Author Topic: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de  (Read 1145 times)

Oceanix

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« on: November 14, 2016, 10:05:18 PM »

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 08:15:40 AM »
The post Brexit British car industry making its mark as an important exporter to Germany, there, coming in.  :(  Sadly cannot read enough German to work out the description, so I wonder what the back story is.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

DaveMiller

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 11:12:37 AM »
Sadly cannot read enough German to work out the description, so I wonder what the back story is.

Good old Google Translate comes up with this:

I am selling one of my two Peel P50. To this day, he is the smallest production car in the world and one of the most striking cars ever in the "Gunniess Book of Records", which generates great attention. This peel comes from the jubilee edition for the 50th birthday of Peel. It was once again re-issued by the original manufacturer Peel Engineering according to original plans and limited to 50 pieces. I had the opportunity to acquire two of the coveted vehicles through personal contacts.

This vehicle was already guest in the ZDF TV garden, with a SWR reportage, VOX automobile, 5 against Jauch etc.

The car is supervised by my oldtimerspezialisten and rarely on special occasions drove. He drives perfectly, the technology is fault-free and he is overall in a very good condition. This vehicle is ideal for collectors as a long-term investment or for companies looking for a show car with the best possible eye-catcher / advertising effect.

The special feature: It has a valid British approval over the manufacturer, may thus On German roads.

The purchase price includes all documents such as admission, 2 keys and a mini-lift (for motorcycles). Delivery within 3 working days after auction ends in Düsseldorf. Shipping options by forwarding agent I can request, if desired, full payment by transfer in advance. When picking up: Payment in advance by transfer 10%, then 90% in cash when picking up and handing over in Düsseldorf.

This is a private sale without VAT. Warranty or redemption is not offered as usual for private car sales.

For questions please call. Have fun with this very special piece of automotive history!

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 11:40:43 AM »
Am I being dumb in not knowing what that is about? A fiftieth jubilee run of 50 cars made? The original Peel Engineering? Are either of those statements true? I think not. That would make this advert a deception.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Jean

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
    • www.rumcars.org
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 07:01:18 PM »
I agree and it should be called into question.  Jean
Jean
Register of Unusual Microcars

Oceanix

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 07:25:36 PM »
Well, there was a certain hype here regarding this
50yr / 50 model series here on various events / media.

Anyhow, quite a few €€€s...

Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1222
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 02:07:28 AM »
The "original Peel Engineering" is correct if you consider the name as the subject in question rather than a factory. These cars are copies of a well known design made by a company that owns the rights to represent themselves as Peel Engineering. As there is and only ever has been one Peel Engineering, rather than this being one of several Peel Engineerings, one of whom briefly made cars, in this very narrow context it can claim to be the original. Whether or not that is important depends on what it is you're trying to sell and to whom.

If it was claiming to be an original Peel P50, then it would be quite different, but these cars are sold as new Peel P50s which they are, and an owner can describe it as proper Peel P50 because technically it is. Whereas anyone else who makes a car that looks like this even if it is an absolutely exact reproduction of a P50 that came off Peel Engineerings Isle of Man production line in the sixties, is making a replica.

These new cars are really only ever going to be toys, and as there aren't many of the original ones around to buy, this company is really selling an idea. Getting yourself a proper Peel P50 as opposed to a replica is for some people the most important factor and I'm guessing if they've actually sold even close to 50 of them, Peel Engineering probably know their market. It's exactly the same motivation that makes some people happy to pay £300 for a pair of jeans that are materially identical to a pair that they could buy for a fifth of that. They don't want a copy, they want the genuine article.
Malcolm
Bond Mk D - "The Bond Minicar solves your problem"
Nobel 200 - "Almost as cheap as breathing!"

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 09:39:25 AM »
Which is the pertinent argument, to a point.

Peel Engineering, the original, was an Isle of Man based business. From what I can understand it chose neither to protect its name, nor its product. Therefore another company could be created called Peel Engineering. It was created, and is based in the UK. Peel Engineering IOM was then restored to existence to prevent IOM production, and it was hoped protect the original run of cars. The latter it has mostly failed to do, as the design was not protected consistently. Anyone can make the design, until, or unless, a court action says otherwise. The new Peel Engineering has also failed to protect its product from copy. At least I do not believe they have done so, as at least two other people have semi productionised examples of a generic vehicle called a Peel 50. To put it another way, the cat is out of the bag.

So what is an 'original' 'Peel Engineering' 'P50'. It is anything made be anyone calling themselves legally Peel Engineering that they choose to call a P50. As a vehicle it could actually be a re-badged Kia. But the concept / design is the selling point so we accept that it will used the smallest production car tag to sell. As I understand it, anyone can make a Peel 50. No one owns the design. It just cannot be an original P50. Indeed P50 is not a unique car name. There is an East German P50, for instance, and rather nice it is to.

So as I see it, there is nothing stopping me going to India and setting up Peel Engineering (India) and using local resources to make an Indian market based Peel 50 and selling 500 of them as 'original Peels' at a very keen price, flooding the market, and yet still taking a pretty good profit out of the deal. No not using elephants! Its all in the wording of the advertisement and marketing, as I cannot claim they are of the original run of IOM Peels. But if I make a very accurate production run, as well as modern production versions, I can kill both markets stone dead as an investment. This is the danger of replicas, copies and so on, although I am stating an unlikely case. Yet look what happened with AC Cobras (though here the real ones bask in some glory)

What has to happen is that, as with Cobras and other rare valuable cars, there needs to be a an accessible register of the genuine cars, those made from left over bits of genuine cars later, and issued with continuation chassis numbers , and then, if anyone cares, to the after market versions. But only Peel Engineering IOM, I suggest, can legitimately make continuation production for while the design is open, the fact of where, and that  the entity that made the originals, still exists, is not, unless someone obtained a right to make them. I would suggest Andy Carter might be the only person who approaches that position, I understand he has owned the rights to the Peel Viking. Done, this becomes a resource for agents and dealers selling, and the buyers, to obtain the known history of each car coming up for sale, no excuses. That might require a consultation fee, but nobody need claim ignorance in defence of a bad purchase, as the records would be available to anyone. The problem the interrogator has of the register is to ask the correct question. For that is the method most of these entities use to protect the information from abuse, and further fakery. They answer only specific questions, until certainty that the car is the correct one. Even then some detail would have to be held back, I suspect. But that is good enough to flush out any non original cars.

So check that eBay wording again. Tricky.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Oceanix

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 10:21:21 PM »

Okay, obviously first the car was hyped in various TV Shows
ZDF TV garden, with a SWR reportage, VOX automobile, 5 against Jauch etc.
and now he sells the legend, he previously created...

Interesting... Let me know when the Indian version is ready to sell...  :o
How much was a tata nano? 999 GBP?


Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1222
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2016, 01:21:33 AM »
I think the P50 occupies a unique position at the moment in that it's a very distinctive car that thanks (mainly) to Top Gear enjoys a worldwide celebrity status. Ask around and while many people have never heard of a microcar or even a bubble car, they will know of the P50. The fact that some P50s have been auctioned for huge amounts of money again adds futher to their mystique and attraction.
 
Are there people who would part with the kind of money being asked for here who would think they would be buying one of the 1960s cars made on the Isle Of Man or an exact replica, I really don't know, but I very much doubt it , and while it might irritate us, personally without any German language ability over and above a computer translation, I'd be wary of saying the advert is any deliberate attempt at deception. Although no manufacturing date is mentioned, re-issue is a big clue, and while you can argue about the accuracy of the running gear, it looks enough like a 1960s P50 to satisfy all but us niggling enthusiasts that its based on "original plans". Value is of course down to whoever wants to buy the thing, but I think most people including us niggling enthusiasts would take one look at this cars price and say Limited Edition or not, you're having a laugh mate.
Taking up Al's point, if the principle cachet of the P50 was its origins, its performance or its engineering, rather than its oddness, its curiosity and most significant that "Worlds Smallest Production car" tag, then the issue of Isle of Man production would perhaps be more critical. Some really would see that as a more "genuine" article worthy of a further premium, but I'm surprised things haven't already gone the other way and that nobody has been actively commissioning and offering a cheap Chinese copy to meet what seems to be a clear and ongoing demand.
I'd conclude by stating that I also agree with the point that the Peel Register and the Rumcars Register should have a degree of accessibility to help protect the unwary against fraud and cloning, such information can only help assure and enhance the status of the few original cars. Another reason why any owners out there should value and recognise it's importance.

Malcolm
Bond Mk D - "The Bond Minicar solves your problem"
Nobel 200 - "Almost as cheap as breathing!"

Rob Dobie

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 782
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2016, 07:15:44 PM »
My advert 40 years ago went something like this.

Two Peel P50s for sale. Red one running and on the road, £250. Blue one for restoration, £40.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 11:42:57 PM by Rob Dobie »
Ain't got nuffink now except memories.

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 08:02:44 AM »
40 years ago, Rob, the 'Original plan' jubilee version did not exist. I am not convinced they do now! Indeed buster boy might have the only ones.

So you were a profiteering pinko asking at least a £1 more than the car was worth, hype, rant, fanargg....

On reflection I think he is referring to the 50 Jubilee clips holding it all together, in the current advert, but I could be wrong.  ;D
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1222
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2016, 10:34:30 AM »
Further on the subject of re-incarnated manufacturers making new old cars "exactly" to original plans.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/97735/first-new-original-jaguar-xkss-d-type-revealed-in-la
Malcolm
Bond Mk D - "The Bond Minicar solves your problem"
Nobel 200 - "Almost as cheap as breathing!"

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2016, 11:28:01 AM »
The key word is continuation model. If you own the undisputed rights to that car, then you can make them anytime you like. The problem with the Peel is neither the name Peel Engineering, nor the Peel design, is an exclusive brand name, or design. So it cannot ever be a continuation model. It can only ever be a replica, which may, or may not, be made to the original design. A jubilee production of a copy is fine, but they are not continuation models, nor are they genuine Peels in the historic sense of the word. Without looking at the German script, in German, can it be judged if there is an untruth in the description. Equally their law might be slightly different to ours on such a thing, as it is interpretation, as much as law.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1194
Re: Expensive Peel on Ebay.de
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2016, 11:30:54 AM »
And from the good old Replicar Curser by Alan Hatswell:-

http://www.replicar.co.uk/about-replicar.html