Author Topic: Ligier for Sale  (Read 1183 times)

ejbs

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Ligier for Sale
« on: November 23, 2017, 04:11:01 PM »
This example was imported from South of France a few years ago and is reported to have absolutely no structural rust at all although there are some age-related bumps and scratches. In 2010, this vehicle was prepared for the road with brand new brake cylinders, steering gaiters etc as well as adapted for potential UK registration and use with the addition of the required dipping headlamps, mirrors and screen washers. The engine starts and runs and the automatic transmission works, driving in both forward and reverse. Totally complete apart from one plastic rear wheel arch spat, it has been in dry storage for the last two years. The paperwork includes a letter from Ligier with vehicle numbers etc, a UK MoT test certificate from 2010, French papers and numerous bills.

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2017-11-25/cars/ref-7-1980-ligier-js4/

This is to offered at auction (without reserve) this Saturday on the 25th November, 2017. For further information, please contact Historics on 01753 639170.

www.historics.co.uk

steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 11:17:29 AM »
Seemed nice enough, especially as it was the better looking 4 headlight model instead of the still good looking JS8 that followed it in production.
Sold for 2,240 GBP also seemed fair enough considering the overall condition.
As  the ad said, no structural rust, but I do see the lower door corners have begun to stain through from the devil's worm starting to feed there.
 They are well engineered , but made of very thin metal, so can literally be dented with a vigorous pressing of one's thumb.  So finding one undented is unlikely.
The reason for the thinness of the metal was to try to keep the wieght down, as that pretty, but very large green house comes at the expense of greater wieght.  The measure was but partly successful, as these cars are a bit over wieght for their 49cc engines. 
This produces the irony of well engineered, independently suspended product of a Formula One manufacturer, that was one of the slowest in top speed for the entire Sans Permis class.
I've heard that 20 mph is about all that they are good for.

Pity, all that excellent engineering not being propelled to more worthy limits.
I've often wondered how easy it might be to fit one of the more modern two cylinder 22 h.p. units under the seat and just run the belt from that unit's infinitely variable trans to the existent drive pulley on the JS4 , or JS8, as the case could be.
Steve Fisk- are you reading this?
Could be an economical and exciting reconversion for the 13 converted to electric JS8's that sold so cheaply a couple of years ago.  Especially when one considers that the superiorly powerful power plants that came in the later model Sans Permis cars can be had quite cheaply.  I've seen them advertised for just a couple hundred pounds.  Probably because the cars that they came in would be worth so little compared to the cost of repair to their delicate bodies in the event of even a minor collision, or visit from the tin worm, and the engines being of such compact nature that many of them can be so easily stowed in a relatively small space.

Plastic wheel arches are also fragile, hence often found to be missing.
I would sure appreciate it if someone  were to offer  repros, or at least allow a mold to be made so that they could be properly cast in glass fiber.  I need a set of four.  Hopefully all four are cast identically, so only one spat would need to be borrowed for service.
Kind of surprised if there isn't any one in a Ligier club somewhere in France who hasn't yet taken up this enterprise, as between the two models that appear  to have utilized them, I believe that there were more than 10,000 cars made.   So probably thousands of spats needed  by now.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM by steven mandell »

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
I think the white car once belonged to a chap I was talking to a few years ago.  I think he has sadly passed away.
He had converted the front lights to motorcycle units suitable for driving on the proper side of the road.

At that time he had also been working on one with a diesel engine.

I agree that the steel is very thin and the suspension, brakes and steering suitable for a more powerful lump as found in later models.
I have never had my one out on the road but on my private drive it was appallingly slow. 
I haven't tried to improve the engine but it has the mobylette VO14 (99Z)  secondary primary compression piston and reed valve set-up which may need attention.

A different engine with a bit more oomph would be very good.  I have an air cooled twin that might fit :)  :)


steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 01:47:57 PM »
Seems that Barry has always got me beat with a cleaner example of what I have to settle for.
Might have something to do with him being about 5,000 miles closer to their source than myself in Los Angeles, or some other unknown investigatory capability.
As far as an engine upgrade goes, I have an opportunity to finally one up him, as just a few moments ago I recieved notification that the Villiers 3T 324 cc 2 stroke dual blower motor that Malcolm Dudley has been kind enough to sell me is to be picked up in a couple days time by the shipper.
Don't yet know the comparative h.p. to your 2T 250 cc version, do you?

However despite the fact that I'd love to have the use of the manually shifted 4 speed trans-  I must admit that I do not intend to swap this unit into my JS4.  Reason being that besides it being nationality and period incorrect, the shift linkage would require just enough fabrication to forestall the project behind my couple dozen others backlogged, whereas a more modern, but still compact water cooled 505cc gas twin, like those found in a 2007 Microcar MC 7, would have 21 h.p. instead of the just 3 h.p. that it came with.
700% increase in power!!, and looks like still compact enough to fit in the stock mid engine nacelle, radiator and all, and no shift linkage needed, as you just connect to the rear drive pully via a belt!
Might do with an under belly scoop located for more airflow to the radiator.
The MC 7 is a heavier car and tops out at a hefty 72 m.p.h., which is faster than I'd want to go in a JS 4.
So maybe leaving the stock, but wide 8" tires on it instead of the skinny 14 inchers that come on the MC 7 would be a wise choice for avoiding these speeds while enjoying even quicker acceleration.

I just spent about an hour getting very confusing information about various Ligier powerplants.
Is the listing of a JS 6 model as having a 50 cc 4 stroke motor putting out a full 9 h.p. and propelling this car to a 47 m.p.h. top speed possibly correct?   If so it could be a an easier route to adequate performance.
I also saw the popular 505 cc Lombardi diesel version listed as only producing 5 h.p., albeit rewarded with 11 ft lbs of torque.
I fear somthing is rotten in France with all these very diverse claims of horsepower.  The website that I was utlizing didn't mention the existence of a JS 8 model.

Can anyone shed some real knowledge re the above?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:52:46 PM by steven mandell »

steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 10:35:16 AM »
Finally got a good look at my JS4's engine under the driver's side seat panel.
The spark plug is out, so reassuredly the piston can be seen to rise and fall whilst twisting the driver clutch mounted to the engine.
However, I see no carburetor attached to the engine or lying about anywhere else in the car!
Anybody know which carburetor that they came with, and where I can obtain a suitable replacement economically?

It looks to have been mounted via a compression flange surrounding the machined tubular extremity of the intake manifold, so probably more than just the stock carb could be successfully mounted.
Suggestions?

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 10:52:52 AM »
Hope you had a good Christmas break.
As you know Steven, I cannot access my car easily.
See the photo of my carb.

I bought some Gurtner  carbs for sale as part of my Moped interest.
I have some new AD13 carbs which I think might be either very similar or the exact carb.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222750614694?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

I think there should be a reed valve block between the carb and barrel inlet.  These are obtainable from eBay or via Mobylette suppliers.  AV10 model Mobylette I think.


steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 07:31:16 AM »
Wow!
Super Barry to the rescue again.
I will be very happy to buy one if your carbs on E Bay, but know nothing of Reed valves.
How do I check to see if I have or need one?

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 11:14:28 AM »
Carb - we can sort-out  outside of eBay but I will have to check postage costs.  Need an address.

If your barrel has a really big inlet hole where the carb goes, you probably need a reed valve unit.  Four screws hold it on sandwiched between the barrel and inlet manifold.
I assume your motor has a second (Primary induction) piston underneath the engine and opposite to the main / usual piston?

The ordinary AV10 mobylete motor has the reed valve but no primary induction piston arrangement.
The VO 14 (99Z) engine has the reed valve and the primary induction piston (as per my jpg earlier).

I am pretty sure you will need a reed valve - here is an example but not necessarily the right one.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reed-valve-POLINI-for-MBK-AV-10/292357467430?epid=2101441114&hash=item4411dced26:g:U64AAOSwAaJaD4oj

steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 12:25:18 PM »
My motor looks identical to yours.
I see the sandwich block still intact between the cylinder and intake manifold on mine, so I hope that this means that I still have my Reed valve.
Don't know anything about a secondary piston below the regular piston, but then again I don't have X Ray vision either.
Looking around on the internet, I seem to have noticed that AV 10 engines route their carburetors 90 degrees to the plane of the drive pulleys.  So I believe that we both have AV 7 motors.

I also see different carbs advertised as Superior to the Gurtner, such as Del Orto, for not much more money.
Another claimed advantage of the alternate carbs is increased tunability.
This could be handy if upgrading to either an Air Seal 70 cc, or  74 cc kit.
Do you know anything about how well these conversions work out?
Could one of them be a very cost effective way of upping the power we both crave for the little underpowered beasties?
Surely a near 50% increase in displacement has got to have a significant effect.
I wonder why Air Seal would bother to offer two different kits with just a 3 cc difference (the 74 cc is revealed to be actually only about 73 cc) in displacement.
There must be a hidden card under the table.

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 03:09:53 PM »
Looks like you might have a two stud manifold bolted through a four stud reed valve.  The barrel may be wrong.  The engine may be wrong.  Either that or a four stud reed valve has been fitted to a two stud manuifold and barrel.  It may or may not not have an AD13 carb - swapped at some point.

I think that my Super  Comtesse has a two stud set up on a 99z engine with reed valve and compression piston.
I have some photos of some spare parts that came with the Super Comtesse.
Yiu can see how big the cooling fins are compared to a normal moped (moped head shown).  All tuning kits will be designed for mopeds with the engine exposed to lots of cooling air.

You need to seek the advice of a mobylette expert.

http://mobylette.proboards.com

As far as I know the AV10 engine is the most sort after and tunable with all sorts of goodies available to boost power.
The VO 14 (99Z) engine is already powerful but I was told that it is very difficult to tune as the primary compression piston complicates things.

It would be interesting to know the diameter of your inlet manifold.  The 99z engine uses a 13mm carb (just over 1/2" to you :)  :).

You can easily recognise if it has the lower piston because there is a big bulge in the lower crank case.

People do tune moby engines and often fit Delortos up to 19mm but you are on your own with that project.  I can't help.
Just as important as the carb will be a special high compression 'squish' head and some high octane fuel mix.

steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2017, 01:04:43 PM »
I spent a few more hours trying to find a way to figure out which engine / parts if engines that I have.
One local expert said that whatever it is, it never made it to the U.S., but I am not sure if the shrouding threw him off
At this time it seems most likely to be AV7  based, as the AV 10 did not come out until the nineties.
Too bad I don't have an engine number or reference chart yet.
It could also be helpful if I could see a picture of the bottom of a known  engine type for reference, as the rest of the engine is shrouded from view.

Does the 13 mm size of the intake that you mentioned refer to our the i.d., or the o.d. of the intake pipe?
With the help of yourself and one or two others , I believe that we will solve the mystery of what  lies shrouded in a few more days, and then be on a more solid foundation as to what ought to be considered next.

Too bad  Jonathan no longer visits this site, as he is quite the expert on French mopeds by now.
May try to find a way to contact him also.

steven mandell

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2017, 07:34:55 PM »
 In the immortal words of the late Gomer Pyle...Suprise, suprise, suprise!
I just looked at the rear to front view of the engine for the first time on my laptop instead of my cell phone, and quickly realized that it is not a 4 bolt Port being covered by a two bolt intake manifold.
It is instead merely a gasket for a 4 bolt manifold sandwiched between 2 bolt  pieces.
Makes more sense now, because with all that oil fume condensate of grease coating everything, it really did not seem likely to me that a cinder swap out had occurred.

So probably a bone stock, if not a bit tired motor.
So at least I think that we now know what I've got to work with here.

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2017, 09:57:38 AM »
I spent a few more hours trying to find a way to figure out which engine / parts if engines that I have.
One local expert said that whatever it is, it never made it to the U.S., but I am not sure if the shrouding threw him off
At this time it seems most likely to be AV7  based, as the AV 10 did not come out until the nineties.
Too bad I don't have an engine number or reference chart yet.
It could also be helpful if I could see a picture of the bottom of a known  engine type for reference, as the rest of the engine is shrouded from view.

Does the 13 mm size of the intake that you mentioned refer to our the i.d., or the o.d. of the intake pipe?
With the help of yourself and one or two others , I believe that we will solve the mystery of what  lies shrouded in a few more days, and then be on a more solid foundation as to what ought to be considered next.

Too bad  Jonathan no longer visits this site, as he is quite the expert on French mopeds by now.
May try to find a way to contact him also.

13mm is the inlet size.  the air hole trough the carb.
I doubt it is an AV7.  JS4 was fitted with a VO 14 (99Z) engine.

AV7
http://www.1977mopeds.com/product-p/774910.htm

AV10
http://www.1977mopeds.com/Motobecane-AV10-Crate-Motor-p/70289.htm

99Z
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTOBECANE-SPECIALE-99Z-SP-SP-99-Z-MOTEUR-ENGINE-/141612675275





Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2017, 10:01:50 AM »
In the immortal words of the late Gomer Pyle...Suprise, suprise, suprise!
I just looked at the rear to front view of the engine for the first time on my laptop instead of my cell phone, and quickly realized that it is not a 4 bolt Port being covered by a two bolt intake manifold.
It is instead merely a gasket for a 4 bolt manifold sandwiched between 2 bolt  pieces.
Makes more sense now, because with all that oil fume condensate of grease coating everything, it really did not seem likely to me that a cinder swap out had occurred.

So probably a bone stock, if not a bit tired motor.
So at least I think that we now know what I've got to work with here.

Are you sure that is a gasket and not a four bolt Reed valve.
If it is a gasket, where is the reed valve housing?  Is there a reed valve in there?  A couple of bolts to be unscrewed to find out.  Without a reed valve it wont work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:10:07 AM by Barry »

Barry

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Re: Ligier for Sale
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2017, 10:06:59 AM »
This clip shows a similar manifold set-up to yours Steven.  Looks like a Del Orto carb.
How is your French?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMpjdNHm4-E

Plenty of video and info on the 99Z engine.  Have a look at the underside to see if that round cap is there for the second piston.  At least you will then know what you are dealing with.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=99z+engine

If you are on Facebook Steven, try this group for advice.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1265609453536484/
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 12:36:17 PM by Barry »