RUMCars Forum
General Category => Microcar Events => Topic started by: Bob Purton on March 22, 2010, 08:03:39 PM
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Not Microcars but I guess mopeds are kind of related.
Here is a link to a few pix of the event. I'm wearing the red helmet and riding the yellow and blue Puch MS50.
http://www.icenicam.ukfsn.org/events5/100321.html
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Not Microcars but I guess mopeds are kind of related.
As in what way? Ok I admit they are piloted by humans and have internal combustion engines and wheels but little else. The only connection was in the early years bikers progressed to micros due to the license concessions at the time.
Can we keep topics micro related?
However this is my opinion and others may welcome such postings..
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Well its a very small moped! Anyone brave enough to be seen with his red helmet out has my respect even if I do not want to see it particularly! Maybe humour is not on too so I will shut up now.
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P50....... Related in what way? Well in three ways really, first they are diminative transport that working class folk of the period owned for commuting etc and as you noted, many progressed onto microcars from two wheels, secondly quite a few microcar people who use the forum are also cyclemotor enthusiasts. Thirdly as your forum ID P50 is a Honda moped from the sixties I assumed you were a fan! On the other hand they are not microcars and this is the Rumcars forum so I will shut up!
Mr Bear.....Humour is compulsory on the forum but preferably not smut.
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I'm sorry Bob but I also like pre war racing cars and 60's minibikes. No point mentioning that here though...
It's a RUM forum. Mopeds were cheap transport for emerging economies. Especially Asian.
Micros are a different more eccentric concept which generally died out. That interests me. Plus some of the nutters that post here...
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If you want eccentrics you should have been where I was on Sunday , oooops! I must not mention that again. Seriously though my experience last Sunday on the dash was so reminiscent of how things used to be years ago at microcar rallies before ebay, wealthy collectors and high values screwed it all up, everyone was really friendly, a warm welcome to newcomers, no snobbery, no mafia, no don't mention that on our forum, anything goes and did!!. Shame we cant turn the clock back really!
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If you want eccentrics you should have been where I was on Sunday , oooops! I must not mention that again. Seriously though my experience last Sunday on the dash was so reminiscent of how things used to be years ago at microcar rallies before ebay, wealthy collectors and high values screwed it all up, everyone was really friendly, a warm welcome to newcomers, no snobbery, no mafia, no don't mention that on our forum, anything goes and did!!. Shame we cant turn the clock back really!
I'll not argue with that. But it's still a grin at the NMCR National, School House, MOC National etc etc..
The rare stuff is rare because is was not terribly good thus didn't sell. Scootacar vs Schmitt etc etc. You can't take a Peel on a 50 mile roadrun through the dales and keep up. The common Micros are more plentiful. Thus cheaper (not necessarily cheap) and much more usable. As time ebbs on it will be interesting to see where stuff goes etc once disposed of. All my machines were built way before I was born.. But I still like them.
So the "new kids have no interest" angle simply doesn't stand up. Likewise Bugattis etc.. They're worth millions but no owner was alive when they were built.
I fear the rare stuff will go overseas. Our currency is weak and we have a lot of tackle over here...
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Mr Bear.....Humour is compulsory on the forum but preferably not smut.
Yes, sorry, smut is not low carbon. I will attempt greener humour.
I think Bob has a very valid point about events. Mopeds, vintage karts and such are relitively new and expanding areas of interest so fresh and free of spirit. It pays to find other activities from time to time. Once the money comes in the thing goes away from the bargin basement. Many 'new kids' have no interest as they cannot afford the entry price. I cannot afford a Bug but I would like one. Certain things trancend memory but what about the boring black pre war saloons. They have dropped in price as no one really wants them anymore. Maybe they are fun again.
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I think many of us on this forum have interest in all sorts of things other than just micros, and I welcome the occasional foray into other areas, like submarine cars, scooter autgyros, moped rallies, mechanical elephants etc.. As long as the main focus is on micros count me in for anything unusual, rare or amusing.
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Well that has been the tradition so far in the forums history. It can be very hard not to mention occasionally something else that interests us especially when we know that other users will also be interested, Tony Marshals passion for Austin Allegro's pops up in most issues of RCN and who cares if it does! Sometimes there is a lul of activity on the forum and I see no harm in introducing topics that are "related" if it keeps things jogging along. Its not compulsory to read all the topics if one is not interested. I would quite like to hear about Perry's mini bike collection or prewar racing cars, anything to stop him going on about Peels! Ho! Ho! only joking Perry! Do you remember the time in the pub when we said the next one to mention the word Peel has to buy all the drinks ? It changed nothing! You carried on all night but just substituted Peel with "the P word"!! untill eventually it slipped out, we never did get our free drinks! :D :D
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OK. Here's my 1963 Honda CZ100 White Tank.
Only sold in UK, Germany and France. Not Japan. This is the genesis of the whole Monkey range. Hand made frame with no frame numbers stamped in. Or speedo. These came later with the Red Tank model from '64 onwards when Honda realised there was demand.
As you can see it has been restored (perhaps over restored) to show/concours condition. Parts are impossible to get. Very few exist and less are on their original registration.
As with my micros, for sale when I'm dead as utterly impossible to replace!
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Lovely Perry! Was that tank used on other full size Honda's? What do you think of Di Blassi?
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The whole bike was an in house bitza. The tank came off a Honda C110.
http://www.paradisecycles.com/Images/Image001.jpg
Grips,foot pegs,exhaust pipe/shield,badges,horn,rear light unit etc came off contemporary Hondas.
One think that is uber unique is the White Tank headlamp,bowl and bezel. From nothing else and rarer than a NOS Scootacar Mk1 LEP backlight.
My bike was bought new in Morpeth in '63. It was last used '65-'66 as it had the original tax disc on it ending '66. Charming little thing. I also have a Trobike! and a Skat Kitty (see link)
http://dmcgee.smugmug.com/photos/569887069_3g8XS-M.jpg
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OK. Here's my 1963 Honda CZ100 White Tank.
Only sold in UK, Germany and France. Not Japan. This is the genesis of the whole Monkey range. Hand made frame with no frame numbers stamped in. Or speedo. These came later with the Red Tank model from '64 onwards when Honda realised there was demand.
As you can see it has been restored (perhaps over restored) to show/concours condition. Parts are impossible to get. Very few exist and less are on their original registration.
As with my micros, for sale when I'm dead as utterly impossible to replace!
Over restored!!! you cheeky git.That took me a lot of blood sweat and tears to restore that back to its former glory ;)
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Ollie, you are clearly a man after my own heart! Never could understand all this overrestored nonsense, if a machine had nice shiny new paint, perfect chrome etc etc when new how can a thing be overrestored! The exception would be straying from original spec. You did a cracking job! In my experience those who shout "overrestored" usually cant restore!
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Ollie, you are clearly a man after my own heart! Never could understand all this overrestored nonsense, if a machine had nice shiny new paint, perfect chrome etc etc when new how can a thing be overrestored! The exception would be straying from original spec. You did a cracking job! In my experience those who shout "overrestored" usually cant restore!
Totally agree with you Bob ;)
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What is over restored? For me it is going beyond the original finish the car was sold with. Quite a few Isettas and Messerschmitts therefore fall into that category. However a car carrying loads of original or faithfully replicated extras is a case of taste not over restoration. Do you like bling, if you like?
Is it bad to over restore a car? No, not really, as that is what the owner wanted and hopefully he is happy with it. The only problem is when those cars become the yardstick by which the rest are judged since we loose originality to the altar of shiny. Case in point - where are the many 1955-57 standard Messerschmitts? Your not telling me they did not sell at least as many as the Export (De Lux). Nope, most have been 'over restored' into a model FMR never made. Neither standard nor Export (De Lux) and often not actually with correctly dated instrumentation. Oh dear!
Original Messerschmitts are actually very thin on the ground and the majority are wrong thanks to 'over restoration' and its effects combined with a lack of information from perhaps the car with the strongest Club backing other than Bonds. Yet Bond Owners seem to be far more aware of their car's original features for all the lower financial status. Or maybe that is the problem with over restoration, it is actually about money.
Unfortunately some in the MOC have forgotten why Mick Leeson's 7000 mile KR200 was purchased by that club. It was to serve as a resource for those restoring a late type Messerschmitt to study so they could get their restoration correct. It was a purchase for the future members benefit. It was not bought to make money, as I understand it. If that is what is to be the future then I humbly submit that the institution has gone from a club to a business. It would be particularly damaging if the club sold the car abroad. I think the topic has created some serious internal debate within the MOC and so it should. The result could be very important to all Schmitters and point the direction in which the cars are headed. Selling it points in a direction I do not want to go. However it is probably realistic! Personally I think low milage and original cars are the most valuable and that is why I have collected them over restored pretty cars. What to do if I want to preserve their status as Mick did. Nigh on impossible actually since museums, clubs and all seem to be at the whim of mind or trustee policy changes. Perhaps these cars are better in a shed where some individual loves them than at the whim of democratic based vandalism. Please accept this is not an attack on the MOC but an illustrations of the problems associated with how to keep original vehicles. They are terribly important to the enthusiast.
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I have seen various makes and types of classic car which I consider to be over-restored, and to me it is partly when they look better than they ever did when brand new and in a Showroom. Many micros of the 50s and 60s were designed to be affordable and were not given Rolls Royce standards of construction and finishing.
Adding wheel trims and embellishments was often done by dealers and first owners, just as nowadays, and although these may not have been manufacturer's standard fittings they re removable, and reflect peoples' way of personalising their car, which is great.
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I fully understand what you guys are saying but i have found it very difficult on the monkey bikes and my kr200 that i am restoring or restored to try and achieve the original finish.I found with my kr200 i have 99% of the genuine parts but they have surface rust and pitting so to try and remove that you have to polish them out or repaint .once that is done you have lost that original dull finish when it came out the factory moulds etc so therefore that finish is wrong.I'm having my car finished in 2 pac paint which as we know is not original but i'm going to be showing my car at shows and want it to look good.It would be nice to find these machines that were bought brand new and rapped in cotton wool and never used and say i have an unrestored(not over restored) car but the odds of that are very very slim as we all know.So how far do you go before you say its not been over restored?
I could of built my kr200 back up and not touch any of the ally,chrome or painted bits and it would of looked like i had just dragged it out the breakers yard..not the look i'm after :)
I will say that i am using many of the genuine parts and they have just been cleaned up but for a lot of old 50's ,60's cars that are being restored this is not possible as the parts are all rotten through or damaged.
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With you Ollie! I think if a car is ultra-rare, like only 3 left in the world then it is crucial that their identity and originality is maintained, but cars like Bonds and the "Big 3" Bubble Cars have survived in sufficient numbers that I have no problem with minor improvements and additions which are not genuine. A few people have commented that my Trojan is not "fully as original", so I point out that about 50% of the original metal structure had rusted away! 2 pack may be "wrong" but I see no problem with making use of better materials. Anyway, the point is always that whoever owns the car has a right to make any decisions!
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I fully understand what you guys are saying but i have found it very difficult on the monkey bikes and my kr200 that i am restoring or restored to try and achieve the original finish.I found with my kr200 i have 99% of the genuine parts but they have surface rust and pitting so to try and remove that you have to polish them out or repaint .once that is done you have lost that original dull finish when it came out the factory moulds etc so therefore that finish is wrong.I'm having my car finished in 2 pac paint which as we know is not original but i'm going to be showing my car at shows and want it to look good.It would be nice to find these machines that were bought brand new and rapped in cotton wool and never used and say i have an unrestored(not over restored) car but the odds of that are very very slim as we all know.So how far do you go before you say its not been over restored?
I could of built my kr200 back up and not touch any of the ally,chrome or painted bits and it would of looked like i had just dragged it out the breakers yard..not the look i'm after :)
I will say that i am using many of the genuine parts and they have just been cleaned up but for a lot of old 50's ,60's cars that are being restored this is not possible as the parts are all rotten through or damaged.
The problem expressed by a restorer encapsulates the dilema. I could say be like me and wait for an original car to come up, they are out there, however that is a specialist area really, more so than restoring cars from a mess, itself unusual these days! Where the wheels really fall of is cheque book restorations with no real referance to data available. The big budget tends to lead to the need to prove it is the dogs whatsits. Very often it is great to look at but something got lost in the process and I really steer very clear of such cars as they are very often a bit of a nightmare. Marcus is right it is the owners business and the best defence is to learn about the cars so at least you know what you are looking at even if no one else does.
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Just wondering if Perry has a twin or if indeed it was himself, trying to negotiate a monkey bike through the cross roads of Mare St and Hackney Rd on Saturday afternoon?
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That was me and my mate Lee. We went for a blat around Londinistan.
Well spotted!! mine's the noisy one.. His is a chrome ltd edition.
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Fancy bringing them out this Saturday? We are doing the "nasty run" [only named such because it takes in the village called Nasty!] Hertfordshire country villages, pub lunch! Go on you know you want to! Last time participents included a Corgi and other minibikes. Ask me for details if interested.
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That was me and my mate Lee.
Ahh I knew it! I was at the traffic lights when you came clattering past, poor old Lee must be hoarse by now having to shout over the racket! However great bikes and it looked like you were having fun. ;D
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Fancy bringing them out this Saturday? We are doing the "nasty run" [only named such because it takes in the village called Nasty!] Hertfordshire country villages, pub lunch! Go on you know you want to! Last time participents included a Corgi and other minibikes. Ask me for details if interested.
Can I have some more details? May attend. Where, when, route, starting point, etc etc...
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Hi Perry. I have sent you an email with a link. I warn you, its infectious!!