Author Topic: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death  (Read 10160 times)

steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2014, 07:43:24 PM »
So now we need to add steering chain slack adjustment criteria to drive train same info needed.
Sounds like you have a steering gear alignment problem, as your shimming of sprocket suggests that you are already aware- and are overtightening the steering chain as compensation.
I just checked and tightened mine.  It had only slightly less play than the drive chain.  I tightening it to the point where I began feeling substantial enough Resistance through the adjustment bolt to cause me pause to tighten further without factory recommendation.
I was rewarded by this tuning out about half of the violence.  So it may become possible that with adding an adjustable steering damper, and perhaps some other tweaks plus slight modification to my driving technique, to acceptably tune if out.  But that would leave the cause incurred, and the price for that would likely show show up some where further down the line.  Plus it violates my standard.  So we are not off the hook yet here.

I won't try the  manual up shift into second due to the compromised condition of the last 1/4" of my crankshafts splines, which I have epoxied onto the 2ND gear engagement basket.
The fact that you need to use yours means that 2ND gear clutch issues are likely endemic to the species, and that we should both get entire new clutch assemblies that have been assembled correctly, and not fooled with.
I never found a source.  Have you?  Tinnerman was recommended,  but as far as I could tell, only had a couple parts.

I be included a picture of the greasy steering chain run for others reference.  Funny how I needed to see the picture to notice the loose bolt sitting in the grease.  I wonder if that came off of what is wrong with my car.  Just kidding- that would be too easy.

I see that you are not using your battery box, that appears intact, but without it's Teflon cover showing.
You were right that it was a 3 sided box bonded to the external shell.  That is until someone cut the biggest side entirely, and about a third of the smaller sides off of mine.
I am using a smaller battery placed lower down in my original plastic parcel basket to keep the cars c.g. lower.
I spent far too long making a bracket from a strong tie, and tapped threads into it at the same location where the basket retaining bolts were.  So I even reused the original bolts and tied it together with a Honda motorcycle rubber strap that I managed to fit nicely.

steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 07:45:01 PM »
Here is my battery box mod.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 08:31:43 PM by steven mandell »

Big Al

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 09:01:31 PM »
The little I do know of these engines is they do not tolerate being towed. Since the Sachs 50 is an easy engine to start, in many cases either kick or pedal, the need to employ such a drastic starting method is frustration due to an inability to adjust the engine to run up well. Add to that the loading placed on the drive system which is counter that when the engine is providing the power and you have continued towing as an excellent way to upset the front of the car. In the same way that rolling roads kill DAF Variomatics.
I also find the lack of specific data on Sachsonette oil details slightly worrying. With a proportion of over 2 million engines being automatic there has to be data available of the net, or via purchase, on this engine. Indeed I seem to recall finding a Scandinavian manual scanned on line for it at one time. There were references to buy data on buy a manual sites too.
Logic says. What was broke when it came? The second stage clutch and shaft. What has been changed? The second stage clutch and shaft for used parts at some point not assembled correctly. The problem is related to the second stage coming in, which has a partially inoperative selection. Thus the most likely bit to not be working is the second stage clutch and shaft.
There is no harm in checking all bearings, alignments and tensions.
The tensioner looks to have been inverted as it shows a hole and a flat edge as if it had worn out once in the other orientation. If so that is evidence of either long usage, being thrashed or towed often. Other condition of the rest of the parts might guide one to which of those options is likeliest. Forcible over use is more likely to have broken something. We already know the clutch was broken in an odd way. So you can see where my money is going on condition. If correct cure might be rather difficult, especially without firm data on which to base the work. Maybe a second car might prove a boon, but it might arrive with its own faults.

Roots car, ignoring the worsening fuel leak, was always easy to start even as the starting system become less effective. Ian is resolving those issues with a service of the starter unit and of the tap. I got it going at several events so Root could drive the car, often at some throttle due to the excess fuel due to the leak. Non of the other Sachs 50 I have had have been hard to get running. Such is their normal reliability I never had cause to play with the clutch systems.
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steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2014, 09:15:40 PM »
The great Zardoz has spoken. ::)
OK, I'm going a little grandiose here.  But the image of the hovering giant head was too strong to go unmentioned.
Al has always got a most welcome big head for these kinds of things.
However,  I haven't fed the big head enough specifically correct data to do the most good yet.
So I have included the , excuse the expression, "exploded view" taken more than a year ago as I was first taking  the broken clutch apart.
Looks to me like it is the first gear clutch that shattered.
Other than the crankshaft whose damaged splines occupy only the last 1/4", that are not loaded upon automatic up shifts- I don't know what other damaged shaft you might be referring to.
Sorry if my previous information was too incomplete or misleading.
The smaller diameter basket shaped piece at the end closest to the camera, that is encircled by a spring, is the part whose internal splines were found to be stripped, with consequent damage to lesser degree inflicted upon the last 1/4" of the crankshafts splines.
The big plate at this end has a beveled face at its periphery lined with asbestos like clutch material, and is the alternative mechanism for engaging second gear.

This just in-  a scooter specialist just called me to say that a dragging wheel at the rear, via low tire pressure, dragging brake, or bad wheel bearing could also be a source of generating an offset load that could try to torque steer the car.
That would particularly make sense if the loading were cyclical, like a bad bearing jamming up a bit, once per revolution.  Could even make sense to be initiated by the possible momentary interlude between the front wheel being powered by first and second gear, as I would expect this type of effect to be most noticable while in an unpowered state.  He mentioned all this because he said that side car set ups run similar off set loads, and are particularly prone to episodes of tank slapping.

So I'll throw a block under the rear axle and spin the tires to check for resistance after checking the tire pressures.
Admittedly quite a long shot.
But almost easier to check than to argue about.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 09:19:39 PM by steven mandell »

steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2014, 09:29:13 PM »
Here is an alternate view that simplifies the arrangement of major clutch components.
You should be able to see the totally stripped inner splines of the peripherily notched basket like piece on the near end, that sat at the tip of the crankshaft.
I used metal filled epoxy on a replacement piece to partially compensate for the damaged splines at the end of the crank, but still do not intend to use the manual over ride engagement of second gear mechanism that is the only initiator of an effect that depends on this connection.

Big Al

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 08:48:43 AM »
Mr Spock meets Zardoz. Hmm, interesting.
I was looking at logic there, If backed by evidence there might be answers. If the questions have been answered then move on. It is only by illumination that the source of the problem can be found. So the next idea is as good as the last, unless someone has had a previous issue the same.
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steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2014, 07:55:34 AM »
No, I'm not taking a big old TV appliance to the dump.
That is my Minicomtesse having survived the rigors of it's 370 mile excursion to Monterey.
Good news is that not only have I successfully recreated the pedal drive, but the horrific shaking during transmission shifting is now reduced by 80% or so to a nearly acceptable and brief shudder.
Proper tire pressures plus balancing the front wheel/ tire, or maybe just re breaking itself in after reclocking / a different indexing of the first and second gear clutches on the crankshaft splines relative to one another?
I don't even know if that last proposed explanation entirely makes sense.

However I am glad that it has ocurred in time for the Concourse DE Lemons tommarrow morning.
I'll let you know how it goes.

steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2014, 05:08:39 AM »
This just in....Mincomtesse takes top honors ;D

Big Al

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2014, 08:43:50 AM »
LeMons 24 howers. How does this work? How does it go backwards? How can it so many wheels? How........ Just accept is a slightly sour taste but refreshing. Its the Lemon to some over restored Gin.

I say, awfully well done, old fruit. Top hole, what!
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Barry

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 07:43:28 PM »
Here is an alternate view that simplifies the arrangement of major clutch components.
You should be able to see the totally stripped inner splines of the peripherily notched basket like piece on the near end, that sat at the tip of the crankshaft.
I used metal filled epoxy on a replacement piece to partially compensate for the damaged splines at the end of the crank, but still do not intend to use the manual over ride engagement of second gear mechanism that is the only initiator of an effect that depends on this connection.

Is this the right sort of thing?

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/SACHS-NOS-Saxonette-50-Clutch-1st-Gear-Arctic-Cat-Coleman-Mini-Bike-Vintage-/121416746452?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

Big Al

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2014, 09:09:54 PM »
I reckon so. Same as the one the other geezer had with the Snowtrak thingamabob I put you on to.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
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steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2014, 07:31:44 AM »
Thanks Barry.
It appears that we both ran across the fact that the Saxonette drive train was also used in the Fox Sundowner minibike, and Artic Cat smowmobiles that were sold in North America.  This seller has some good NOS first and second gear clutches to offer, but nowhere other than by purchasing a lightly used complete 2 speed clutch unit was I able to replace the peripherly noched, and internally splined basket like piece shown in the accompanying picture.

In the Minicomtesse this piece allows a manual over ride engagement of the automatic engagement of the second gear clutch.  I do not know if this feature was available on the mini bike or snowmobile, but do not intend to use it for upshifting, as unlike Stuarts experience with his Comtesse- this one does now upshift automatically.   I also will use jumper cables if the battery runs flat, as further stripping the crankshaft's most distal splines (pictured) that engage this piece is a risk better avoided.
At any rate, I am finally a happy camper, as my Comtesse went from the shakes of death to idling, shifting and driving well enough for 20 minutes in line to pick up the highest award at the  Concourse de Le Mons. :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:39:50 AM by steven mandell »

Barry

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 07:54:35 AM »
Thanks Steven.
I think I would need to dismantle the set-up myself to fully understand what's going on.
My Flipper has a saxonette two speed engine and whilst driving around the garden I could not work out if it was in first or second gear.
It has a cable (with no operating lever attached) which enters the engine - see photo. 
I used some Mole gripps to operate the cable but couldn't work out what it did.
It seems it may be a way of keeping the engine in first gear rather than a device for forcing it to change up to second?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5iypbfabfn7t7d/P1060765.wmv?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6d3idjj8opoew5y/P1060460.MOV?dl=0
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:12:18 AM by Barry »

Big Al

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 08:57:13 AM »
Holding first makes sense for descending a steep hill, etc. DAF had the same ability, in their case holding the cones in place.
Yet to really test out the efficiency of the drive on the Shopper, but it is a very similar unit. The rear wheel. tyre, looks a bit wonky so I might have to have that off. Beginning to be a Sachs Saxonette Auto fanciers club!
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steven mandell

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Re: Minicomtesse and the Shake of Death
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2014, 10:27:09 AM »
Thanks Steven.

My Flipper has a saxonette two speed engine and whilst driving around the garden I could not work out if it was in first or second gear.
It has a cable (with no operating lever attached) which enters the engine - see photo. 
I used some Mole gripps to operate the cable but couldn't work out what it did.
It seems it may be a way of keeping the engine in first gear rather than a device for forcing it to change into second.
If it accelerates well from a standing start, you are likely in first gear.
The change to second would be obvious, even if not accompanied by the "shake of death".
If you are indeed in first gear and pulling on the stock rubber lawn mower type pull handle has no effect- then your clutch / 2 speed tranny unit is probably suffering from a deranged 2ND gear clutch.  On mine, it was the first gear clutch that had exploded.

Although it may seem reasonably useful to have a way to downshift into first gear for descending hills, I consider it highly unlikely that a set up that looks identical to my Comtesses' s could be made to work on first gear rather than second.  See pic for view of non intuitive path of cable induced and lever transferred push onto thin bevelled strip located as a secondary frictional area for second gear engagement.