Author Topic: A mine of mis-information!  (Read 9367 times)

Jim Janecek

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 03:06:01 PM »
Anyhow the whole article is a mix of oddments trawled sometimes incorrectly from other sources - par for the course recently

plus it is all written in Canadian, I'm sure much was lost in the translation.

DaveMiller

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 03:55:06 PM »
that would be more " unique steering wheel arrangement " wouldn't it?
I just meant that the original article referred to the 'unique' door having the steering wheel mounted on it.

DaveMiller

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 04:17:17 PM »
T60's with 4 wheels, and only 4 h.p.  That would be a good trick as the 60 refers to its claimed speed capability in m.p.h.
I'm playing devil's advocate here (can you tell?   ;) ) but I just worked it out for the 328cc version, and got 4.171 hp, which rounds truthfully to "four".  (As with much writing, it's often unclear whether the author means hp or bhp.)

steven mandell

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 05:18:49 PM »
Dave- please elaborate on your data set and figuring principles that allowed you to work  up your 4 h.p. figure.
Even the pessimistic author gives my light, but only industrial type Villiers engined "abominable" Petite credit for twice the h.p. (or are we talking b.h.p.- explanation of significance of difference also appreciated), yet goes on to quote a claimed top speed of only 48 m.p.h.
I know that the Petite is only equipped with a three speed transmission, but taking about as many seconds to attain its top speed as miles that it would travel, if it could maintain that lucky feat for an hour, would effectively argue against the gearing being its speed limiting factor.
The Petite is similarly narrow, but presents a little more height in its frontal approach to the wind.  However the reduced turbulence inflicted upon the airflow by a hard top design would tend to act to offset that theoretical advantage.
Not to mention that Wilkepedia quotes the T 60's output at 9 h.p., which to me sounds like a conservative figure in comparison to other two strokes of its day being credited with more than that, and being less than 2/3 its displacement.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:21:28 PM by steven mandell »

Bob Purton

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 05:50:40 PM »
Isetta's manufacturer not good at making it profitably?
Doing so is often quoted as saving BMW financially.

I recall reading somewhere that it was not the actual SALES of Isettas that "saved" BMW, but the showing that they could adapt to market demands relatively quickly to stay afloat convinced banks to continue to invest in them despite the low demand for their usual line of vehicles. 
That being said, it is easier to simply say "the Isetta saved BMW" without getting into the specifics.

Absolutely Steve and it's my favourite rib to owners of big horrid BMW's when they ask me what make Thumper is , usually when I'm filling up on the petrol station forecourt. Having said that I get the feeling that few of them believe me!

Big Al

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 06:14:20 PM »
Isetta's unique front opening door ?

I'm stuck to think of any others that have the steering wheel attached.  Suggestions?

Trident, not quite in the same way. The Jawa car, I think might. Bound to be some weirdo thing from somewhere I never heard of too. They say nothing is new in automotive engineering after 1904. Well I am not quite sure about that but I agree with the principle.
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DaveMiller

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 06:43:49 PM »
Dave- please elaborate on your data set and figuring principles that allowed you to work  up your 4 h.p. figure.
We're talking the difference here between brake horse power (bhp) and horse power as used, years ago, for taxation purposes.

The bhp is a measure of how powerful an engine is - so, for example, a basic Villiers 197 might give about 9 bhp, but could be tuned, in racing format, to give about 30 bhp.

When we talk, though, of Austin 7, 12, 16, etc, Morris 8, 10, 12, Lanchester 14, and so on, then we're referring to the "horsepower" by which those cars were taxed. The formula for calculating that hp (the "RAC" horsepower) takes no account of how much power the engine actually produces (!), but concerns only the area of the top of the piston:

RAC hp = bore (in inches) squared, times number of cylinders, divided by 2.5

For the 328cc Berkeley engine, that's 2.283 squared, times 2, divided by 2.5.

Since the RAC hp system continued for many years as the basis for annual car tax in the UK, it greatly influenced the production of narrow-bore, long stroke engines - nicely torquey, and easy to drive, but neither spritely nor particularly economical!

Britain stopped using the RAC hp to determine car tax at the beginning of 1947, but the public (and motoring magazines) continued into the 50s sometimes to talk of engines in those terms.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 07:01:43 PM by DaveMiller »

steven mandell

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2014, 01:45:21 PM »
Could anything be worse than letting English politicians play physicist?
Hmm...other side of Chunnel  a 2 CV at half the politician "rated " horsepower" of the Berk and somewhat greater weight gets you close to the same top speed.
Anybody have a clue as to their formula for distorting actual H.P.?

Bob Purton

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2014, 05:43:06 PM »
Errr yes, letting American politicians play physicist!  ;)

steven mandell

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2014, 08:13:16 PM »
Here in the US the only variations on horsepower quoting are based on actual conditions of performance, i.e. with or without power robbing accessories, or measured on a dyno vs. at the rear wheels.
there is also a nod to DIN  horsepower which gives only slightly different figures, and may have some basis in German convention.
By and large, we don't let our politicians wreak havoc on our beloved horsepower ratings. ;)

richard

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2014, 08:25:18 PM »
hi steven don't get the impression the Royal Automobile Club , RAC , are politicians . Whilst i don't know the background to this issue I imagine the government took a rating as used by the RAC already or asked them to come up with a scale . I think it fair to assume the RAC were " non political " though
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DaveMiller

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2014, 09:38:17 PM »
Actually, what the "politicians*" were doing was quite sensible: to settle on a simply-quantified system of taxing a larger-engined vehicle more than a smaller-engined one.

Doing so by actual power output would be argumentative and uwieldy.

What was ridiculous was to call it 'horsepower'!

[*In the UK, anyway, a decision on the practical implementation of the desire for a taxation system would have been a government department, rather than political, matter.]

richard

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2014, 09:53:28 PM »
am i right in saying that in America the dept. staff would be " political " ,  in Britain they would not be ?
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Big Al

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2014, 08:03:16 AM »
At a tangent. If horsepower were taxed, suddenly claims of neddys in engines would be reduced to a lower, more likely, average level to get products registered cheaply and continued sales advantage. Pure engine size is no more accurate, and that was used as a system for a while. Now we are on emissions, having scrapped lean burn technology. It all sounds political to me, as does State theft in the first place.
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steven mandell

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Re: A mine of mis-information!
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2014, 09:14:38 AM »
am i right in saying that in America the dept. staff would be " political " ,  in Britain they would not be ?
No