever the case apart without rodgering the machined casing surfaces. .

In taking the engine apart do not forget the outer 10mm nut on the foot of the dynostarter cover, where the jacking tool fits. Many do and its two part dynostart casing time.


Meanwhile service the twist and go scooter engine to go in when you find that Mr Bodge has used trash to build the engine. I hope not bud.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

steven mandell

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 12:25:32 PM »
Thankyou for your extraordinarily detailed and comprehensive suggestions, obviously honed from your own vast experience.
It seems I would do well to have access to a manual, as I am primarily a visual learner.
How well does my custom made Messer/ Nobel flywheel puller pictured below fill the bill?
Do I really need the spacer and pressure plate pulling tool if the clutch seems to be working correctly?
Of course it is usually wise not to spend more than is required for a manual and tools for what should prove to be a one time job, however, my over riding consideration is that I need to get this done by the end of this week, and therefore cannot afford the time delay associated with having to wait to have anything to be delivered from overseas.
Is the manual available on line?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 12:29:49 PM by steven mandell »

Big Al

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 01:10:39 PM »
No manual on line that I know of as I think the Trojan Archive Trust own the rights. They sell them. But not in a week turn around.

If you do not need to go into the engine and the clutch is fine then it need not move. As soon as you want to split the cases, clutch needs to come off. Simples with tooling. Easy to damage something without but it can be done.

Your puller, without looking I do not recal which is which now. I think the deep one is the Sachs, which would suggest the Heinkel is the shallow fitted one. At least you might get away without a holding tool if the thread is OK.

As to a rebuild of potential probs in under a week, good luck. I would be looking at a month to get the thing apart, id stuff and resolve issues before a tune up including circuit and bumps. Then I am a slow worker.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

steven mandell

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 01:56:08 PM »
I mean to check for a bent valve, valve timing and ignition timing, as well as service the
Dynastart. 
My flywheel puller is designed for the Sachs engine in Messershmitts and Nobels, and has proven its usefulness on one of my Nobels already.  Do you know if it will suffice for this application?
Do the Hienkels head gaskets typically survive a zero mile head removal well?
Do you think that the valve timing can be checked and corrected w/o the manual for reference?
Same question for comprehensive analysis of the dynastart.
Is the dynastart sufficiently similar to other units with on line guidance availability?
Thanks

richard

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 04:34:52 PM »
sorry but headmaster here again . steven but if you insist on spelling HEINKEL wrong always you wont find much on the internet ever  ;)
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Big Al

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 05:16:33 PM »
I see no reason why the flywheel puller should not work.

Bent valve, unlikely but stranger things have happened. Head gasket reuse will depend on its age and type. The original was copper/asbestos sandwich, and crushed into place. I have reused those as there is a fair amount of give. The later composites, unlikely. I have to say that these engines have a history of blowing gaskets out. In part because some gaskets were not that good. Some heads are not flat from home botched repairs. It might be possible to modify to a chamfered ring or some such, but not in a week. Be aware that untreated unleaded British fuel eats valve seats on these.
Checking timing is about having accurate data.
The manual is not for the dynostart, a separate Siba manual is available and might be on the web. George Johnson did an excellent item on dynostart diagnostics in a Take Off. Might be on KaroScene. 'Tiz all this info as to why the few collect back issues. Trouble is I am only half way through the house and will not be unpacking any time soon. The dynostart is in principle the same as the single direction Villiers and shares specs with the Forward Reverse version, save clearly that entire unit is earthed. Be aware there are 5 differing dynostarts for Heinkel, which can get mixed up, or interchanged, of two makes! Four differing brush sets. Each has its points, advance/retard with cam. The camshaft has at least 5 types. There are two types of push rod. The 175 head does not fit the 200 head, despite that folk try it. So the opportunities for a muck up are pretty good. Having books sorts some of this out.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Stef

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 04:33:19 PM »
This may sound like a dumb question, or subjective to personal preference, however, what is the best oil for a Trojan 200?

The above info may also be useful for me as I have running issues.  It's oiling the plug in less than 45 seconds and stopping.  Just had a carb clean and tweak in set up as it was running rich.

Thanks

Rob Dobie

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 06:32:43 PM »
I have running issues

So have I. Mine is called osteoarthritis of the knees. :'(   Sorry,I'll go and crawl back to my hole in the ground.
Ain't got nuffink now except memories.

Big Al

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Re: Hienkel/ Trojan engine drop
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 09:49:22 PM »
Oh dear, oil. As far as I am concerned the best oil is the one the manual quotes SAE or ST, 30 or 40 as conditions demand.
 
Before we go down the blind ally of multigrades, I will point out that modern multigrade is made for cooler running shell bearing engines, and not splash fed roller bearings. Indeed the old oil is more akin to gear oil, for a reason. There will be those who will now say they have used multigrades for yonks and so on. When we all drove our cars the multigrade, long oil change, folk used to blow up at a far greater frequency than those who serviced and drove their cars correctly. They were also slower. But be swayed by what ever advice you choose to follow, especially if use is to be limited.

A worn Heinkel engine can move a lot of oil into the combustion system. Tuned and on ST30 it will burn a lot off, as ST30 is what predated two stroke oil.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs