Author Topic: Siba ignition mystery  (Read 30037 times)

Bob Purton

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2014, 12:13:32 PM »
Well, I don't like the clubs that will not sell to you unless you are a member but its ultimately up to them. I was peeved when the BOC wouldn't sell me a silencer last year as I was not a member of the club, what made it worse was that I had paid a life time membership fee for the bond spares scheme some time earlier. Apparently the scheme fizzled out, a new one was started but the old membership wasn't recognised. No refund offered. Now, that's more like a scam!
With regards to the MOC spares, I would have thought that for someone running three Nobels with Schmitt engines it would be worth you joining. That's what I did years ago when I run my Nobel. It was a joy dealing with Helga!

Big Al

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2014, 03:25:25 PM »
I do not agree with a need to respect restrictive trade practices.  Maybe that's the American in me.
I think it likely that I will source an at least equal quality part locally for at most half the price.
Requiring me to subsidize magazine publishing costs for a mag that I do not need to read merely unnecessarily complicates, obfuscates and increases costs for someone who simply needs a part for a different mark of vehicle.

Great advice Al.  I will give the system a check over next chance I get.
Sorry to say , that your half positive and half negative comment relating to spark strength will require further elaboration to avoid following on deaf ears.

Just that if you mix positive dynostart to negative ignition, or whatever, you are in a muddle.

Same goes for a simple and practical way to construct the gap jump spark enhancing device you mention. Cut HT lead, bare conductor either end, create suitable gap. Cover in a suitable sheath, like a cut down Biro body and shrinkwrap and Bob is your Aunt Lucy.

But I fear the Earth may be in danger of tipping over after having stopped spinning on its axis when I hear you say that you don't know if you agree that only a minority of microcars should be encouraged to be run, and in just specifically sanctioned events to boot.  I certainly hope that we are not beginning to see a new politically correct Al. 

I am always politically correct as politics is like religion and mainly bunkum disguising peer pressure and worse. I leave it to others to form conglomeration of prejudiced beliefs into gangs, especially when they do not coincide with my thoughts, which tend to the libertarian. Eventually most people wake up, or take the easy option of not thinking about it, in which case they become boring. So either way there is not much point in rubbing it in as the majority will be in denial. A gentleman would thus respectfully move the topic elsewhere before there is a distasteful scene. I wonder what the recommended camper is for Schmitters?
 
For if that be so, I fear I have to face the fact that the majority of English gentlemen are  concerned about appearing "proper" to the point of impropriety.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
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DaveMiller

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2014, 03:52:58 PM »
... I was peeved when the BOC wouldn't sell me a silencer last year as I was not a member of the club, what made it worse was that I had paid a life time membership fee for the bond spares scheme some time earlier. Apparently the scheme fizzled out, a new one was started but the old membership wasn't recognised.

You misunderstood, Bob.

The old Spares scheme did indeed come to an end, as it was unworkable.    However, for those who were still club members (of either the Bug Club or the Bond Owners' Club) the old membership was recognised.

Selling spares to club members only may seem odd (or un-american to some!), but it makes sense in some ways:
- The spares organisers often work for nothing other than the benefit of the club members (and why should someone who's not prepared to join the club, or contribute to it in knowledge or social support,  get their attention, time and effort?)
-  the clubs often fork out considerable sums to get parts made.  That money belongs to the club members, and is so deployed for them to have spares available.  Why should anyone else benefit from their investment?
- the spares schemes aren't businesses.  The idea of someone "lining their pockets" is absurd (and far too American  ;) )  In most clubs, any profit made from the sale is ploughed back into expanding the range of spares available.
- when cars are getting rare, if people with those cars don't join the relevant clubs, then those clubs will perish.  When the club goes, any benefits the last members had from the club disappear - so naturally the members want the club to continue, and therefore want other owners to join.  Offering a benefit (such as spares) linked directly to the club is one way of promoting that.

It's a shame, Steven, that as an  American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.

richard

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2014, 04:15:48 PM »
Perhaps it's your manner Steven - you certainly have a way with words. :)
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

Bob Purton

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2014, 04:27:01 PM »
You lay out a logical case there Mr Miller. I still feel cheated over Bond spares though. I ended up making my own silencer which knocks spots off of any Bond club product. That's what I keep telling myself anyway! ;D

steven mandell

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2014, 04:44:55 PM »


It's a shame, Steven, that as an  American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.

Evidently my "way with words" wasn't good enough to get my point across to Dave, as he apparently reversed my point in his understanding.

Requiring the joining of a club to buy parts is a "foreign" concept over here.

Secondarily, if membership dues were based on publishing costs and postage, there would be no need to require a subsidy from the sale of parts.
Personally I do not believe that the cost quoted for the non original condensers is fairly tied to any research, development, or bulk purchase cost.  If I am successful in coming up with a more fairly priced alternative with equal or better similarity of appearance (someone post pic of MOC unit for comparison please) to the originals, I will gladly share the information on this forum.

Now if you want to restrict that trade practice, you can always convert to  Totalitarian Communism. :)

Bob Purton

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2014, 06:38:01 PM »
I guess the answer is when you have spent all your spare time and money setting up a spares scheme of your own and don't want to make a profit we can all buy our stuff from you. Until you have done that please stop whingeing! ::)

steven mandell

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2014, 07:38:33 PM »
Hardly reasonable to require that I set up an entire micro car supply business to be allowed the right to make suggestions that could benefit many of us including yourself.
Would you be willing to share details of how you constructed  your superior Bond silencer?

Bob Purton

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2014, 07:47:35 PM »
Yep. I described it with photo's on this very site.

steven mandell

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2014, 08:18:06 PM »
I knew you had it in you Bob.
That is the attitude I want to support.

Big Al

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2014, 08:35:40 AM »

  When the club goes, any benefits the last members had from the club disappear - so naturally the members want the club to continue, and therefore want other owners to join.  Offering a benefit (such as spares) linked directly to the club is one way of promoting that.

It's a shame, Steven, that as an  American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.

Alternative view could be that the existing members need new members to continue to finance a spares service in much the way a Ponzi scheme works as a pension scheme. Admittedly that is really only true of schemes where money is being removed from the system by preferential discounts, expenses and profit manipulation. The true club 'fair shares for all' is a worthwhile model and worth investing in to join, but seldom exists in its pure form. Where those modified systems are in replacement of the pure club system the question should be, why after 40 years can I not buy more perfect replica new parts for my car, if this self investment scheme and possibly high pricing, is true, as you state? The money is disappearing somewhere? Someone paid, Limited Company? Sorry that is a business. Worse still are thefts of parts, like Isetta and Bond whole spares schemes.

Well now its easy to double check pricing and availability as stuff is available elsewhere. A price check shows availability direct why do I need to buy into a set of rules to access a limited business? You can see why the old fashioned club is coming under pressure. Information is becoming the restricting factor. I note how often it is withheld when requested. A few bad practices in the club structure added and you are going to begin to struggle to hold your audience. I do not make the rules up. It just Is.

I find I am now a member of no Microcar club. Has it prevented me doing things to my cars, no not yet. Will it, probably. But then there is a choice. I can create what I need by research, sell up or I can join the various clubs should they actually sell what I want, at a price I will buy it at inflated by their ponzi scheme fees.

No idea on Bonds, but I to was scammed out of my investment like Bob. Once bitten, twice shy. Goggos, well they have Uwe, who is not a Club. Schmitts? The privateers are taking over and seem to be cheaper or better stocked than the clubs. Club services on info, like events. Well thats working well, as most folk have not a clue what is on when. Or are we all really building for value like Steven, who takes his cars to other States to show and drive them - Oh, thats being an enthusiasts, isn't it. He is American though. You know, the place where these cars are the big news and where the action now is. Steven is the vocal part of the new (not so new) owners of these cars. Only the Brits could ignore the facts and claim that our 50 year old system is as good as the day it was brought forward. Its laughable really. Those poor yanks joining these clubs really do not know what they are letting themselves in for, bloody colonials.

Sorry it all amuses me.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 08:39:30 AM by Big Al »
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
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Grant Kearney

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2014, 11:44:06 AM »
The role model suppliers that I think deserve recognition include the likes of John Meadows or Stephen Boyd of the Scootacar Registry.  They operate these organizations strictly for the personal satisfaction of ensuring that these makes survive the rigors of time.  If they have a part, or indeed go thorough all the tremendous bother of remaking an original or even improved version of a no longer available part, they do their best to get the word out, and then charge just enough to cover their costs.
Now that is service a full order of magnitude higher in the realm of ethics and ideals,  than a "club" that portends to be protecting something for its members, whilst additionally lining their pockets.  The Mafiosa also sells this type of protection.
Let's hear it for the true enthusiast privateers, by giving them a token of our appreciation for not going the way of the profiteers. 
Do we have a Hall of Fame or something like that yet?
We could have another category for people like Andy Carter who are creating high quality parts that would otherwise be unobtainable, and jeopardize the survival of some of our endangered species, and charging a fair price for their product.

I fully agree with you Steven that Stephen Boyd, John Meadows, Alan Budd and Mike Ayriss are doing a sterling job supplying parts and information for the lesser known microcars.  These chaps do if for the love of the make and get little recognition for all their hard work so a 'Hall of Fame' sounds good. 
Mark Green should also be in there for the tremendous work he is doing from your side of the pond for Frisky owners around the world.
The MOC were supplying the original type condenser until recently but I fully understand why they would not invest in tooling to re manufacture to original spec when alternatives are readily available, even if they only have one screw hole.  Once in the black box it's never seen.  Making and soldering an original type bracket onto a new condenser for total originality should not be beyond the average microcar owner.

Big Al

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2014, 08:06:32 AM »
The condenser in question. A prime example of where we are? A substitute is available, it would seem it can be made to look like a accurate replacement and is easy to alter, yet the club in question chooses not to do this. In this case that part is therefore a substitute available by buying membership (Including subsidising the free membership and magazine of all those members of 25 years or more free, a ponzi scheme produced with the best of intentions but a lack of clear thinking. Why is any member, even passed it, going to give up free magazines? The Bond Club chose to do the other)) and paying club overheads of expenses, VAT and profit. The alternative is to buy direct from a local supplier, the same part at possibly 50% cheaper. The choice is yours if you know all that info before you join the club. Did you know all this Steven? Like me do you see this as a rather bad deal.

You might ask why the club is tying its money up in buying a wrong part to sell at 50% more than the 'going rate'. They would offer the good reasoning of service to their members. Well is it? Could I buy a nice new ignition switch bezel, or a set of Roadster spinners remade. After all the club has been going for years reinvesting in new parts. These are special Messerschmitt parts that can be re manufactured. Not available. So more investment is needed, perhaps by not stocking lines available freely elsewhere to free up capitol to invest? Or the profit from these extra consumables is needed to run the service - sounding very much like a business taking a mark up to continue its trade and support an ever increasing overhead of free members. You can make your own mind up, none of this is wrong or immoral, unless the facts are denied or hidden from view.

Re look at the condenser. What else does it fit? Well most microcars, Villiers, Sachs, Excelsior, Anzani, Dolphin and other marine units, scooters, stationary engines etc etc. Indeed a wide range of small machines. As this style of condenser has gone out of stock, a wider market is open as they can substitute our type condensers for others no longer available using a bolt or clip connection. The clip itself can be reused, or taken from a worn old points set. So there is a potentially large market out there for a production run of items, after all the regulator is still being made. This requires a club to think beyond its membership of 500 odd, and in terms of decades of stock spread among other clubs using the same parts. It requires an elephant in the room to move away from the communications area so that dialogue is renewed between all the interested parties, like there used to be. Does the whole group who use this part constitute a big enough, financed order to make an accurate as possible reproduced condenser? Its called clubbing together. I do rather feel the clue is in the name. This is not happening, so we do not know if it could be that original style condensers can be made at a beneficial price for all users of this part, not just a few in an ivory tower (possibly made from previously inactive elephants in the room that died of boredom). This goes for a 100 other parts.

Communications have never been easier. Information exchange techniques never better. Yet there seems very infrequent contact between clubs these days. Add to that the doers, those skilled folk with the ability to make stuff from materials, or even successfully order and progress chase a project seem to be becoming rarer in the clubs and more prevalent doing their own thing outside clubs, often selling into a club things they choose to make off their own back. I know quite a number of these guys and it many cases it was a lack of co ordination, management and sudden withdrawals of support from committees that saw them go 'independent'. In a lot of cases its these part time businesses that keep the clubs going. The clubs become the intermediaries of a lot of small or none existent little businesses set up for pocket money. They buy up the stock, put on there profit and sell to the club member- who if he knows his way round can go direct to each little supplier and buy the same part cheaper. Thus many clubs are acting as retail businesses with at least part of their stock. Be honest, its true. They are not leading a managed and thought out logical investment in spares, but rather competing with the private sector in some cases, using business bully tactics to dictate they retain primary control of markets, rather than seeking to harness the creative folk and direct them to produce a range of goods in a constructive partnership.

The sad part of all this is it is so hard for a newbie to find his way through this labyrinth of supply and information. Folk like me who have been around for yonks have realized what was happening and selfishly bought up a lot of cheap parts, and directly sourced parts from the private constructors, full in the knowledge that the whole thing was drifting to a more expensive and possibly less well stocked spares situation. So now not only the creative guys, but the experienced guys, also, no longer need the clubs. They have the best cars, the spares and the information. The clubs need them though. Well time to start offering something worth having, like joined up thinking. Like all catch 22s that is rather difficult when much of the talent is holding most of the best stuff for itself, some collecting more still, than can ever be used by one person. A situation I am now re balancing as it becomes a drag.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

DaveMiller

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2014, 08:41:59 AM »
Or, Al, a simpler explanation:

On condensors:
- Most people would use a different condensor (virtually any automotive condensor will work - go to Halfords!)
- Some want it to look right, so re-use the clip.
- Quite a few of the originals remain.
- Ergo, there's not really a strong market for getting them remade (otherwise a commercial trader would have done so).

On parts sold by clubs at higher prices than the market:
- clubs need to get special parts made, but really not the regular stuff.
- some club members actually want to get parts from the club (they're too far in the sticks to go searching the shops, and don't use computers).  Yes, they even order a single spark plug, and pay the postage on the outward cheque and the inward parcel!
- the club can't compete with the big boys, so will be dearer, and wants to raise the funds for special parts.   Why would they sell the regular parts more cheaply, and lower their ability to do that?

None of this seems "hidden" or scamming.

Bob Purton

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Re: Siba ignition mystery
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2014, 08:55:55 AM »
Congratulations Dave for making your case in a concise post.
Al, I got half way through yours and started to lose the will to live!