RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: steven mandell on May 16, 2014, 11:16:15 AM
-
It was quite a thrill to finally get the Frisky Family Three's engine to run yesterday :D
After spending a few weeks of free time cleaning out the tank, shut off valve and carburetor, and chasing down the spark in the ignition system, I literally couldn't stop clapping over the roar of the engine for about the first 30 seconds after she fired up for the first time in nearly a decade.
The mystery to myself is why I could only get a decent enough spark to get it to run well, if I both disconnected what I believe to be the condensor, (see accompanying picture) and ran a spark plug wire without a static suppressing resistor in the spark plug end cap of the ignition cable from the coil. Put either of these back into the electrical circuit, and the spark would become too weak/ erratic to start the engine.
I am using a new spark plug, and the wires involved look good. I also did a precision job straightening and gapping the points and setting the timing of the point set that is energized for forward running of the engine.
For awhile I used an identical, but slightly shinier example of the same condensor with temporarily good results, but then a short while later, it would only spark well enough to run with the second condensor, and spark plug resistor removed from the circuit again.
John Meadows has verified that it uses a positive ground electrical architecture. However at one point I burnt up a light gauge temporary jump wire from what I believed was the positive pole of the batterry to the 12 volt power in side of the coil terminal. I was trying to factor out the dodgy ignition switch which only maintained power to the coil if I kept some counterclockwise pressure on the ignition key after it started.
It is possible that I hooked the temporary jumper to the negative battery terminal by mistake, as both positive and negative battery cables are in the same red color.
The solder tipped light blue wire in the picture that is connected to the condensor by spring pressure only, attaches to the other minor terminal of the coil, along with the point trigger wire.
Could I have blown the second condensor by grounding the 12 volt power in terminal to the coil just long enough go melt the insulation off the thin gauge jumper wire. No other wires got warm during this brief fiasco.
If it is indeed a condensor, why does it show "500 V max" on both the Scootacar, and Frisky units? Where can I get replacements?
I also have two identical bakelight 90 degree spark plug boots with built in 1 K ohm resistors. She also wont run with either.
-
You can buy a replacement condenser from the Messerschmitt owners club. That's where I got my new one for my Nobel special, I reasoned, same siba black box and dynastart , then its got to be the right condenser. You could do an experiment and remove a condenser from one of your many Nobels, see if the Frisky runs with that.
-
Thanks Bob.
I don't know why this site considers even one picture to be too large a file size to post, as I used to be able to send two at a time when taken and sent by the very same camera phone that I have used to post pictures previously.
The condensors in question have a wire with a soldered pig tail that is held in contact with the condensor by virtue of a coil spring pressing it into contact betwen a washer and the condensor's electrode.
Any good guesses as to why the spark arrestor/ resistor at the end of the spark plug wire won't let enough spark through?
-
Yes, the condenser you describe is the Schmitt one. I don't know if partsmart still have that original type but what ever they provide will be the equivalent.
Re your resistor, is it an anti interference suppressor? Which ever, its can have only either have broken down or the current coming down the HT lead is weak. Why do you need it anyway?
-
Steven
I don't know Friskys, but I do know the similar Villiers engine in Bonds.
I'm confused when you talk of supplying power to the coil: if you are indeed using a positive earth system, then you would be correct, not mistaken, to provide the coil with "power" from the negative battery terminal. If you mistakenly connected it to the "earthed" terminal, then nothing much should happen - it would connect "earth" through coil and points, back to "earth".
Burning out the wire suggests a short somewhere after the input to the coil?
I never run my Bonds with a suppressor in the plug lead. They don't like it!
The "500V" rating is normal on the condensor. The steady voltage applied to the coil is a mere 12V, but sudden cutting off of the current when the points open causes spikes in the voltage that the condensor "sees". The crisper the separation, the higher the spikes. The "500V" rating means that the condensor would be able to take spikes of up to 500V before it breaks down. Much as with pliers that have insulated handles rated for "6000V" or whatever, I wouldn't expect the day-to-day use to approach anywhere near the rating!
-
Yes, the condenser you describe is the Schmitt one. I don't know if partsmart still have that original type but what ever they provide will be the equivalent.
Re your resistor, is it an anti interference suppressor? Which ever, its can have only either have broken down or the current coming down the HT lead is weak. Why do you need it anyway?
Would still like to see a picture before I buy.
Speaking of which, I am always turned off by such "exclusive" websites that require you to join a club/ pay a fee for the privilege of being allowed to buy a part from them that they are already making a fair profit on. For goodness sake, they won't even allow me to download a picture of it.
Who do they claim to be protecting? It is just their unjustly creating another reason to to get more money from you.
I shouldn't have to join a club to buy a part for each of the unusual microcars I own. That is one reason why I joined RUMCARS.
Anybody have a work around for this?
I also gathered that the part that they are selling is different from the original in at least its mounting bracketry.
Anybody know of a more commonly available part that is electrically identical so I can go to a local parts store tommarrow, and be driving her down the road this weekend?
I do not need or want a suppressor at the spark plug end of my coil to plug wire, as the car never had a radio. However, because it is a centrally stranded copper core wire, I can only attach the spark plug cap and boot to it via a central longitudinally orientated spear or wood screw like protrusion centrally mounted. The only cap ends that I could find that use this type of electrical affixment are a bakelight part with a suppressor cast integrally.
I could use a resistance type wire with a simple non suppressed cap end, but then it would not have a central core design, and hence in addition to lowering the amount of current available to the sparking plug, not be readily adaptable to the central spear found in the end of the coil.
-
I suspect there is nothing very special about the condenser at all. It's a straight forward battery, coil, point ignition system. What is available in the USA? An Isetta part perhaps? Don't you have classic motorcycles over there apart from those ghastly Harley things?? Same goes for the plug cap, old Vespa, Lambretta, Triumph, all use screw on plug caps. Try a classic bike shop. I can source them here for you but it seems unnecessary to me.
I don't belong to the MOC but if I need anything from partsmart I just someone who is to get it for me.
-
I shouldn't have to join a club to buy a part for each of the unusual microcars I own. That is one reason why I joined RUMCARS.
Rumcars is not a club and therefore does not supply parts. If you want a part for an unusual microcar then Rumcars can provide help and guidance on possible sources. You have been given a source that happens to be another Microcar CLUB. Why would they want to supply parts that are sourced and manufactured by members for the benefit of other members to those outside their CLUB ?.
If you choose to own a variety of unusual microcars then it can only be expected that you might have to join more than one CLUB in order to source parts.
Try looking on line for Villiers Services, who are used by a number of Rumcars members and might be able to supply the correct condenser.
As a multiple Frisky owner, I can assure you finding a condenser should be easy compared to many of the unique parts made by Meadows.
Grant
-
Steven
I don't know Friskys, but I do know the similar Villiers engine in Bonds.
I'm confused when you talk of supplying power to the coil: if you are indeed using a positive earth system, then you would be correct, not mistaken, to provide the coil with "power" from the negative battery terminal. If you mistakenly connected it to the "earthed" terminal, then nothing much should happen - it would connect "earth" through coil and points, back to "earth".
Burning out the wire suggests a short somewhere after the input to the coil?
I never run my Bonds with a suppressor in the plug lead. They don't like it!
John Meadows says that despite what some other sources quote- all Friskys are negative earthed.
I currently believe that I had either the light gauge jumper, or the cables to the batterry reversed, and that is why the jumper fried when connected to the "15" terminal of the coil that was still connected to the energised wire coming from the ignition switch. Fortunately it was a light enough wire to act as a fusible link, and apparently no other wires were warmed in the process.
Do you think that this could have damaged my second condensor?
Your other commentary is duly noted and appreciated.
Thanks for your input.
-
Hi Steve
I bought some Villiers spark plug boots and had to remove everything inside the boot as they would not work. I drilled them out and put regular spark plug connectors on the wires, put them back thru the boot so I could have the Villiers look.
-
Why would they want to supply parts that are sourced and manufactured by members for the benefit of other members to those outside their CLUB ?.
If you choose to own a variety of unusual microcars then it can only be expected that you might have to join more than one CLUB in order to source parts.
Try looking on line for Villiers Services, who are used by a number of Rumcars members and might be able to supply the correct condenser.
As a multiple Frisky owner, I can assure you finding a condenser should be easy compared to many of the unique parts made by Meadows.
Grant I appreciate your contributions to the multi make microcar scene, and know of your eclectic involvements with multiple microcar clubs and registers.
I never expected that Rumcars would sell me any parts. But I do respectfully disagree on the issue of requiring club membership prior to selling a part essential to the running of another make of vehicle for which no club exists.
Perhaps you are too forgiving in this instance, as MOC has clearly not invested in remaking the original part. Their installation instructions refer to having only a single mount hole, and having to pigtail wires together to make it work.
if I am going to put up with such a non original result, I'll be damned if I am going to pay both an inflated price, as well as a membership fee to a club that caters to a car that I do not own for the "privilege".
Why even our other model citizen Bob sees the scam here.
The role model suppliers that I think deserve recognition include the likes of John Meadows or Stephen Boyd of the Scootacar Registry. They operate these organizations strictly for the personal satisfaction of ensuring that these makes survive the rigors of time. If they have a part, or indeed go thorough all the tremendous bother of remaking an original or even improved version of a no longer available part, they do their best to get the word out, and then charge just enough to cover their costs.
Now that is service a full order of magnitude higher in the realm of ethics and ideals, than a "club" that portends to be protecting something for its members, whilst additionally lining their pockets. The Mafiosa also sells this type of protection.
Let's hear it for the true enthusiast privateers, by giving them a token of our appreciation for not going the way of the profiteers.
Do we have a Hall of Fame or something like that yet?
We could have another category for people like Andy Carter who are creating high quality parts that would otherwise be unobtainable, and jeopardize the survival of some of our endangered species, and charging a fair price for their product.
THANKYOU for the referral to the wonderful Villiers spares website. I have emailed them my request.
-
Hi Steve
I bought some Villiers spark plug boots and had to remove everything inside the boot as they would not work. I drilled them out and put regular spark plug connectors on the wires, put them back thru the boot so I could have the Villiers look.
Hey Mark,
Will tremendously appreciate it if you could post a picture of your modification.
Let me also take this opportunity to thank you for your incredible efforts and results in remaking improved spec Frisky Sport parts. I guess we will need another category for the Hall of Fame for you.
-
I too am convinced that Frisky were negative earth. So the first thing is to sort out the dynostarter wiring so it is powering the starter coils with current going to negative. As its a reversing engine it can run in reverse wired up negative or positive. Check that it is running the starter circuit from positive to negative. If the engine has been run for a while 'the wrong way round' the flywheel will be magnetically reversed. It will need to be reset.
Having established that the engine and dynostart are rotating in the same way for the result required you can hook up the ignition to the feed, which is a power lead to the coil and the points lead from the magnetic switch relay to the other pole. The condenser is fitted between the contact plate and coil to prevent the contacts burning out, though the lesser spark still erodes the contact area over time. My experience of these condensers is they are tough, but time will see them off. The insulation goes. The old bolt on spring clipped item for Micros has long gone, so another will need to be sourced, if yours is duff. Most condensers for older cars have similar values. But a new one is pence from autojumble.
So poor spark. Well if half the system is positive and half negative, that will be a synch. With the wiring checked it makes sense to clean all contacts while you are going round. Make sure the magnetic relay switch is going home. If it is playing up you can wire the condenser direct to the points chosen to run, forward or reverse, missing out the magnetic relay switch. If the plug cap is suspect then take it off and just wire the HT lead direct to the plug, using the plug connector on the thread, for testing. If the coil is not very good it will show by getting hot in a few minutes use. Also it will void black wax from its top. Its far more likely to fail than the condenser.
In extremes you can create a HT spark gap in the lead to increase the voltage of the charge at the plug. It will therefore produce a bigger, longer, spark. This is all that is inside one of those Magic Spark, or other in line spark enhancing devices sold at car shows. Total con for the money, as you can make your own.
As to clubs supplying parts to non members. Its their choice, of course, but I think this practice of limited supply is fast becoming outdated. The membership fees are normally to cover magazine costs, but these publications are under attack from the Internet.The world has moved on and restricted ownership groups with some kind of advanced access to parts via a fee is becoming a way to ensure that only a minority of cars get used within a specific area of activity. Maybe that is considered desirable? I do not know. Once Van Rhiew, Oliver Herbolzhiemer and others supply the general Messerschmitt market, the cat is out of the bag. Add in that the club mentioned chose to alienate its best, cheapest and most loyal supplier, after falling out with its prior spares service supplier and constructor before even commencement of service, both no longer sells them anything, and I am not sure I am surprised to hear of further trading losses. If there is an argument in favour of restrictive practice in a Ltd company, I fear it is an extraordinarily weak one here, once given the facts.
-
Just for the record Steven, I never said that the MOC Partsmart service was a "SCAM".
Ok, they may not be having replica condensers made to the original pattern but someone still has to source the alternative, test it and invest in buying a batch. They have however invested thousands over the years in having all sorts of stuff made including domes, panels etc. Clubs choose the way they want to run there parts service and we have to respect that. If you don't like it then its tough. I have enjoyed my few years of not belonging to any clubs because it has forced me to stretch my initiative and either make or source my own parts. I have learned a lot and quite often you end up with a better part than I would have bought from the clubs.
I agree with you over respect for Steven Boyd!
-
I do not agree with a need to respect restrictive trade practices. Maybe that's the American in me.
I think it likely that I will source an at least equal quality part locally for at most half the price.
Requiring me to subsidize magazine publishing costs for a mag that I do not need to read merely unnecessarily complicates, obfuscates and increases costs for someone who simply needs a part for a different mark of vehicle.
Great advice Al. I will give the system a check over next chance I get.
Sorry to say , that your half positive and half negative comment relating to spark strength will require further elaboration to avoid following on deaf ears.
Same goes for a simple and practical way to construct the gap jump spark enhancing device you mention.
But I fear the Earth may be in danger of tipping over after having stopped spinning on its axis when I hear you say that you don't know if you agree that only a minority of microcars should be encouraged to be run, and in just specifically sanctioned events to boot. I certainly hope that we are not beginning to see a new politically correct Al.
For if that be so, I fear I have to face the fact that the majority of English gentlemen are concerned about appearing "proper" to the point of impropriety.
-
Well, I don't like the clubs that will not sell to you unless you are a member but its ultimately up to them. I was peeved when the BOC wouldn't sell me a silencer last year as I was not a member of the club, what made it worse was that I had paid a life time membership fee for the bond spares scheme some time earlier. Apparently the scheme fizzled out, a new one was started but the old membership wasn't recognised. No refund offered. Now, that's more like a scam!
With regards to the MOC spares, I would have thought that for someone running three Nobels with Schmitt engines it would be worth you joining. That's what I did years ago when I run my Nobel. It was a joy dealing with Helga!
-
I do not agree with a need to respect restrictive trade practices. Maybe that's the American in me.
I think it likely that I will source an at least equal quality part locally for at most half the price.
Requiring me to subsidize magazine publishing costs for a mag that I do not need to read merely unnecessarily complicates, obfuscates and increases costs for someone who simply needs a part for a different mark of vehicle.
Great advice Al. I will give the system a check over next chance I get.
Sorry to say , that your half positive and half negative comment relating to spark strength will require further elaboration to avoid following on deaf ears.
Just that if you mix positive dynostart to negative ignition, or whatever, you are in a muddle.
Same goes for a simple and practical way to construct the gap jump spark enhancing device you mention. Cut HT lead, bare conductor either end, create suitable gap. Cover in a suitable sheath, like a cut down Biro body and shrinkwrap and Bob is your Aunt Lucy.
But I fear the Earth may be in danger of tipping over after having stopped spinning on its axis when I hear you say that you don't know if you agree that only a minority of microcars should be encouraged to be run, and in just specifically sanctioned events to boot. I certainly hope that we are not beginning to see a new politically correct Al.
I am always politically correct as politics is like religion and mainly bunkum disguising peer pressure and worse. I leave it to others to form conglomeration of prejudiced beliefs into gangs, especially when they do not coincide with my thoughts, which tend to the libertarian. Eventually most people wake up, or take the easy option of not thinking about it, in which case they become boring. So either way there is not much point in rubbing it in as the majority will be in denial. A gentleman would thus respectfully move the topic elsewhere before there is a distasteful scene. I wonder what the recommended camper is for Schmitters?
For if that be so, I fear I have to face the fact that the majority of English gentlemen are concerned about appearing "proper" to the point of impropriety.
-
... I was peeved when the BOC wouldn't sell me a silencer last year as I was not a member of the club, what made it worse was that I had paid a life time membership fee for the bond spares scheme some time earlier. Apparently the scheme fizzled out, a new one was started but the old membership wasn't recognised.
You misunderstood, Bob.
The old Spares scheme did indeed come to an end, as it was unworkable. However, for those who were still club members (of either the Bug Club or the Bond Owners' Club) the old membership was recognised.
Selling spares to club members only may seem odd (or un-american to some!), but it makes sense in some ways:
- The spares organisers often work for nothing other than the benefit of the club members (and why should someone who's not prepared to join the club, or contribute to it in knowledge or social support, get their attention, time and effort?)
- the clubs often fork out considerable sums to get parts made. That money belongs to the club members, and is so deployed for them to have spares available. Why should anyone else benefit from their investment?
- the spares schemes aren't businesses. The idea of someone "lining their pockets" is absurd (and far too American ;) ) In most clubs, any profit made from the sale is ploughed back into expanding the range of spares available.
- when cars are getting rare, if people with those cars don't join the relevant clubs, then those clubs will perish. When the club goes, any benefits the last members had from the club disappear - so naturally the members want the club to continue, and therefore want other owners to join. Offering a benefit (such as spares) linked directly to the club is one way of promoting that.
It's a shame, Steven, that as an American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.
-
Perhaps it's your manner Steven - you certainly have a way with words. :)
-
You lay out a logical case there Mr Miller. I still feel cheated over Bond spares though. I ended up making my own silencer which knocks spots off of any Bond club product. That's what I keep telling myself anyway! ;D
-
It's a shame, Steven, that as an American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.
Evidently my "way with words" wasn't good enough to get my point across to Dave, as he apparently reversed my point in his understanding.
Requiring the joining of a club to buy parts is a "foreign" concept over here.
Secondarily, if membership dues were based on publishing costs and postage, there would be no need to require a subsidy from the sale of parts.
Personally I do not believe that the cost quoted for the non original condensers is fairly tied to any research, development, or bulk purchase cost. If I am successful in coming up with a more fairly priced alternative with equal or better similarity of appearance (someone post pic of MOC unit for comparison please) to the originals, I will gladly share the information on this forum.
Now if you want to restrict that trade practice, you can always convert to Totalitarian Communism. :)
-
I guess the answer is when you have spent all your spare time and money setting up a spares scheme of your own and don't want to make a profit we can all buy our stuff from you. Until you have done that please stop whingeing! ::)
-
Hardly reasonable to require that I set up an entire micro car supply business to be allowed the right to make suggestions that could benefit many of us including yourself.
Would you be willing to share details of how you constructed your superior Bond silencer?
-
Yep. I described it with photo's on this very site.
-
I knew you had it in you Bob.
That is the attitude I want to support.
-
When the club goes, any benefits the last members had from the club disappear - so naturally the members want the club to continue, and therefore want other owners to join. Offering a benefit (such as spares) linked directly to the club is one way of promoting that.
It's a shame, Steven, that as an American you prize the making of money over mutual support between car owners.
Alternative view could be that the existing members need new members to continue to finance a spares service in much the way a Ponzi scheme works as a pension scheme. Admittedly that is really only true of schemes where money is being removed from the system by preferential discounts, expenses and profit manipulation. The true club 'fair shares for all' is a worthwhile model and worth investing in to join, but seldom exists in its pure form. Where those modified systems are in replacement of the pure club system the question should be, why after 40 years can I not buy more perfect replica new parts for my car, if this self investment scheme and possibly high pricing, is true, as you state? The money is disappearing somewhere? Someone paid, Limited Company? Sorry that is a business. Worse still are thefts of parts, like Isetta and Bond whole spares schemes.
Well now its easy to double check pricing and availability as stuff is available elsewhere. A price check shows availability direct why do I need to buy into a set of rules to access a limited business? You can see why the old fashioned club is coming under pressure. Information is becoming the restricting factor. I note how often it is withheld when requested. A few bad practices in the club structure added and you are going to begin to struggle to hold your audience. I do not make the rules up. It just Is.
I find I am now a member of no Microcar club. Has it prevented me doing things to my cars, no not yet. Will it, probably. But then there is a choice. I can create what I need by research, sell up or I can join the various clubs should they actually sell what I want, at a price I will buy it at inflated by their ponzi scheme fees.
No idea on Bonds, but I to was scammed out of my investment like Bob. Once bitten, twice shy. Goggos, well they have Uwe, who is not a Club. Schmitts? The privateers are taking over and seem to be cheaper or better stocked than the clubs. Club services on info, like events. Well thats working well, as most folk have not a clue what is on when. Or are we all really building for value like Steven, who takes his cars to other States to show and drive them - Oh, thats being an enthusiasts, isn't it. He is American though. You know, the place where these cars are the big news and where the action now is. Steven is the vocal part of the new (not so new) owners of these cars. Only the Brits could ignore the facts and claim that our 50 year old system is as good as the day it was brought forward. Its laughable really. Those poor yanks joining these clubs really do not know what they are letting themselves in for, bloody colonials.
Sorry it all amuses me.
-
The role model suppliers that I think deserve recognition include the likes of John Meadows or Stephen Boyd of the Scootacar Registry. They operate these organizations strictly for the personal satisfaction of ensuring that these makes survive the rigors of time. If they have a part, or indeed go thorough all the tremendous bother of remaking an original or even improved version of a no longer available part, they do their best to get the word out, and then charge just enough to cover their costs.
Now that is service a full order of magnitude higher in the realm of ethics and ideals, than a "club" that portends to be protecting something for its members, whilst additionally lining their pockets. The Mafiosa also sells this type of protection.
Let's hear it for the true enthusiast privateers, by giving them a token of our appreciation for not going the way of the profiteers.
Do we have a Hall of Fame or something like that yet?
We could have another category for people like Andy Carter who are creating high quality parts that would otherwise be unobtainable, and jeopardize the survival of some of our endangered species, and charging a fair price for their product.
I fully agree with you Steven that Stephen Boyd, John Meadows, Alan Budd and Mike Ayriss are doing a sterling job supplying parts and information for the lesser known microcars. These chaps do if for the love of the make and get little recognition for all their hard work so a 'Hall of Fame' sounds good.
Mark Green should also be in there for the tremendous work he is doing from your side of the pond for Frisky owners around the world.
The MOC were supplying the original type condenser until recently but I fully understand why they would not invest in tooling to re manufacture to original spec when alternatives are readily available, even if they only have one screw hole. Once in the black box it's never seen. Making and soldering an original type bracket onto a new condenser for total originality should not be beyond the average microcar owner.
-
The condenser in question. A prime example of where we are? A substitute is available, it would seem it can be made to look like a accurate replacement and is easy to alter, yet the club in question chooses not to do this. In this case that part is therefore a substitute available by buying membership (Including subsidising the free membership and magazine of all those members of 25 years or more free, a ponzi scheme produced with the best of intentions but a lack of clear thinking. Why is any member, even passed it, going to give up free magazines? The Bond Club chose to do the other)) and paying club overheads of expenses, VAT and profit. The alternative is to buy direct from a local supplier, the same part at possibly 50% cheaper. The choice is yours if you know all that info before you join the club. Did you know all this Steven? Like me do you see this as a rather bad deal.
You might ask why the club is tying its money up in buying a wrong part to sell at 50% more than the 'going rate'. They would offer the good reasoning of service to their members. Well is it? Could I buy a nice new ignition switch bezel, or a set of Roadster spinners remade. After all the club has been going for years reinvesting in new parts. These are special Messerschmitt parts that can be re manufactured. Not available. So more investment is needed, perhaps by not stocking lines available freely elsewhere to free up capitol to invest? Or the profit from these extra consumables is needed to run the service - sounding very much like a business taking a mark up to continue its trade and support an ever increasing overhead of free members. You can make your own mind up, none of this is wrong or immoral, unless the facts are denied or hidden from view.
Re look at the condenser. What else does it fit? Well most microcars, Villiers, Sachs, Excelsior, Anzani, Dolphin and other marine units, scooters, stationary engines etc etc. Indeed a wide range of small machines. As this style of condenser has gone out of stock, a wider market is open as they can substitute our type condensers for others no longer available using a bolt or clip connection. The clip itself can be reused, or taken from a worn old points set. So there is a potentially large market out there for a production run of items, after all the regulator is still being made. This requires a club to think beyond its membership of 500 odd, and in terms of decades of stock spread among other clubs using the same parts. It requires an elephant in the room to move away from the communications area so that dialogue is renewed between all the interested parties, like there used to be. Does the whole group who use this part constitute a big enough, financed order to make an accurate as possible reproduced condenser? Its called clubbing together. I do rather feel the clue is in the name. This is not happening, so we do not know if it could be that original style condensers can be made at a beneficial price for all users of this part, not just a few in an ivory tower (possibly made from previously inactive elephants in the room that died of boredom). This goes for a 100 other parts.
Communications have never been easier. Information exchange techniques never better. Yet there seems very infrequent contact between clubs these days. Add to that the doers, those skilled folk with the ability to make stuff from materials, or even successfully order and progress chase a project seem to be becoming rarer in the clubs and more prevalent doing their own thing outside clubs, often selling into a club things they choose to make off their own back. I know quite a number of these guys and it many cases it was a lack of co ordination, management and sudden withdrawals of support from committees that saw them go 'independent'. In a lot of cases its these part time businesses that keep the clubs going. The clubs become the intermediaries of a lot of small or none existent little businesses set up for pocket money. They buy up the stock, put on there profit and sell to the club member- who if he knows his way round can go direct to each little supplier and buy the same part cheaper. Thus many clubs are acting as retail businesses with at least part of their stock. Be honest, its true. They are not leading a managed and thought out logical investment in spares, but rather competing with the private sector in some cases, using business bully tactics to dictate they retain primary control of markets, rather than seeking to harness the creative folk and direct them to produce a range of goods in a constructive partnership.
The sad part of all this is it is so hard for a newbie to find his way through this labyrinth of supply and information. Folk like me who have been around for yonks have realized what was happening and selfishly bought up a lot of cheap parts, and directly sourced parts from the private constructors, full in the knowledge that the whole thing was drifting to a more expensive and possibly less well stocked spares situation. So now not only the creative guys, but the experienced guys, also, no longer need the clubs. They have the best cars, the spares and the information. The clubs need them though. Well time to start offering something worth having, like joined up thinking. Like all catch 22s that is rather difficult when much of the talent is holding most of the best stuff for itself, some collecting more still, than can ever be used by one person. A situation I am now re balancing as it becomes a drag.
-
Or, Al, a simpler explanation:
On condensors:
- Most people would use a different condensor (virtually any automotive condensor will work - go to Halfords!)
- Some want it to look right, so re-use the clip.
- Quite a few of the originals remain.
- Ergo, there's not really a strong market for getting them remade (otherwise a commercial trader would have done so).
On parts sold by clubs at higher prices than the market:
- clubs need to get special parts made, but really not the regular stuff.
- some club members actually want to get parts from the club (they're too far in the sticks to go searching the shops, and don't use computers). Yes, they even order a single spark plug, and pay the postage on the outward cheque and the inward parcel!
- the club can't compete with the big boys, so will be dearer, and wants to raise the funds for special parts. Why would they sell the regular parts more cheaply, and lower their ability to do that?
None of this seems "hidden" or scamming.
-
Congratulations Dave for making your case in a concise post.
Al, I got half way through yours and started to lose the will to live!
-
Examples are illustrations, literature is information to be read and digested. I follow my star, you can yours. Some are duds, others orbit, but the still others have the most interesting and unexplained trajectories.
-
great to see sense from dave and bob . steven and al will always see another side to it all , and al seems to have turned both the last two topics to his own personal rant site . bob you got HALF way through that of al's WELL DONE !! :)
-
At the end of the day we all have choice.
We can source, make, adapt or beg for our parts, or we can just buy them from other people that have already done this.
Its just you may have to pay a little more. But you have a choice. There is no point moaning about the rules because you do not have to buy them. Its like moaning about a TV program you do not like when all you have to do is switch off.
On a positive note i think half of the enjoyment of rebuilding our cars is finding or making parts and sharing information with like minded people.
I have had my say- I will get my coat.
-
any [/i]automotive condensor will work - go to Halfords!)
- Some want it to look right, so reuse the clip.
Thanks Dave.
This is all that I have needed to know all along, and is why Rumcars is the group to join.
Would the MOC have allowed this info to be made so public as it would jeopardize their sales to the ignorant?
I would feel a little better about their sales scheme if they let this fact be known to potential buyers.
But not better enough to pay twice as much plus postage to the US , plus waiting for a week or two, plus membership dues to a club that specializes in a car that I do not own so they can provide the privilege of free membership/ magazines to their oldest members.
Free countries gravitate towards competitive free markets. So this type of enforced market bullying will likely soon go the way of the Dodo bird. Besides, to the American in me- it just seems wrongly spirited to take advantage of information that they should otherwise share, or say that their enforced premiums subsidize their development of products, whilst this one should only have been marketed at a premium price if some effort was expended to make it appear more original.
Now for the next important point, as I did promptly travel a whole mile to my local auto parts store and just spend $6 on a similar looking can with a separate strap over bracket.
Can the old bracket be soldered to the new can without damaging it?
If so, anybody have any tips on an appropriate technique?
If I can get this info and also find a way to check to see if my efforts toward this end have damaged the unit internally- I may have a go at it.
If not I may have try epoxying it and hope that they don't run too hot. : ;)
-
...
Can the old bracket be soldered to the new can without damaging it?
...
If not I may have try epoxying it and hope that they don't run too hot. : ;)
You might get away with it, but it's not something I'd try. A healthy condensor will not be damaged by putting 12V directly across it (you can't "short" it to death) as that's what happens in use, but it certainly could be damaged by excess heat melting the internal insulation. I'm guessing that in manufacture they weld or solder by application of something very hot but very brief, so the heat doesn't have time to sink through?
Remember also that you need the case to conduct through to the mounting (earthed) - if there's a barrier of epoxy between clip and casing, that won't happen.
-
The originals were soldered to the bracket so I would attempt it. I have successfully re-soldered originals that have broken off the bracket (due to bad vibrations from a failing 250 Villiers).
At 6 dollars it's worth the risk :)
-
Examples are illustrations, literature is information to be read and digested. I follow my star, you can yours. Some are duds, others orbit, but the still others have the most interesting and unexplained trajectories.
Sorry Al. As you say, we all have our style. Frustration just got the better of me!
-
Frustration, with popomatic dice in a small Peel dome. i have no probs with folk disagreeing with me. I confess to being naughty by asking the wrong sort of questions. I think this game is done and we are back to the thread.
Would the solder used be a rather a soft lower temperature one? Perhaps applied to the case as a blob and then heat applied to the strap on its being mounted, a little like a pre soldered pipe joint? The flow of solder is bigger than the hole so its located until it fails or fractures. Someone more switched on perhaps could comment.
The real selling point for me is the spring clip connector. Do not know why it just appeals to me.
-
The real selling point for me is the spring clip connector. Do not know why it just appeals to me.
Probably the same reason I prefer original Bosch and Siba points with the same spring clip, simple, effective and totally reliable.
Ensure you 'tin' the end of the wire before putting into the spring clip. I learnt the hard way, a broken wire to the condenser on my first Bond was a regular reason for breaking down, happy days ;D
-
I would just use some tinmans solder with some Bakers number 3 and apply it quickly with a good hot copper soldering iron. Applied via the hole I would have thought. That's assuming you have the old gas heated soldering irons. I'm fortunate to have inherited all my fathers old soldering irons.
-
Got it.
Just the way I got an old timer to solder the lead to my NSU's dynastart back on 20 years ago, without heat damaging anything around it. A large amount of heat stored in a heavy externally heat sourced iron, touched for just the minimal amount of time to the work piece, and then withdrawn quickly, immediately followed by the application of the solder.
Now if I can just get US equivalents to the solder and if I am guessing right- flux that you are referring to, I will look around for a suitably sized and tapered piece if iron and give it a try. :)
-
No, the solder is applied to the iron and transferred to the job from the iron. Or course this will only work if the casing of your new condenser is steel using the stuff I mentioned. If you want to solder steel to alloy that's another matter and outside my experience, remember I only know caveman skills. Special fluxes do exist for that purpose all the same.
-
What is tinmans solder?
Is that a description e.g. a solder for repairing tin soldiers or the like, or a brand name?
What are its components and percentages of composition?
Same questions for bakers number 3.
thanks
-
As I said, I'm very old school, there were two main types of solder, Tinmans for sheet metal work , general metalwork and there was plumbers solder for wiping lead pipe joints. I'm talking about pre multicore here. You can use almost anything though, buy some modern solder that plumbers use for copper pipe work and give that a go. So long as all the surfaces are clean and fluxed it will be ok.
-
sorry to interrupt but how can you tell a one direction siba dynastart from a two direction one - at a glance , with no access to the points . would there just be a lot more wires running to the points cover ? thanks , i only have a photo
-
Does it have a condenser ;D
3 thick wire dynastart is one direction, 5 wire is both. Also two points wires required for uni directional. Looking at the picture I would say that's it one direction as its looks to have come from a scooter. No black box, so no reversing solenoid, so forward running only.
-
thanks it's what we thought then - i have a spare uni directional to go on it - and yes a condenser
-
Bump , Bump ,
I have been advised in red letters to start a new thread - but it would take to long for me to explain things , so here goes' ....
after reading this through from the beginning I'm surprised that its only the condenser that has failed , and no mention has been made towards the HT coil .
Engines fitted with Siba Dynastarters must use the Siba coil not a conventional car type , failing to do so could burn out the stator or control box , even known the coil to spilt apart , in this case lucky it was only the ignition condenser .
The reason is to hi-tec for the layman . but to put it simple Siba coils are reverse inside out wired .
Alan
-
You have me worried now Alan. I have recently fitted a 12v motorcycle coil on my latest car project with a siba dynastart. Is it going to fail; I wonder.
Then I got to thinking, my Isetta has a car coil fitted and is still fine after 20 years and I'm pretty sure my Schmitt had a new classic bike coil fitted some 14 years ago. None have suffered any damage to coil or condenser.
Its an interesting comment and I'm not doubting your claim but I want to know more. What about Bosch coils? Has anyone else had a problem using a standard coil? Maybe I have just been fortunate??
-
I've the Villiers/Siba service sheet , some were amongst the usual papers - I'll dg it out .
our Zetta wouldn't run with a car coil , replaced with a Siba and it now runs . (horrible things to say its BMW) It must have been one of the last re-built engine to come out of Grandfield Lawrence ! .
Alan
-
that would be -
-
Good to see some activity on this topic after so long a hiatus.
My Heinkel Trojan's coil has been so productively spewing its tarry guts in the last 6months of non use, that upon first examination I feared that a family of possums had moved into the garage and started to use it as their lavatory.
I could use a few good compatible coils for Frisky, Trojan and other micros, so am anxiously awaiting the verdict, as well as a suggestion of a good source for same.
I fear that I may be loosing the thread here though with the mention of a Zetta.
I have a Zeta Sport, and know of the Tritech Zettas. But the former are quite rare, especially of shore from Australia, and the latter usually come with a modern power plant, as they are replicas, and presumably would not be fitted with Siba parts.
I also see no mention of a Zetta in Richard's interesting period Bond poster.
What am I missing here?
Richard, I hope you haven't missed your horribly flattened and taped high tension lead to the sparking plug on your single direction rotating Villiers engine.
-
Steven that Villiers engine long since gone and how could anyone miss that HT lead . I am sure that engine was in the same condition as when it was last used but it's high on a new owners priority list.
-
I'm not an auto electrician and may be totally wrong but I fail to see what difference it makes what coil you use other than ballast resister/non ballast resister type so long as its a canister type coil..
Isnt it just a matter of power feed to one terminal and the points interrupter to the other. How does this simple circuitry have any effect on a stator, regulator or condenser? I just don't see it.
MY Isetta has run for donkeys years with a lucas coil and my ex schmitt with a motorcycle coil mounted in the black box where the bosch or siba original once was. My Bobette is fitted with Villiers 9e and siba box also runs perfectly with a new wassel coil. Cant see the problem or am I missing something here?
-
Ditto.