Author Topic: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016  (Read 8953 times)

richard

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2016, 01:04:15 PM »
Just trying to balance the point Al , if I am wrong I apologise . If you don't camper van or tent to a rally why are you so anti something ? Yes I have not had a car at a Rally for some years but I have attended many times and enjoyed them all , from my little tent 🙂
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Bob Purton

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2016, 01:09:52 PM »
When you'ved calmed down Al, perhaps you'll retract the personal abuse, which has no place here.

Meanwhile, you've lost (at least) me.  Without any additional words, what are the questions which you think Bob asked, and which you think further postings in this thread should be restricted to?

Just to put them in a nut shell, the questions were as follows.
1. Do the National rally dates get listed in the general classic car press?

2.How much is the rally pack?  [I asked Alison and was told its £6. ] Reasonable I think.

3.Will I get the same size pitch for my one man tent as a 20ft camper as the cost is the same?

Not hard questions I think and nothing to do with any aversion to campers, If I could afford one I would be attending in one too. Just seeking reassurance that the tenters are not subsidising the campervans.

No mischief or negativity intended, just curious.

DaveMiller

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2016, 03:28:46 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Bob.

I'm sure the NMCR administrators, and current rally organisers, are better able to comment, but I'll say this:

1.  I know, from previous review meetings and discussions with the administrators, that the usual suspects among motoring journals are indeed approached and asked to publish the upcoming event.  Whether they do (and some do) is up to them, of course, as the rally can hardly afford to fund formal advertising (and in which of the many magazines?)

The maths are interesting: pick, say, just 20 of the many magazines and a piddly-by-advertising-standards budget of £100 per mag.  That adds about £20 to the costs to be met from each "unit" attending.  The cost might scare some off, so assume reduced numbers and £25-30 per unit added.

This cost and the ability to update details as things become clearer (or are changed) are two excellent reasons for passing the main information via the NMCR website. 

2.  As with other details, the cost of the rally was shown on the website, as soon as it was known.

3. You didn't actually ask this as a question!  :^)
But now that you have, let's look at what the £11 "pitch fee" is for.  First off, and perhaps a surprise to many, is that it isn't the cost of the pitch!  The whole rally works on the basis that it will cost £x to run, and that the organisers need to get back in (a little more than) £x if they can.   ("More than"?  Yes: some years, poor weather or other unfortunate occurrence might lead to low attendance, and a loss being made.  This can be met, because each well-attended rally will have contributed a little extra to the funds, as back-up.)

The cost - to the rally - of the ground itself is usually a fixed sum.  There are then the costs of insurance,  toilet hire (where needed), printing and equipment, the prizes, and other expenses such as phone calls and travel.  All these are added together, and an assessment made by the organisers of how they are going to get the money back.  (Mystic Meg time: they don't know how many will attend, or what the weather will be like!)

The income they can use, to cover the total, usually comes from:
(1) sponsorship (though it's usually easier to get something like bags and pens out of companies, than actual money ...)
(2) money paid by:
- those who get a rally pack
- those who stay on the site overnight, and
- those who "day visit", usually on the Sunday.

In all these charges, people are paying "a bit towards having a rally at all".   It would be odd, I think, to suggest that tenters can be less covered by public liability insurance, or have fewer available loos, or smaller prizes, or poorer organisation, than those who come with campers.

It's a simple "taxation" system, and will have its peculiarities.  Someone bringing along three microcars on a huge trailer, for example, might need more space but is not charged any extra.  (We can just be glad to see three cars rather than one!)


 

Bob Purton

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2016, 03:56:44 PM »
Thanks Dave. That does go some way toward answering the questions.
I did mean just getting the rally date listed in publication event diaries, not adverts.

See you there!

Big Al

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2016, 06:50:05 PM »
Timely notification of media outlets results in free classification in diary and almanac listing published free by those same media outlets. The budget is thus several rounds of communications, but is clearly dependant on a an early, organised and informative publication of information. Indeed the budget is more about effort and responsibility, than it is about money. Time was this was done, Weston Parks etc. The National Microcar Rally was a known fixture in the calendar of events. For what ever reason, and I can suggest several, this is no longer true.
Secondly the venue chosen has an immediate impact on the amount of advertising. Farmer Giles field probably has no public attractions, and no publicity budget. If your venue has a publicity budget, as it is an attraction of some kind, then an early agreement in holding the event means free advertisement from your host.
The clear and obvious logic here is that the earlier you organise where and what you are doing, the more free advertising you gain access too, if someone bothers to take advantage of it. I have never understood why this simple message is so difficult to understand.

Quite clearly all the following comments on how its chosen to fund the event stem from the active pursuit of a good venue, early, and thus the free advertisement and invitation of all interested organisations up to and including the Luxemberg Zwerg Club. For having caste your net wide and long your will inevitably catch more fish.

This is before any sort of media coverage, or publicity stunts, are created. Again, with the right venue, that publicity would normally be in a presentation advertising the host as well. Good venues employ a PR executive, who will be able to help maximise this. Now the clever bit is to realise that free major media coverage is worth a lot of money to a suitable host venue. 3 TV spots on local news is worth about £50k - £75k, in advertising purchases, and we can get that free. The perfect leverage on which to negotiate some discounts or privileges from the host venue, thus gaining a cheap, or more flexible venue. That is a clear advantage to those attending and can be advertised, that word again, to potential attendees, moving some wavers to come as well.

Thus while I accept your dissertation on the way that it is chosen to work out the costings of the event, I will not comment greatly on it, for it will be clear from the above I would not be doing that way. I would say that a form of taxation based costing is a good analogy, and quite clearly exhibits a tendency for subsidisation of certain pressure groups. Since taxation is a policy, you can vote to avoid it by not paying, ergo a no show, or 'unemployment', by not bringing a car, just walking about getting under peoples feet for a day's walking entrance. (I could have done that free last year, but as always, made a point of paying my dibs to the control ten)t. For years Basil used to drive into the Cotswold Wildlife Park, pass the main gate for free, then park in the public car park and walk into the Microcar section for free. Looking back, who was the fool for bring his car on site? Me. But I believed in club ethics and that things would get better if we all pitched in, then.

Comes down to some simple questions.

1/ Who is the rally, if a rally it is, not a show, for? If its the National Microcar Show, then you have a closer template on the modern events. Rally is to suggest a principally driving based event featuring working cars. Shows are more static and suited to stuff like stationary engines.......

2/ What sort of venue does the target group, and here I am pretty certain we are talking about Microcar Drivers and Owners, want.

3/ How is that best achieved to gain the fullest of uptakes? Well I have pretty much answered that for you. Early booking. For prime venues that is probably 18 months in advance of rally day. Due to the nature and timing of National Meetings that really means two years in advance. Currently this seems to be resisted, its certainly not sought as a policy. So your hamstrung before you have started.

None of that is negative. None of that is anti campervan. But from my perspective the campervans are a pressure group, pushing for venues that suit their needs, not the needs of all microcar drivers and owners. The one lot are in principle minimalist and only need a small area to be happily active. That opens up quirky, unique venues no one else, except perhaps motorcycles, can use. The other group are the exact opposite of what they claim their interest is, So they are not minimalists by habit, and need huge fields of space, pushing up costs, to be on site. To be on the event field, the presence of large support vehicles reduces the number of venues, and tends to dominate the event - the damp Calne will for ever tickle my ribs. An event actually trashed by campervans. Micros on there own would have been no problem, and were no problem. I have no doubt this will be an unpopular view, but its not a negative one, since the campervans can be catered for with a little imagination, and a little bit of giving by those who wish to use them, by not being the centre, be all and end all, of what is going on. Get them off the rally field, and stick them somewhere out of the way, where they pay their fair share for being there. Let the microcars dominate the proceedings. Make it so they want to be there. But this all goes back to what your answers are to those three questions. If the majority compromise towards campervans then fine. But do not whinge of other people choose not to play and call you out. Yours is very clearly not the only answer.

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Big Al

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2016, 07:11:29 PM »
Just trying to balance the point Al , if I am wrong I apologise . If you don't camper van or tent to a rally why are you so anti something ? Yes I have not had a car at a Rally for some years but I have attended many times and enjoyed them all , from my little tent 🙂

Ooo eck. Sounds a bit 'Allo Allo', sir.

No, do not get me wrong. I am pleased for you that there is not a clash, and that you can go, hopefully. Sounds like Mike is going too. For all the bickering, its the melting pot of characters that flavour the event.
Its a problem to dodge Septembers big events as they come in succession. Earlier is Holidays, later the weather and temperature tail off. There will be those who always attend one of the other events in preference to the National. Its a choice for each to make. Not a lot one can do about it, sadly. I myself used to favour Beaulieu, till the ruckus with the idiots controlling access to the site. That was the year someone let off a large Roman candle through the letterbox of the site office Saturday night. I really wish it had been me!
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Bob Purton

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2016, 07:42:56 PM »
Just going over some of the things in Dave's explanation, I read it in a hurry as was just going out. Now I've digested it I agree, its a taxation with anomalies. As Al pointed out its not the only way of doing it. Another rally I attend each year does it by charging per person and not per tent or camper. I think that's a fairer way personally. Six people in a camper or large family tent for instance[that may be a slight exaggeration to demomstate a point :)] and little old me in my one man tent. Both units paying say £11. I brunt the whole thing, the other crew pay less than a couple of quid for the same facilities. Levy per person is fairer in my view.

Second minor point, it was said that the cost of the rally was on the website. The rally pack cost was not and still isnt.

The rally dates can be added to classic vehicle publication event diaries for free and does not have to include all the details, only the date and contact details ie the website. Once they have the website they can check themselves for details and any changes. the fact that there may be changes is not alone a legitimate reason for not publicising the rally in the classic press.

Anyway, these observations are by no means complains. The committee like to do things to a historical format and to a large extent it works. No harm in considering alternative ideas from time to time though.
 

super-se7en (Malc Dudley)

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2016, 09:36:47 PM »
The best way to implement these suggestions is to volunteer to do the next national and afterwards listen to the comments.
I guarantee there would be a new set of complaints.
Its a poison chalice. 

DaveMiller

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2016, 09:56:23 PM »

Second minor point, it was said that the cost of the rally was on the website. The rally pack cost was not and still isnt.


Ah, the mysteries of the interweb. It's certainly there when I look!

richard

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2016, 10:21:03 PM »
Altogether too much whingeing , do some of you enjoy this hobby at all ? 😀 Jeez !
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Grant Kearney

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2016, 10:33:56 PM »
Spot on Malcolm, but you are a man of words and action.  Life would be so much more pleasant if more were to adopt your proactive approach and take on the National and put your own unique 'twist' to it.  I don't recall any complainants about last years rally, free food, free ale and much more but prior to the rally as is the case every year there were plenty words of wisdom from those who do much talking and little else. Remember, talk is cheap.

I will try and attempt to answer a few of the questions, however, folding and stapling the Rally programme is much more important this evening.
Bob, the costs of the rally pack/entry fee and autojumble/club stand pitch are on the website, try refreshing your browser as your PC may be using a 'cashed' version.  This was added to the website earlier in the week when it was brought to my attention on here that it was missing, sorry about that. 

For several years now, Grenville Taylor has dealt with the rally publicity and has had much success getting some brilliant coverage in the large glossy magazines.  He has also become dis-heartened though when many don't even include details in their 'diary' of events.  Each year, it very much 'hit and miss' as you are not paying for premium advertising.  We do however, always get coverage from two very well known motoring journalists who attend the NMCR each year.  Grenville also has made contact with many of the clubs on the fringes of the microcar scene to further boost numbers.  Notable success have been the Fiat 500 club, Club 126 and the Carver owners.  DKW, Trabant, Reliant, Citroen specials, Lomax and many more have been invited year after year with little success.  I know Al continues to make this valid point about pre publicity but what else can be done ??.  Grenville will smile when he reads this post as he has done all he can do to improve the situation.  This years pre publicity has had much focus in the local Shropshire area with a good number of HTC members participating at shows drumming up interest.

With regards to the charging per pitch vs per person, the answer is very simple, the campsite that we are using charges per pitch therefore this years organisers are doing the same. Which ever system is used there will be someone who feels disadvantaged.  Personally, the costs of a pitch are insignificant in comparison to the costs of travel to and from the rally.  Every year there are always a small number of people who refuse to pay the fees and cause the organisers an unpleasant situation just at the most stressful point of the rally.  The same people will then be seen on the rally field later in the day having 'sneaked' in. 

Perhaps we can try and return to a more positive 'spin' and get behind this years organiser who has taken on the rally almost single handed.  SHE is doing a great job and the rally will be brilliant regardless of the number of motorhome and the size of the pitches.  People and cars are far more important than all this trivia.

Finally, Al last attended an NMCR with a microcar (Honda Z which was trailered behind his Volkswagen LT van) in 1999 when the MEC organised it at Toddington.  Correct me Al if I am wrong  ;)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 10:41:15 PM by scootacar »

richard

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2016, 11:00:21 PM »
A brief aside if I might . The rally sight owner/ supervisor appears to be a lady named Lynne , and what a great girl she is . I cannot make the rally and I had parts to pass on to attendees from disparate parts of the U.K. . I popped in a couple of months ago and asked could I leave these trim parts with her nearer the date . Lynne was so obliging ! I phoned again last week and she said yes I am expecting you I have a note in the diary !
This Thursday I actually phoned her to say that the swap was being done elsewhere and we would not need her help , but she's a cracker and I hope all goes well this year and if she has anything to do with it it will go swimmingly !
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richard

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2016, 11:02:01 PM »
Oops sorry Scootacar - here here !
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

AndyL

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 11:03:30 PM »
My goodness some of you lot are difficult to please!

People are doing this voluntarily for pities sake.

Haven't been to a micro car rally since 1993, but costs don't seem to be hugely higher than they were back then, only my income has almost trebled since then, so it looks like a bit of a bargain from where I'm standing.
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Big Al

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Re: NATIONAL MICROCAR RALLY 2016
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 11:32:24 PM »
That was the last time I helped organise the event. I opened and closed the road run. A route I organised and previously mapped out complete with guess what is in the bag feelies to add to the treasure hunt. Indeed there was a last minute change due to the heavy rainfall so as to allow cars to not be forced to take a ford that might have been deeper than was deemed fun. I had the evening off then I stood the late night gate duty, 12.00 till 4.00, to catch those attempting to sneak in without paying. and to monitor the site should anything occur.  I had one of the biggest autojumble stands I have had at a National. I helped resolve two failed cars on site and got one home. Yes, I was at Toddington, doing what I used to do, behind the scenes, because I enjoyed doing it. That is slightly more than arriving with a van and a Honda Z. In fact I had a second car there on loan to a mate. The Honda alone covered some 180 miles that weekend, I think. I was fagged out at the end of it, which was Tuesday midday for me.
We later had a meeting and it was pretty clear to us that the demograph of those attending had changed since Weston Park, where we had filming going on. There was more argument and petulance from people attending. I can still recall the cases, but will not go into them. The turn out was not as we had hoped. There was a marked problem with cars not being used. It was agreed that it was as if those who were static wanted a different event to those that drove, who had become a minority. We preferred active participation, to inactive participation That was the last event that that group of organisers chose to do, as we felt our efforts had not been rewarded with a good response. None the less I think we made a handsome donation to the Rally funds.
I have driven classic cars to later Nationals, I have no idea if they were included in the event, all I know was I was enjoying what I was doing.  The events drifted off into places I did not care to go, clashes with Beaulieu and my own life became more complicated as my responsibilities to my family grew whether it be here or in France.
I do remember driving both an Austin Healey, and the following day, Harry the Schmitt to Quainton, where I was mugged for some £20 plus to drive in and park my Messerschmitt. If it had not been for friends being with me, I would have turned around and driven straight back home again. This rip off was apparently due to the prior two events after Toddington loosing a lot of money. I felt very burned by that and the following years events continued to frequent uninspiring locations. Seem to recall a Scootacar at Southwell I bought on the way there. I parked in the road for the flooded Calne, as I saw no reason not to with out of control support vehicles lurching all about over the place.
What is the point you are trying to make? 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 11:37:45 PM by Big Al »
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