RUMCars Forum
General Category => Microcar News => Topic started by: Trident on May 14, 2010, 10:32:52 PM
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Watch out for Jeremy Clarkson driving a red Isetta reg, XWV 753
Apparently he almost rolls it. ( It is a RH drive model with the engine and driver on the same side - originally these cars had a heavy cast iron weight on the left hand side to compensate the poor weight distribution, but many owners took this out as it slowed the car down)
Wonder if Isetta prices will rise as a result.
To be screened on BBC2 in July.
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He also rolls a Reliant on it's side.
I wonder if Reliant prices will fall as a result.
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So we take our prices from a guy who cannot drive very well and destroys cars for a very good living. It is a strange world where image is all and thinking for yourself really rather unfashionable. Sorry I will attempt to fit my round body back in my square box.
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they are doing a feature on 3 wheelers,around 20 friends of mine went up to sheffield for filming where clarkson interviewed them about their cars.there are other details but im sworn to secrecy,there is also a morgan 3 wheeler featured.If you look at the pics theyve fitted a massive front wheel in order to make it tip.
As with most things they do its faked.apparently clarkson asked a friend of mine "how do you keep these on three wheels"to which the reply was "stop driving like a tit!"
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The answer to three wheeler stability is to point out that several of the fastest cars in the world are - three wheelers. They do not fall over and will pee all over a Ferrangano Crevice 1071/2 K or whatever the lastest supercar crapper is flavour of the month. Take speed out of the equation therefore and with good design three wheelers work perfectly. No doubt this stability thing is to be perpetuated by TG. The clincher then is to point out that the Morgans were banned from Brooklands in the end for being to fast and upsetting the Bentleys after a lady took the lap record in one! As usual the guys with the big expensive toys and minimal skill started crying so the small guy gets chucked out. Sounds so familiar doesn't it.
I wish I could get paid a fortune for talking bollocks, goodness knows I have had enough practice! Like all these progs it does the subject matter it is based on a dis service yet claims immunity by being 'entertainment'. Sadly the bulk of the audience believe every word of it and it simply is not acceptable to wash ones hands of the effects. I have been on TV myself several times and it is a pact with the devil. I will only cooperate now if I have direct input into content. Generally some flat brain is in charge with a pre conceived plan, often featuring some impossibility since they have no idea of the topic they are filming, and I pass as I an no longer interested in 'important' people who are stupid and do not listen. Marcus could give us loads of examples I do not doubt. I seem to recall trials of a weird steam engine and a director with no patience as just one.
So I will await the great TG trike item with some trepidation.
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Of course prices wont be effected! Since when did microcar owners take any notice of that idiot! As for Reliant prices, I thought they were for nothing anyway. I said it to the leader of the G-wiz club and now to you guys, Dont lend these people your cars, it does nothing for the microcar movement! Now for years every time we stop at lights or at a filling station we will get the naive public come over and say those things tip over and are dangerous and you will be justifying yourself owning one, all because you wanted to get your cars on the telly!
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reliant prices have been steadily rising over the last few years,the very last models are still £4000-6000 at a dealers.
I couldnt get a decent roadworthy kitten for much less than £1000 now,and most good rialtos are fetching £700 upwards.
Although all these are still very cheap compared to micro prices,i personally hope they never reach those sort of heights,as they will be out of reach of the genuine enthusiasts.
What im more concerned about is copycat behaviour and everyone having their reliant turned over in the street.This is already common,but his will just make it worse.Im certainly glad i dont own my metallic red mk2 robin anymore,as it was the same as the one he rolled.
we get people laugh,vandalise,cut us up,set fire to our cars anyway,but we keep driving them because we love them and dont care.Ive lost count of the amount of people who have told me they tip over,only do 20mph,cant go on motorways,dont have reverse gear,have a bike engine in it etc etc :-\
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Copycat behaviour? Dont you mean copykitty behaviour? :D :D I rest my case, all the afore mentioned things will now be worst as a result of TG and the gangs participation, still I guess if no one loaned the cars they would have gone out and bought some to wreck anyway, certainly reliants as they are still so cheap. The saying "any publicity is good publicity" is a fundamental falshood.
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Top Gear were going ahead with it anyway,and had already bought around 5 cars themselves,so if my mates with their cars can attempt to show a positive side then it can only be good.
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Lets hope so. Did you and the pals get a chance to speak on camera then?
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i wasnt there,apparently they wanted northerners for some reason,but yes my friends were interviewed and shown round the cars.
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This is beginning to sound all to familiar. Northerners with flat hats and whippets driving Rollie's (actually the original joke was Bond Minicars but that would be to difficult for the Telly) and being made to look thick and stupid for the entertainment of the brain dead the world over. This is they way they work. Find someone desperate enough to be on TV and make fools of them. I would not play so ended on on the cutting room floor save for three appearances. After all Saturday evening is basically made up of this as prime time TV. It is not looking good is it?
Justify myself? No need as I walk my own path with the bye or leave of no one. Abuse, ignore it or rip into their equally useless Turdo GT, touching without permission results in a chinning. Simple rules and it has served well for 30 years and I have respect for being a successful eccentric where I live. I do not have to lock my cars. Even managed to sort the guy out who nicked a car from me 300 miles away. Just have the aura of someone who does not give a toss and they tend to leave you alone. I would far rather that than be accepted by the sort of numb nuts that think smashing stuff up is clever or ignorance fashionable. I rather thought the Microcar owner accepted this strategy, to some extent, as part of the deal in being different. I just manage to be a bit extreme because I can get away with it. Lets face it being different is difficult and getting more so but that means it is ever more worth while.
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Hi Al,
Yep Its Mine I've owned Her for 30years and I'm the 2nd owner, the first turned Her into a Chicken Shed!!!!!! XWV 753 Ferrari Red Colour 155 same as my Schmitt
Jon Hunt
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All good practice for the Bamby filming no doubt.
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I rarely watch TG ( ...how often can anyone watch cars almost no-one can afford driving at high speed around a circuit?) but tonight I probably will!
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So will I though I fear it will just be curlyperm turning over three wheelers.
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I feel a sense of unease, but will keep an open mind....
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Trident is wrong on both counts! I think he is confusing me with P50, Firstly I just have a high forehead and a wide parting and secondly my Isetta is not a BMW, it was made by Isetta of Great Britain, there is a difference! He must be getting his "facts" from TopGear!
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No Isetta on TG, a Morgan F (4 cylinder enclosed engine) and a Reliant being repeatedly toppled and crashed, quite funny really, if you like wanton destruction.
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By EckyyyThump!!! That were funny!! :D
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I must admit the bit when the A Team music started and immediately ended as he drove the front wheel into the inspection pit made loud out loud.
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Such a film could only have been made after the end of Reliant production. During, it would have been good grounds for a libel case which I feel Reliant would win hands down. Admitidly I found the basic houmour funny, but for the subject itself, I am deeply saddened. The Reliant always desrved objectivity, but it was never allowed to have it, & this short ten minites has suerly destroyed any dignity the Reliant Company was allowed to have in recent years. Sadly, it seems none are left who care anymore. Those Reliant owners featured are not worthey of my respect. If they came from either the ROC or R£W or indeed both, then my feelings that this is no longer a fit country for Reliant's to live in are fully justified & those two organisations are just as guilty as Clarkson, Top Gear et al.
Top Gear asked if I would provide my Bamby for filming at Leeds Castle, Kent, on July 16th. I was more or less adimant not to supply until a couple of folk said much to sway my possible opnion just for a short while, but, my answer now as ever it will be, is an unflinching NO!
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I thought it was quite amusing.
One wheel at the front is a recipe for death when an extreme manouver is possibly required...!
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I thought the three pin plug stood up to all those rolls surprisingly well. Obviously they were just "roll and slide" accidents rather than impact collisions. JC was obviously turn suddenly to get the car to roll, and quite a few light 4 wheelers can be toppled this way, but it does show clearly that placing one wheel at the front with an engine above it is not a stable design. Obviously, driven properly (as described by the Reliant owners) will prevent this, but if you do have to swerve violently to avoid something then you can be in trouble. Squeak has been in her Grandad's plastic pig when it went over on a corner over a bridge, fortunately the corner was turning away from on-coming traffic.
It is also true that as modern cars have becoming increasing safe, drivers have becoming increasingly dangerous.....the thrill of "Risk Compensation"
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I thought it was funny but I guess if I were a serious Reliant owner it would have been a little harder to bare. On Stuarts point, I doubt there would have been a case for libel even if the company still existed, you would have to Ban comedy alltogether and lets face it some motoring journalists have been saying much the same about all three wheelers since there inception. I'm with Stuart on not lending them our cars though! If anyone is upset they shouldn't be. We all know that three wheelers don't tip over everytime you go round a corner and that's all that really matters.
Trident. I'm new to Isetta's so I'm no expert but I was told recently that all the cars used in the adverts were German cars. The other thing I have noticed is that on some doors there is a small round raised section in the door pressing designed to accept the BMW badge, others like mine for example do not and so clearly were never made to bare the BMW badge. I think the chassis plate says it all when it says something like Made by Isetta of Great Britain under license from BMW and ISO, its almost a potted history of car! Part of me is glad I have a Brighton car because of my dislike for modern BMW owners, surely the worst drivers on the roads today! ;) The other part of me wishes my car did have a BMW badge just so as to wind up the afore mentioned! :D
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It is also true that as modern cars have becoming increasing safe, drivers have becoming increasingly dangerous....."
And in a nutshell you have what this is all about. When I learned to drive the motto was to drive 'according to the conditions'. This was before street furniture, signposts every 10 yards, cameras etc. It meant you took responsibility for your safety and other whom you came near. You adjusted your driving style to vehicle and conditions. I think this has gone by the board for many folk who assume a 70 mph speed limit means 85 mph whatever and all the other nonesense you see on the roads in poor conditions. When it all goes wrong it is always someone else's fault or a 'car failure'. No, your usually a selfish ill disciplined nurk. All JC has done is prove once again if you behave like a spoilt teenager you can wreck things. Now sometimes that can be amusing but it is the same joke being trotted out again and again. It does rather suggest that the avid fans of this show suffer from reduced cranial capacity or should take up banger racing and do something instead of loafing about aimlessly. Compared to the original Top Gear which set out to educate and inform, reflecting the motoring world inhabited by normal drivers and enthusiast alike it has turned into automotive slapstick. It tells us a lot about society and could go a long way to explain many of the things wrong with it. It tells us virtually nothing about car enthusiasts or responsible driving. I care to watch some of the things they do but I would not participate in providing a car for filming. I can think of some quite interesting challenges they could do to but I will keep them to myself since they could be perverted into something rather nasty.
Why were you all watching on such a beautiful evening? I was out doing car stuff, moving a Heinkel and Fiat 126, enjoying all the missarable drunks spilling out of various pubs after 'Enga Land', as was clearly evident to a none footy person, dually got thrashed by the Germans at football. To win you have to score goals. So we took a team of 28, is it, with one mediocre striker. Yeah, that will do it then. That the Germans finally got return for the Hurst goal just puts the icing on the cake. The whole competion has been a fraud from the start. Ireland, England and Argentina being influenced one way or another by dodgy decisions. Normally they go in favour of the 'better' teams thereby insuring the final games are as exciting as Bernie Ecclestone's F1 each year and so maximising the money for the organisers. Perhaps turning Reliants over is a more honest and real thing to watch after all!
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I could never understand why Reliant stuck to the single front layout, its only "merit" is that it does make for for simpler steering and front suspension. If they had put a Mini or similar FWD engine/transmission and kept the basic proportions they would have had a much safer car. Better looking too. At their peak tey were producing quite a number of cars so presumably had some financial resources. Was one of their 4 wheels cars, like the Kitten, FWD? If so a single rear wheel version of that would have been very appealing.
By about 1970 I was already aware of comments and jokes about Reliants toppling on bends, this was long before Jasper Carrot and Mr Bean did their bit, so it does amaze me that Reliant took no steps to overcome the reputation.
I think they had a fairly "captive" market....people on a budget, bikers, and retired people so they never thought to make the change which would have made so much difference to a wider market.
Reliants had the potential to be SO much better than most (or even ALL) bubbles and micros: more space, more comfort, more performance, 4 cylinder engine, heater, reliability etc., but for me that single front wheel and its resultant instability was always the problem
Interestingly most American 3 wheel designs seem to favour the single front wheel which immediately puts me off them.
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IMade by Isetta of Great Britain under license from BMW and ISO, its almost a potted history of car! Part of me is glad I have a Brighton car because of my dislike for modern BMW owners, surely the worst drivers on the roads today! ;) The other part of me wishes my car did have a BMW badge just so as to wind up the afore mentioned! :D
Yes I would suggest it is not a true BMW. Indeed are any since ISO invented it. What is it about Microcars and being made in old railway buildings anyway? Interestingly the ones connected to aircraft seemed to be better. See Heinkel decay to Heinkel Ireland before being simplified into the Trojan.
But are Beemers now the worst driven cars. I fear Audi might have taken this title or maybe its an area thing. Though actually it is oversized 4 by 4's actually as they seem to think they own the road. Big mistake when I am out in a banger or Van on the country roads as I aim at them to get them in the ditch where they belong being off roaders. They get very upset by you not giving way but a lack of good paint and a big ugly image wins. There, Root, your missing all the fun round the lanes of Oxfordshire. As an ex banger racer this should be your style.
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It's not just drivers who dis-connect their brains when on the road...pedestrians now have Magic Cloaks Of Invincibilty (mobile phones) which allow them to walk and talk in the road in complete safety regardless of vehicles and cycles!
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Anybody have a picture of the weights used to help stabilize the 3 wheeled Isettas?
While you are at it- what were they made of, how effective were they, and how much did they weigh?
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Unhelpfully reply - It looks and weighs the same as Clarkson head.
I remain amazed at the stupidity of this design of adding weight when moving the battery and a reorganisation of several other parts would have achieved the same result as plonking a lump of steel in the sill. You can tell the cars were made in a Railway works by dilberts. I could not own a machine of such pathetic development from what was, grudgingly I accept, a reasonable Microcar when it first appeared. Like BMC they managed to create an increasingly bad car, 1100 to Allegro - best of the bunch, early MG1300 which was a popsy. Isetta, the German 250cc version. Both produced some 2 or 3 years into a long production while real development and good engineers were available for the task with some priority over the accountants.
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when moving the battery and a reorganisation of several other parts would have achieved the same result
Come on then Al, what other parts would you have moved over to the left hand side? Moving the battery over a few inches would make very little difference. Its easy to make sweeping statements.
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Better still: a flip-over steering column, like in a Heinkel He 111 bomber which can be flown from either seat!
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I like the flip over steering column. You could do that in a Trienkel but have to be thin to get in. Might try it in a modified Type 70 two seater.
Without having a car in front of me to measure up I will take your challenge. The better spec battery moves to the root of the wheel arch. That is as far over as you can get for the heaviest item. The spare wheel fits betwixt and between the wheel arch and parcel shelf over the battery which would be in the void of two circular items sunk into the floor an amount. That would mean a slightly narrower seat however the indent for the moved spare wheel would allow for staggered seating avoiding shoulder clash as in Morgan and MG. Seating therefore quits. The electrics can move as can the airbox to access on the side with a piped connection - indeed profiled that would increase torque. The fuel tank could use the void on that side although a variable weight might be considered a problem in itself unless a level indicator was present so the driver could make the calculation as to the level of fuel/cornering. Indeed it would be possible to move the chaincase over if you really get into it and use a longer axle. That would improve the functionality of the output flexidrive. Not sure of the weight required but that lot should do it but if not each car would come with a Terrier trained to lean out of the window.
Of course they could have made the car so it was balanced in the first place like just about everyone else did but then it would not have been an Isetta but a Treinkel. No wonder BMW threatened to take Heinkel to court, the swine made a better car using the same principles, the cheek of it.
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When you work on them you will realise there is no room in the rear wheel arch, there is no electrics, thats if you are talking about siba style control boxes etc, it has a proper reverse despite what Clarkson says! The air box weighs nothing. As far as I can see the fuel tank is the only thing that could have been moved and as you say that would be a variable advantage, owners of the period would have kept a jam jars worth of fuel in it! :D The only practical suggestion is the terrier leaning out of the window. For a British team hell bent on making a RHD 3 wheeled version without the option of moving the engine and gearbox the counter weight was the only practical way around it in my view. Your point about designing it with the engine on one side being flawed in the first place is a point but also on shacky ground because the original version was a four wheeler with a weighty little axle and worked perfectly well but then again so does the RHD version with the counter weight. One advantage often overlooked is that the British bods at least swapped the gear change sequence around to give a proper standard H sequence gear change. I'm still struggling to get used to my LHD back to front shift. You are so often right about these things Al but not this time. ;) I agree the Heinkel addressed some issues well but I cant live with all the vibration and the awefull gear change.
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How much did the counter weight weigh and exactly where did it stay?
I think Al may have been referring to the root of the front wheel arch as a new location for the batterry.
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If there is enough room for a counterweight behind the wing then there is for a battery. The rest follows logically. Even bits of tin and control boxes weigh something. Changing the rules because something is not very heavy is not really fair. The moment of any mass moved out from the axis line is of value on this exorcise. I bet it could be done but without a car or data I cannot prove it.
You hit the nail on the head, Isetta needed a RHD version. There was no investment money so the counterbalance was created and entered history once the fourwheeler was denied trike licencing. This is the reality and has to be lived with.
Of course I would take issue with the Trienkel gearchange, which is very good if set up correctly. Indeed I would put it against that of the Isetta, which is pretty complex in its own way. A well sorted Treinkel will out perform an Isetta in most departments, including acceleration, as it has a slick gearchange? Vibration, yes, no way round that but then it does not have a huge chassis under it. I was never happy in a RHD Isetta. The best Isetta I had to drive was the Ex Phil Bowler 250 German boy.
Of course one reason the Isetta had the engine in the side was to create a short enough car to park with the door over the pavement. The early ISO made a reasonable stab at this. BMW had the choice of producing a well engineered version of the layout, or a smart in line version which could have been an advance but chose the option of modifying what was there, save cash, and sell cheap. Who is to say they were wrong. But with the need for parking lights in Germany parking end on to the pavement was not a realistic possibility. The Isetta represents a distinct trade off in design against development costs. The problem with most Microcars sadly.
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I cant answer Stevens question about what the weight weighed but I can post the question on Isetta world and report back.
Al, in fairness to you I have only had a drive of two Heinkel/Trojans and both had rotten gear shifts so maybe I got a false impression. Uncle earnest had the advantage of designing it from scratch where as BMW as you suggested worked with an existing design and that spells compromise. I guess a thin skinny battery would have gone in where the weight is but that would have created its own crank hour limitations. All things are possible if you throw enough money at it but that wasnt part of the exercise, It had to be done economically, as you said this is the nature of most microcars. Still doesnt alter the fact the the RHD car works fine. Nothing personal but if you are much heavier than average its going to have some effect on any three wheeler. I remember Phils car with the Z bar trim, a nice car and I know he much regretted mugging it away, still we've all done it! At the end of the day the cars are what they are and the rest is history but we will al have our preferences, I would rather sacrifice acceleration for a chassis mounted car and much less vibration.I would like to have a drive of a well sorted Heineken some time though, I may be missing out!
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Uncle Earnest? Mein Gott, haben sie no idea, Purchtonn? Ernst was sein name!
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two Heinkel/Trojans and both had rotten gear shifts so maybe I got a false impression.
Most of them have as they have not been set up for a gear change without play in it and/or an engine that ticks over on demand. It is in the detail.
I can understand the chassis thing, a lot easier to live with. Of course a 4 wheeled RHD would be better but there is always something that is.
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I will have to get the Mrs to translate that, she is of good German stock you know! It explains everything!
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Good German Stock
Would that be Gulasch?
Chris T
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I remember my messerschmitt from when I was 21 and used to a TR2 and it scared the stuffing out of me when I was driving,
it seems to me the 4 wheel types of vehicles are a bit more safe in my experience but who remembers MR Bean, how many crashes did he have?
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Mr Bean's adversary drove a Reliant with a single front wheel and a relatively high centre of gravity, noe a good combination when cornering because the is no "outside" wheel to counter he lean. Double front wheelers are generally far more stable. The Messershmitt is a stable car, but the direct steering does need a lot of control from the driver. Also, most 3 wheelers are designed with the concept of Cabin Scooters rather than 4 wheel sports cars, so it is not really fair to compare them! The Morgan 3s (and all the simlar/copies), with their engine slung low between the front wheels gave superb handling, and outer-corner cars and motorcycles, but of course at the expense of being very cramped, with little luggage space.