Scootacar Mk1 - not idling

[skootaloon]

Hi,
I have started my Scootacar this evening and it starts fine on choke but will not idle. It will only re-start and run on choke. Suspecting blocked idle jet, carb was stripped and the jets were checked and were clear. Still no joy.
The questions:-
1. Does the engine have to warm up a little before pushing the choke in?
2. I see there is a ticker on the carb, do i need to use this when starting?

I have noticed an amount of thick 2 stroke oil underneath the car. It looks like it is weeping from the joint in the between crankcase halves. There is no gasket fitted here and I think the exploded drawing of the engine doesn't show one either. Is this a common problem with the Villiers 9E engine?

Any help on the above would be most welcome.

Cheers

Simon

[Peel replica, Steve Fisk]

I have no experience with this engine , but an engine on my vw campervan had an inlet manifold leak which stopped it from ticking over , a little trick is to spray easy start on the inlet manifold and if it revs up there's your problem , has to be cold engine and exhaust don't want to cause a fire !!!! But make sure you got a fire extinguisher close !!! 

[DaveMiller]

Hi, Simon.

Villiers engines often have their own personality:  what one engine wants can be different from others of the same model!

In general, though (and here my experience is with Villiers engines in Bonds):

- if the engine is completely cold, tickling the carb until a flow of fuel is (just) seen can help starting.
- if driving away, the choke can usually be pushed in almost straight away.
- the engine won't tick over on a closed throttle until thoroughly warm. (When cold, it'll "try" to tick over, and then stall - that's normal.)

[Bob Purton]

I had the same question about the crank case gasket some time ago. see link http://www.rumcars.org/forum/index.php?topic=3465.0

Re the testing of inlet leaks, using a quirt of WD40 will show up any leaks by altering the idle ,  easy start will do the same but could be dangerous..

If your 9e has been standing for a long time it may look like your idle jet is clear but it could still have some glazing in it reducing the flow.

[steven mandell]

Answering on theoretical rather than experiential grounds, I am thinking that if it is indeed two stroke oil, and not transmission oil (should be able to discern by color in many instances)- wherever the oil is leaking out, air could even more easily be leaking in.
This could explain the lean condition that you seem to be describing.

Alternatively blow some compressed air through that idle jet after spaying or soaking with carb cleaner, and after chasing out the orifice with a suitable diameter wire from a bristle brush.  I just completed doing so on my Badsy Bullet's 4 Mikuni carbs after peering down a couple of very tiny idle jet bores that actually were letting light through a translucent substrate that was not apparent on first blush. This seems to happen more readily with newer fuels that have been sitting for too long.  It seems more often these days that I see a double whammy effect of old new fuels on very small carburetor orifices.  This increased volatile content evaporates out much more quickly, clogging, or freezing internal cab parts, and the resulting fuels separation leaves a gummier residual of the fuel that doesn't seem to like being dragged through small orifices until the engine is fully warmed.

[skootaloon]

Thanks everyone for their very helpful comments. I am new to Scootacars so I am on a bit of a learning cycle. I have a few scoots with 2-stroke engines and they all behave a bit differently when starting.

Many thanks

Simon

[Big Al]

Sticky two stroke under the engine is indicative of a fuel leak over time from the fuel tap. The volatile components evaporate and you are left with the heavy elements in the form of an oil slick. More than likely the inside of the crankcase will look the same. It needs a good Italian tune up to burn off all this crude and allow the fuel mixture to gain a regular and harmonious charge. Then you can see about tuning the the engine. If it is full of crude it will smoke like a good 'un till its cleared. If this is the case check the tap to see if it is the sort that can be serviced or this will continue to occur.

[steven mandell]

YEAH!
The voice of our most micro experienced Super Hero is back!
How have you been you old salty dog- anything you can tell us that wouldn't compromise a vow of secrecy?
Once again you have put together some clues that us others have missed.  Thick 2 stroke oil deposits found below an engine in a car that does not provide for storage of this oil due to its not having a metered oil injection system, would have to have become accreted via the evaporation of its more volatile solvent (gasoline) as you suggested.
So am I correct in presuming that a gas shut off valve that leaks the gas- oil suspension through the Scootacar carburetor will then drip out of the carburetor, and along the crank case split until the weight of the accumulating drop exceeds the cohesive force of its surface tension resulting in a drip off the lowest portion of the engine?

My gas valves usually leak the fuel oil mix directly to the tarmac before it gets a chance to become directed to the carburetor, hence even with the fuel tap in the off position.

I presume the Italian tune up you speak of refers to one revving the heck out of the engine whilst engaged in (relatively) high speed driving, and by so doing will burn off similarly accreted oil deposits within the interior of the crankcase of the motor resulting in cleaner running, and hopefully a steadier idle also.

[Big Al]

Well thanks for the build up, but I am not that bright.

I am no expert on Villiers but the Bing carb has a predisposition to leak fuel over time. If only for the fact that the fuel in the float bowl evaporates. That drops the needle in the bowl to consume more petrol mix, if available. Any Bing owner knows that the cone on the valve can easily pick up some crude/deposits and get lodged open. High presto, with a leaking tap you have a flooded engine crank case. Now the Villiers carb may be immune to this situation. None the less sticky oil with two stroke in it suggests a dodgy tap and flooding. The Goggo actually has a pair of crankcase drain plugs for cleaning out the internal space! Such good little cars. The process as as you say.

Italian tune up is ideally driven but a static run up of reasonable revs is a neighbour annoying substitute. Something like a Villiers will clear itself of excess oil. Debate on effective oils continues and there is no doubt the some leave the internals near spotless in regular use. The older self mix or ST30 tends to leave some gum and carbon behind. This is all irrelevant for getting the Scootacar to tune, though. Talk to some experienced Villiers users, not the loudest, but the ones that do the miles without major rebuilds every 500 miles, and it will be clear what works best for these units. A joy I have yet to experience, and possibly now will not, as I am looking to downsize the collection away from Villiers machines in favour of Sachs, Goggo and Saab.

[skootaloon]

Hi all,
I thought I would feedback on the Scootacar idle issue.
Carb stripped and found that there was small daylight though the idle jet. Soaked it in carb cleaner as suggested and a small poke with a piece of wire - result - big daylight through the jet.
Carb back on carb and the engine now idles ok even at cold.
Conclusion - as discussed before don't be fooled by the small amount of daylight through the jet as it could be gummed-up. Mine certainly was so thanks everyone for the help

Cheers
Simon

[Bob Purton]

That's great news. Glad the forum could help. Have you subscribed to Rumcar news?

[steven mandell]

I have been validated!

[Bob Purton]

Yes, Steve, well and truly certified!

Al will probably disagree with me here but I think the Villiers S25 carb is a real gem. Its maintainence free when kept in use. No choke plunger tips to get dissolved or stuck. no choke chamber thread to strip of flare out like a blunderbuss. I would choose one over a Bing or delorto  any day.

[skootaloon]

Hi All,

I subscribed to the last batch of RUMcar news but need to subscribe to this years. I am new to Villiers carbs and must say they seems lot simpler than some of the other models. For instance the Bing on my Heinkel A2 with the temperamental "fuel pump".
I have a DKR Dove scooter with the 31C Villiers engine and the Villiers S19 carb, hopefully this little engine/carb combination will be as sweet as the 9E/S25 set-up
Big Al knows his stuff well and respect his vast knowledge on all things micro car.I have known Alan a long time.

Cheers

Simon (for Big Al - The Barking Pumpkin)

[Big Al]

I have been validated!

I have been valeted .