Author Topic: Register and archive. Purpose and future.  (Read 9861 times)

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1220
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2015, 10:42:37 AM »
This is all very much living in the dark ages with perhaps one very part time person being fully responsible for an archive.

I agree with Alastairs summary.

So many important archives are now digitised and made public.  The public can fill in the gaps if they have access to see what has already been collected.
The original documents can be hidden away for protection or kept by the contributor.

It is impossible for one part time  'keeper' of the archive to be expected to make much progress in collecting and indexing more and more information.

Rather than just one, or a small team, trying to make progress on research (in medical, space  or geological fields etc.)  The power of thousands of people and computers is harnessed to make progress in months rather than decades.

In principle, I am suggesting that an archive should be made public allowing more missing information to be uncovered.

DaveMiller

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2015, 11:29:33 AM »
There's sense in what you say, Barry, but also some difficulties.

An archive controlled by a limited number of people can be trusted - useful when it comes to supporting the provenance of a vehicle, when it needs to be registered, auctioned, or put in a museum, etc.

Expanding the work introduces more work, plus the work of organising, ratifying, standardising and managing that more work - and who is to do that?

There are then some legal problems.  For example, if I owned a particularly interesting vehicle, I'd be happy for a "private" archive to know that, and to know my address, and perhaps some details about the purchase.  I would not be happy for that to be accessible generally, online, for security reasons ("Hello, fancy a Bloggs Mk 7 in fabulous condition, currently valued at £45,000? Well, mine lives at 23 Railway Terrace, Naffsham").  Nor would it be legal for people to keep that record, unless the individuals named had consented to the details kept, and there was in place a proper management of the data to ensure that personal details were (a) correct and (b) deleted when no longer true.

A lot of work. And expensive.


Alastair

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 48
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2015, 11:57:58 AM »
I'll work on the assumption that your analogy Al, is made tongue in cheek. When I made reference to original source material, I meant material that was published at the time. I would class David's photos as falling into this category. I wouldn't expect David to HAVE to hand over material with a family connection unless he wished it preserved for examination by future generations. (There comes a time in all our lives that we should perhaps consider this.)
Jean has an archive of advertising material, photographs and a variety of related publications which people can request information from. I'm 100% in agreement with Barry about the value of digitising a collection such as this and making it more accessible but I know from my own experience just how much work is involved in a project like that. I spent literally weeks digitising paperwork associated with the Register so that I could easily share photographs and records of vehicles with their current owners and address the concerns of people on this very forum who have said in the past that the Register wasn't relevant. As the process of collecting material is constantly on-going the job that lies ahead is not getting easier.
I firmly believe that Jean and Edwin showed great forethought when they created RUM back in 1980 and the information they saved from being lost becomes more and more relevant with the passage of time. Unfortunately in the digital age everyone expects to do a search online for the information they seek and have it instantly. That will only happen if people offer their time to make it happen. RUM isn't a large organisation with employed staff, it is made up of a very small core of individuals who give their time to help others. I took on the role of Registrar 6 years ago following an appeal from Jean for someone to take on some of her workload. At the same time she requested someone take on the accounts. Six years later I've taken on the role having witnessed the struggle by so many to hide behind a microcar. Does anyone reading this have the time to assist RUM to develop the way Forum users seem to expect?   

Jean

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
    • www.rumcars.org
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2015, 12:02:32 PM »
The basis of the RUM archive was formed when Tony Marshall 'retired' from the scene in the mid eighties and gave RUM all the brochures, newspaper cuttings, old magazines etc.,etc., that he had accumulated in the early years.  I added these to the items of information and pictures that I had received during from 1980 onwards when I started the Register and it still continues to grow.

In the 1990's  I managed to sort the information into make and model roughly and I was also able to sort Tony's magazine's and tag the pages with microcar content, and even got as far as indexing what I had on the computer. All this material is stored in the loft above my office and in my office itself.  Sadly I am no longer  able to climb into the loft and the material that has accumulated in the last few years remains largely unsorted. Added to these files are most back copies of most one make club magazines plus many many books that have been published.

In the past people like Chris Rees, Giles Chapman,and others that have gone on to publish books on microcars having taken advantage of sifting through these files, when carrying out their researches. I would very much hope there may be some way of keeping this archive together for many more years for the benefit of all enthusiasts.

RUM is by no means the only source of microcar information, several other of our members have their own collections of information.  In an ideal world it would be wonderful if there could be one central archive available to all but it seems to me to be a mammoth task.

I would welcome any suggestions that could be made as to how these RUMCAR assets may be preserved.  Perhaps some could separate the Archive aspect of the initial Swift car topic so that a meaningful discussion about Archives could be held under a news heading.  Jean
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 01:58:31 PM by Jean »
Jean
Register of Unusual Microcars

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2015, 12:44:08 PM »
Some are still confusing the register with the archive. If the archive was put on digital format and made available to all it wouldn't entail who owns what and where its kept, that is part of the register, not the archive. The archive is general information about the marques.

It sounds to me like Barry may be volunteering to digitalize said archive.

AndyL

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2015, 03:08:43 PM »
When it some to any job which is for the benefit of the majority, I'm always in favour of the wisdom that says many hands make light work.

Such a task would be significantly easier for a team of a dozen people coordinated by a central person. With internet connections it's easier to keep everyone in touch with progress etc.

Too often in clubs and societies, the willing horse gets overloaded and the legs begin to buckle.
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

DaveMiller

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2015, 04:37:54 PM »
Quote from: Bob Purton on Today at 12:44:08 PM
Some are still confusing the register with the archive. If the archive was put on digital format and made available to all it wouldn't entail who owns what and where its kept, that is part of the register, not the archive. The archive is general information about the marques.

It sounds to me like Barry may be volunteering to digitalize said archive.

Mmmm.  Not sure about that, Bob.  In many cases, yes; in some, no.  Who is going to do the work of separating the "yesses" from the "nos"?

As an example close to my heart: if I gave a set of Bond Club magazines to the archive, covering the last x years, it would give lots of useful information on use and activity, on repair and on values, and so on.  But who is going to redact the personal detail, before making the contents available?  I do not wish the general public to be able to see what rallies I attend, when they are, and when I will therefore next be away from home ...

I would not wish a 40-year-old picture of my car outside my then home to be a way in for some scam involving ringing up my aged father at that address still, and so on.  This, I'm afraid, is the sort of nonsense that general online access gives rise to!  It's a wonderful thing, but needs rules and care in its implementation.


Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2015, 05:04:27 PM »
Hmmm I never imagined club magazines as being part of the archive but you may be right.

Alastair

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 48
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2015, 07:43:49 PM »
Obviously a digital archive is at the moment a dream. It would need one or more volunteers with the time and the will to make it anything other than that but while I agree with a lot that has been said, I'm not sure if I understand the logic of the argument against club magazines being kept in an archive.
To be more specific, I don't quite understand the threat of having a 40 year old picture of a car parked outside a house. Surely the photo must have appeared in a club magazine that was at one time published i.e. it's been put in the public domain with the consent of the owner, when surely any immediate perceived risk of theft etc. is greater and that being the case does an owner have control over an image after it's been published. Obviously if that argument were taken on, the only photographs we would have of our microcars would be factory released images. The same argument applies to photos of cars taken at rallies. Surely if you exhibit a car at a public gathering organised with public access, you cannot control who takes photographs or how they're used. I know that the vast majority of images in the Register photographic archive have been taken at public events so the Register would certainly be the poorer if that viewpoint were accepted. Sorry Dave, I can't agree with you on that one.

Alastair       

DaveMiller

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2015, 08:41:48 PM »
I'm not sure if I understand the logic of the argument against club magazines being kept in an archive.
To be more specific, I don't quite understand the threat of having a 40 year old picture of a car parked outside a house. Surely the photo must have appeared in a club magazine that was at one time published i.e. it's been put in the public domain with the consent of the owner ...

I understand your points, Alastair. And might I emphasize that I think an online store of CAR-related information would be a wonderful thing.

My negative-sounding comments arise from the use of personal data (on live persons).  It boils down to two things:
(1) electronic, internet-accessible data is so much more powerful (to those who might misuse it) than the original form in which it was compiled.  I have no concern about publishing my address, and where my cars and I will be when, in the limited distribution of a club magazine. And it would be for that purpose  that I gave the information.
(2) anyone running a computer or "filing" system containing personal data needs to run it in accordance with whatever law applies.  In the UK, that would mean, for example, that the operators have to ensure that data is accurate, is given and kept for the specified purposes, is updated properly and is not made available outside the UK.

What will be difficult is separating the car information from the personal.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 08:41:24 AM by DaveMiller »

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 09:28:12 AM »
The purpose of RUM is not for me to say. It is a function of what those doing it want to do, and a framework of ideals. That has to face up to a need to respect private information and the law. RUM currently has little to chaff with against the latter problems. I think Barry's ideal might find more resistance. Trouble is like all really great collective ideals, there are always those who will pervert it to self advancement.

I have long been aware, like many collectors, that showing a car is to invite people to photograph and publish images of it, even worse, making statements about it, without reference to the owner. It has thus been many a collectors habit to restrict access, and knowledge, of that which they own, to retain control of the cars. I myself have suffered inconvenience and loss to people stealing identities, and cloning cars. This will be one reason certain vehicles will not be seen at rallies or events.

Yet buy the same token, not revealing a car can still lead to it being faked as it is assumed it does not exist and provides an assumed free original ID to be adopted. I have owned one very simple to prove original car that has a very convincing fake using its ID. If the two ever meet then someone is going to be very upset! In this case the group of cars were hidden for security reasons of remote storage.


As to the future and security of archive and register, be assured that there is a safe haven. I confirmed with David Hambleton that he remains willing to include part, or the entire, register into the Trojan Trust, or spin off a separate Trust, to administer, continue to build, and provide access and dissemination of the information in a way that is legal and fair. This as previously advised. The aim of the Trojan Archive Trust is gain museum space, or its own museum structure. It is almost entirely digitised with hard copies filed. I forget the number of documents, but its in the 1,000s. If that museum is achieved then the paper archive has a base from which it can be accessed by appointment at pretty short notice. With that safety net in place it is for the Register to find a better solution from a position of some strength, I think.

Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1220
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 09:57:17 AM »
Some are still confusing the register with the archive. If the archive was put on digital format and made available to all it wouldn't entail who owns what and where its kept, that is part of the register, not the archive. The archive is general information about the marques.

It sounds to me like Barry may be volunteering to digitalize said archive.

Bob, the funny thing is, it is something I would like to do.
I have suggested a basic idea in the past but with mixed response.  more against than in favour due to vehicle identity theft and copyright etc.

I now have a massive index of Microcar photos etc.
The idea would be to run a separate folder in each photo folder for technical, publicity and other data specific to that model.

My suggestion was not for me to do it all but for anyone with scans, to add to the appropriate folder.
If someone sees something wrong (I am not an expert) or in the wrong place, advise me and I will sort it out.

Lots of moans and groans about this in the past so I just keep adding photos as they turn-up.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xiu9h6x7qbtfdqh/AAAZW1TFPepeQu-RyeT4qnYaa?dl=0

I am very happy to scan anything people want scanned - I have all the gear and know-how.
I had a bit of an upset with Mike once because he did not want to part with originals.  That is all in the past and forgotten.  He has been very helpful with Cursor info.

No doubt there will be many reasons why this idea would not work.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:03:46 AM by Barry »

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 10:15:40 AM »
Maybe its time to just do it independently of Rumcars or any other clubs but I guess thats what you have already done.  The BIBA,  Barry's independent bubble archive. People can blank out the registration numbers on the pictures they submit.

richard

  • Rich
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4566
  • Bond ,Gordon,Bruetsch
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 10:23:14 AM »
Just had a look Barry there are a lot there ! It could do with a bit of tidying up re Bond A /B's but generally looks useful . Many of the Gordon and Bruetschs are straight from my sets but I am not sure that I am entitled to them myself ..... :-\ we've just sorted the A/B i think  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 12:17:33 PM by richard »
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1220
Re: Register and archive. Purpose and future.
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 11:11:53 AM »
Just had a look Barry there are a lot there ! It could do with a bit of tidying up re Bond A /B's but generally looks useful . Many of the Gordon and Bruetschs are straight from my sets but I am not sure that I am entitled to them myself ..... :-\

Thanks Richard and I agree about the Bonds.  I am no expert and the later Bonds seem to cross over a bit with back wing identification.  A's and B's seem to depend on the length of the body behind the back arches? but some A's have been extended.  See if you can sort them out for me :)  if you cant move anything about that might be an advantage.  Contributors could just upload files to an 'awaiting filing' folder perhaps.

Th Gordon and Bruetsch photos may originate from you but if they are in the public domain I just grab them.  apologies.

I would prefer to make my index available to Rumcars contributors only, others at special request.