Author Topic: Villiers 9e troubles  (Read 4536 times)

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Villiers 9e troubles
« on: June 21, 2015, 07:58:27 PM »
This evening I got the car reassembled and decided it was time for the first test drive up my road.The engine pulls quite well but the problem is that once i switch off I cannot start it again. I turn it over and over on the dynastart until it backfires.
Now here is the odd thing. If I take the plug out and put it straight back in the engine restarts and runs fine. I have not encountered this before but as the spark seems to be ever present I'm guessing its a carb issue? Fuel air lock?
Any ideas you villiers guys?

richard

  • Rich
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4566
  • Bond ,Gordon,Bruetsch
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2015, 08:25:37 PM »
not sure Bob but I feel sure I have seen the querie  raised somewhere else fairly recently hmmmm

best of luck with it
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

plas man

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2015, 08:30:38 PM »
? air lock in the petroil pipe from the tank to carb ? , time taken to remove the plug refill's the carb ???
loose crankcase drain plug ?
petroil in tank low - turn on reserve tap ?


wandering a bit here but what most dont realise is , if 9/11E was ex IC transplant , then its spent all its life running in reverse when fitted to the cripple car .

(and finaly the egigable age for a bus pass is 60   ;) )

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2015, 08:42:43 PM »
Hmmm, I have an electric fuel valve and not a very good drop on the fuel line from tank to carb. Maybe tomorrow I will rig up a shortened fuel line bypassing the tap and see if it cures it.
Thanks for the suggestions but keep them coming please.

It has a full tank of fuel, engine is rebuilt with new crank seals.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 08:55:13 PM by Bob Purton »

richard

  • Rich
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4566
  • Bond ,Gordon,Bruetsch
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2015, 08:43:32 PM »
I think that's an AWFUL way to describe an invalid car Plas Man ! badly chosen words I think
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2015, 08:45:59 PM »
True but please dont change the subject, you can come back to that issue later!

Peel replica, Steve Fisk

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 568
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2015, 09:18:14 PM »
My money's on the fuel valve , how bigs the fuel chamber on these carbs ?

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2015, 09:44:56 PM »
Fairly big. 
Another thing it could be has just been pointed out to me on the other forum by a Bond owner. The car backfires when trying to restart it and does so just as I let go of the ignition switch. It could indicate that the dynastart is using all the current and not enough to produce a good enough spark so when the starter is switched of the plug kicks in and causes the backfire. Could explain it but doesnt offer the cure. The plug, coil and condenser are all new.
Any more ideas?

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2015, 10:34:28 PM »
Backfire is timing, or unburned fuel in the exhaust being ignited by a hot discharge. That would suggest its not a fuel prob, unless its to much fuel.
That places the fault as electric once checked. A dodgy dynostart will take all the power and reduce the HT output. sO A STARTING TEST WITHOUT THE DYNOSTART MIGHT BE IN ORDER. dEPENDS IF YOU CAN DO THAT IN CONTROLED CIRCUMSTANCES. wINDY GUN ON THE ENGINE. STATIC BUMP START.
My continuing problem here is you can no longer buy quality HT lead ends to make up good HT leads. I have several where I have reused parts to get back to copper cored HT leads that are playing up. The best items screwed in, or were pinned across, rather than relying on a crimp I have not the tool to recreate.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2015, 11:08:45 PM »
Or maybe a test involving use of a separate battery feeding the ignition system?

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 07:28:32 AM »
Yes.

But once running you need to find out where the dynostarter system is not working. A give away is not turning over backwards, as its a weaker unit in that direction. If it worked first off, and then is troublesome, that suggests, if dyno fault, a poor joint or contact. They get hot and thus the electrical resistance increases sapping spare energy. This can end in a burned out area. So I would be a bit concerned to be running the engine for very long until I have more data to suggest where the fault is overall.

Sadly its one of those rather tedious jobs of illiminating each item in a logical sequence. I have several cars to do and am finding motivation hard to muster with so much else on. Invariably it is down to a simple error, a useless new replacement part or assuming the previous owner would know the simplest of the simple.

Earthing is always a good start. I always have earth to engine and chassis from the battery on a dynostarter car due to the large voltages. The black box is also earthed to the engine and chassis.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 08:51:11 AM »
Thanks Al. I just checked and I have earth to chassis but no earth to engine, only engine to black box and the black box is bolted to the chassis. I will run a seperate earth from battery to engine and see if it makes a difference. Also will check the box back plate is making good contact with chassis metal.
Better leave it till later in the day as now the car is in the front garden, what with my home made silencer, I will not be popular! ;D

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 10:05:14 AM »
A nice megaphone exhaust Nice!

Both Schmitt and Treinkel follow this practice. The Treinkel having a specific double ended earth strap. But of course the Treinkel has no Black Box.

Next fav is Coil. If it gets hot connected in 5 to 10 minutes, its suspect. Again the resistance increases as it heats from a short. The spark dies. Condensers are just weird. Ideally both should be away from heat sources, a design principle not well followed by some manufacturers! Fiat 126 is very bad here, and that is a million made car!
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5154
    • Inter microcar
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 10:55:55 AM »
Thanks Al. I may take the coil off Thumper as I know its a good un and try it with that after the earthing exercise.
On the sister forum Nick suggested just closing the plug gap but I really cant see that making enough difference to be it. Still, I will try all the suggestions. Isnt it great to have such a microcar community thats willing to to help!

Ps. The dynastart appears to funcion correctly , works in both direction and is lively. The dyo lights all go on and off as they should.

Well I say that, but as its been a long time now since I had the schmitt, when reverse rotation is selected, should both igintion lights come on or just the one?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 11:01:11 AM by Bob Purton »

plas man

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: Villiers 9e troubles
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 11:50:02 AM »
when running either forward or reverse all lights should go out , if reverse light is on then suspect a short on the bottom bush's/holders .(Siba Dynastarters).