RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: Modman on October 08, 2008, 11:38:22 AM
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Unused and unregistered from private collection , 250 PIAGGIO powered , 4 speed plus reverse , well preserved , OIRO £4000
MAIL : johnbromby@aol.com :) ::)
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Now on ebay at £3995 Lovely little car but price is away with the fairies. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/G-WIZ-FANTASTIC-EARLY-70S-LAWIL-BERLINA-MICRO-CAR_W0QQitemZ280276058096QQihZ018QQcategoryZ2192QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Now on ebay at £3995 Lovely little car but price is away with the fairies.
*snort!* great line Bob, I'm just glad I was not drinking something when I read it.
otherwise it would be all over my keyboard....
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Calm down mates, calm down. Anyway we must not buy this extortion !!
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Glad you liked the line Jim. Its actually one I borrowed from P50. He uses it alot. I suppose in the final analisis if you were to buy an average one for about £1000 and wanted to bring it up to concourse condition you could spend a few thousand doing so and fall not far short of this guys asking price. Thats assuming that this one is as good as he portrays it to be. Has anyone successfully registered one in the uk though?
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Glad you liked the line Jim. Its actually one I borrowed from P50. He uses it alot
Noted! ;)
4 grand? It aint no uber rare thing. Wonder how he arrived at that figure?
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Hi
Like you say with almost zero miles it's as good as you are going to get.
Price is probably just a guess, the same as we all do with cars that are not seen every day.
I would have thought it is still O.T.T. but who knows, when it comes to crazy cars there are some crazy people out there prepared to pay, it's all down to being in the right place at the right time and luck.
John
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Thanks chaps for such a spirited induction, ultimately it is worth what someone will pay, is there another in the Planet and how much would YOU pay for this little GEM , the best bid by the end of the auction will buy it!
REGARDS
THE Modman
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the best bid by the end of the auction will buy it!
It would also be the ONLY bid as you have not set it up as an "auction".
It is "Buy It Now" for £3995
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How much would I pay? £1500
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Styling wise I've seen better! I wouldn't confuse if with a Peel Trident as it trundled past!
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HI CHAPS - THE LAWIL HAS DONE 22KMS FROM NEW - THE EBAY AUCTION WILL GO TO 'BEST OFFERS' TOMMOROW - SO IF YOU ARE INTERESTED YOU CAN PUT YOUR BEST OFFER IN - CANNOT BE ANY FAIRER!
REGARDS the Modman!
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Hi
It's certaily going to be the best of it's type.
Good luck
John ;D
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THANKS FOR THAT - IT IS NOW ON EBAY WITH BEST OFFERS - BUT PLEASE BE SENSIBLE BECAUSE £1500 DOES NOT EVEN BUY A DECENT SIT ON LAWN MOWER THESE DAYS - MANY THANKS TO YOUR FORUM!
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I am now the owner of the infamous Lawil Berlina?
Now I need to find out everything about Lawil.
Is there anyone out there who knows anything at all?
The internet has practically nothing as far as I can see.
I will try to get it registered and for this the most important thing is to get a manufacture date for it.
Are there any records available for the production runs on this car - has anyone else got one so that I can compare chassis numbers with registered cars.
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Hi Isetta owner. You are right, there is not much information out there. Your one looks like a very late one on account of the grill etc. Ignore modmans hype, these car can be bought very reasonably and are not all that rare especially in france, hence us all taking the mick a little. Mine cost £450, another sold at the bubblecar auction the other week for I think £1200 [the van version]. There are a lot of Fiat 500 parts on them and the BCB engine uses a lambretta electronic ignition system. There is some history of the mk and the various models covered in the Micromania book by Chris Rees. Hope this helps.
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Bob
Thanks for the information.
I am not too worried about the price (it was no where near £4000) my offer was £1500 but thats another story
It is in very good condition but I suspect a respray at some point and a new speedo to make it look authentic.
Either this or the original spray was fairly poor.
I am happy anyway.
I just need to try to get a date of manufacture. Before Jan 1973 and I won't have to pay tax.
Is your one on-the-road? Has it ever been registered in the UK? If so is it normal class 4 MOT - any special requirement on seat belts and emmissions.
Any trechnical details or literature (I can scan copy & return) would be a graet help.
Regards
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Denis has a comprehensive list on Willam on his website: http://www.microcarfan.com and may know a thing or two about Lawil.
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Hi
I have one of these willam van's, This is the second one I've brought into the country from france where they were fairly common, they were produced in Italy from an assortment of parts mainly Lamberetta and Fiat 500. your car looks to be late 70's theirfore you will have to pay tax on it .
From the look of it and the late grill I'd say it was 76 - 77, they made them between 72 -79, Autolit in America has a handbook on one for about £60, it is in French and it deals with your model as well as the van - you may find one at one the the French autojumbles, a bit cheaper than this, but you have to go to france, I have a brochure for one in my collection.
Mike
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Hi. My one now belongs to my neighbor, its still unregistered and I have heard of others having great difficulty in getting these later sans permis cars registered in the uk. It is running but only after replacing the electronic ignition system, it appears that this is the main reason for the large amount of nonrunners. I guessed your one had been resprayed by the antistone chip skirt painted around the edge, the original paint finish on them is good quality, still if the mileage is correct it should be very good mechanically. I have emailed you a photo of a brochure, I dont have it anymore otherwise I would scan it for you. Cheers, Bob
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Denis has a comprehensive list on Willam on his website: http://www.microcarfan.com and may know a thing or two about Lawil.
Thanks Blob. That has been very helpful.
I saw a car like the one in your picture on a camp site in Northern France earlier this year. Chateaux Des Ormes
Was it you.
I don't know much about them - tell me more.
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Hi
I have one of these willam van's, This is the second one I've brought into the country from france where they were fairly common, they were produced in Italy from an assortment of parts mainly Lamberetta and Fiat 500. your car looks to be late 70's theirfore you will have to pay tax on it .
From the look of it and the late grill I'd say it was 76 - 77, they made them between 72 -79, Autolit in America has a handbook on one for about £60, it is in French and it deals with your model as well as the van - you may find one at one the the French autojumbles, a bit cheaper than this, but you have to go to france, I have a brochure for one in my collection.
Mike
Thanks for the information Mike. Eny information or photo's would be great to see. I am thinking of putting a site together so mthat the Lawil is better understood.
Has yours ever been on-the-road in England. Any MOT problems. Any advice.
I will need to be able to date my one with some evidence or an expert opinion so that I can get an age related plate. Is there a list of Chassis numbers anywhere?
Do you know of any Lawil Berlina's A4 (I assume thats what my one is) in the country that I could compare chassis numbers with? Any literature that I could borrow and scan (for a pint) would be appreciated.
Barry
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Hi. My one now belongs to my neighbor, its still unregistered and I have heard of others having great difficulty in getting these later sans permis cars registered in the uk. It is running but only after replacing the electronic ignition system, it appears that this is the main reason for the large amount of nonrunners. I guessed your one had been resprayed by the antistone chip skirt painted around the edge, the original paint finish on them is good quality, still if the mileage is correct it should be very good mechanically. I have emailed you a photo of a brochure, I dont have it anymore otherwise I would scan it for you. Cheers, Bob
You are in Essex Bob! - so am I
Forgive my ignorance but 'Sans permis' ? Are there a lot of them that have never been registered, even in their native country? - perhaps used on private land / holiday camps?
I will do my best to get this one on the road.
Initially, my car did not want to start but the exhaust (and probably engine) was full of fuel. I don't think the carb is shutting off the fuel fully and perhaps the tap has been left on under the bonnet.
It starts well now and has a fantastic spark on both plugs. It is very erratic at low revs however. I am told it is a Ducati engine?
As the carb looks new, I wonder if it is the right one and has the correct jets. It is a delorto SH20 - similar to my Lambretta. I would like to check with someone who has an identical Lawil.
I think it may be that the choke is not fully off. I haven't had much time to have a good fiddle yet.
Is your Neighbour still talking to you? I would like it if he could have a talk to me at some time.
My Lawil
All of the hidden places and the underside look like they have never been touched. Underneath looks fairly untouched from new. However there a few signs that it has done a few miles more than the speedo suggests.
I think it is a very low milage car that has been stored for most of it's life. Perhaps it had a ding and was not used. I think it has had an outside spray, possibly some time ago, and a new speedo to make it look even lower on the milage.
The paint finish has a few blemishes that you only get on a novice spray job. I will soon have these sorted out.
I doubt that there is a better Lawil about (in Essex).
Barry
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Forgive my ignorance but 'Sans permis' ? Are there a lot of them that have never been registered, even in their native country? - perhaps used on private land / holiday camps?
Probably all of them were never registered as that was the point behind "Sans Permis" : Without Permit
The cars were designed to be used by people who did not need a driver's permit; teenagers, the elderly, drunks that had their licenses revoked or just anyone who did not want or need or could not afford a "proper" drivers license.
There are modern versions of these vehicles in Italy and France. They either have 50cc motors in them or VERY tiny electric motors.
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Forgive my ignorance but 'Sans permis' ? Are there a lot of them that have never been registered, even in their native country? - perhaps used on private land / holiday camps?
Probably all of them were never registered as that was the point behind "Sans Permis" : Without Permit
The cars were designed to be used by people who did not need a driver's permit; teenagers, the elderly, drunks that had their licenses revoked or just anyone who did not want or need or could not afford a "proper" drivers license.
There are modern versions of these vehicles in Italy and France. They either have 50cc motors in them or VERY tiny electric motors.
Thanks for that info Jim. I have a lot to learn (and not many years left to do it in).
Sans Permis - with a 250cc engine?
I can see now that the UK may not accept the Lawil on British roads. We will see!
Your comments are always useful - I have discovered this from the Isetta forum.
Cheers
Barry
Would anyone object if I fitted twin 40mm delortos and a couple of individual expansion chambers.
I think it should rev to at least 8,000 instead of 4,000 which should take it to 80mph (only joking)
Barry
Barry
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Hi Barry
My william has been off the road since importing it from france - these were not Sans Permis cars and vans because the smaller version had a 125cc engine and the Sans Permis had to have a 50cc or smaller petrol engine in them and some form of going forward withoiut the help of the engine ( like a pedal on the floor, or a lever).
Crayford Conversions did sell a handfull of cars when ther first appeared in the early seventies and they were registered and on the road so perhaps you could contact them to see about getting yours registered (contact the Crayford Club) - In Italy they did have a few bigger engin cars, and I suspect yours came from Italy, I seem to remember one posted some two years ago on the Italian ebay site and it was claimed as being low milage.
I remember I bought a French hand book at last years Retromobile Show containing imformation about my Van - whether it contains info on your car I will try and find it and see - I collect information about all Microcars.
Mike
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Hi Barry
My william has been off the road since importing it from France - these were not Sans Permis cars and vans because the smaller version had a 125cc engine and the Sans Permis had to have a 50cc or smaller petrol engine in them and some form of going forward without the help of the engine ( like a pedal on the floor, or a lever).
Crayford Conversions did sell a handfull of cars when ther first appeared in the early seventies and they were registered and on the road so perhaps you could contact them to see about getting yours registered (contact the Crayford Club) - In Italy they did have a few bigger engine cars, and I suspect yours came from Italy, I seem to remember one posted some two years ago on the Italian eBay site and it was claimed as being low milage.
I remember I bought a French hand book at last years Retromobile Show containing information about my Van - whether it contains info on your car I will try and find it and see - I collect information about all Microcars.
Mike
Mike
You have given me the best news yet. If Crayford managed to get them on-the-road I stand much more chance of convincing the DVLA.
I will definitely need some evidence of the date of the car. My friend, Brian Page, at Classic Assessments will be able to write a suitable letter if he has some facts to work from.
I was told that my one came from Italy and has been stored in the UK for some time. It could be the same car.
Is there any chance that the van will be drivable in the near future?
Thanks for your help. Whatever I find out and any literature I collect will be at your disposal.
Barry
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Hi Barry
It so happens that a neibour of mine runs a Crayford car ( It was on display at the NEC Show) and his brother is secretary of the club - when I see him I will get information from him.
Did you Know that the RUM club can also write you a letter confirming the date of your car but they would need some concrete proof that the date your submitting was geunine.
Mike
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Hi Barry
It so happens that a neighbour of mine runs a Crayford car ( It was on display at the NEC Show) and his brother is secretary of the club - when I see him I will get information from him.
Did you Know that the RUM club can also write you a letter confirming the date of your car but they would need some concrete proof that the date your submitting was genuine.
Mike
More good news Mike
Thank you very much. I discovered that the Crayford Convertible club don't have an e-mail or web contact. I will have to phone at a reasonable hour.
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Barry
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Hi Barry. Where abouts in Essex are you, I'm in Hornchurch. My friend who owns my old car now lives in Romford. The car is a 125cc BCB single cylinder model. I will ask him if he minds you contacting him. Bob
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I saw a car like the one in your picture on a camp site in Northern France earlier this year. Chateaux Des Ormes
Was it you. I don't know much about them - tell me more.
The car in my avatar picture is a Nissan Pivo concept EV, which has a canopy that pivots 180º doing away with the need for reverse. This was the original design, however Nissan has since developed the idea by building the Pivo 2 with a front door reminiscent of the Isetta and wheels that rotate, clever stuff.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2aSfbGUYQ&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Ijsfg4tx4
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Hi Barry. Where abouts in Essex are you, I'm in Hornchurch. My friend who owns my old car now lives in Romford. The car is a 125cc BCB single cylinder model. I will ask him if he minds you contacting him. Bob
Bob
I am just down the 127 in Rayleigh. Almost doable in a Lawil!
Barry
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I saw a car like the one in your picture on a camp site in Northern France earlier this year. Chateaux Des Ormes
Was it you. I don't know much about them - tell me more.
The car in my avatar picture is a Nissan Pivo concept EV, which has a canopy that pivots 180º doing away with the need for reverse. This was the original design, however Nissan has since developed the idea by building the Pivo 2 with a front door reminiscent of the Isetta and wheels that rotate, clever stuff.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2aSfbGUYQ9
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Ijsfg4tx4
Thanks for the links Blob - Fantastic
Barry
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Hi Barry. Where abouts in Essex are you, I'm in Hornchurch. My friend who owns my old car now lives in Romford. The car is a 125cc BCB single cylinder model. I will ask him if he minds you contacting him. Bob
Bob
I am just down the 127 in Rayleigh. Almost doable in a Lawil!
Barry
Bob and everyone.
I now have a two page road test from Autosport - Feb 1974.
I have scanned it as a readable pdf but don't know how / if I should make it available to anyone who is interested.
I have a high quality jpg but might have to reduce the 42mb file size !!!
I don't think there are any copyright issues are there?
Barry
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"Did you Know that the RUM club can also write you a letter confirming the date of your car but they would need some concrete proof that the date your submitting was geunine."
So please don't forget to put your car on the Register as soon as possible, you can download a registration form from this web site to do so. This reminder goes to any other Lawil owner too, or owners of any rare microcars for that matter, We need them on the Register then we are in a better position to help all 'newbies' as they come along.
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"Did you Know that the RUM club can also write you a letter confirming the date of your car but they would need some concrete proof that the date your submitting was genuine."
So please don't forget to put your car on the Register as soon as possible, you can download a registration form from this web site to do so. This reminder goes to any other Lawil owner too, or owners of any rare microcars for that matter, We need them on the Register then we are in a better position to help all 'newbies' as they come along.
I will definitely put it on the register now that I know more about it.
Quote from Mike (googo) 'From the look of it and the late grill I'd say it was 76 - 77,' - I don't suppose that will do as proof!!!
Proof of it's exact date of manufacture is a little bit elusive.
I will try Denis in France next but I really need some manufacturing data from the Lawil factory.
Regards to all
Barry
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Dear Barry,
Congratulations for this nice buy!
Your Lawil isn’t a version built for France.
Few reasons:
All French one were sold under the name Willam never Lawil (Even if the name Lawil was on the identification plaque near the engine)
All French models were some 125 cm3. Just a 175 cm3 was available on the very first generation with Lambretta engine (End of the 60’s ).
The two cylinder BCB engine 250 cm3 type A52 was too big for our “without licence French driversâ€!
Difficult for me to give good information about age!
Certainly beginning of the 80’s (or very last years of the 70’s ).
Sorry, all documentation and technical information I own are about 125cm3.
Hope an Italian reader will be able to give us more than I…
Regards
Denis
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Dear Barry,
Congratulations for this nice buy!
Your Lawil isn't a version built for France.
Few reasons:
All French one were sold under the name Willam never Lawil (Even if the name Lawil was on the identification plaque near the engine)
All French models were some 125 cm3. Just a 175 cm3 was available on the very first generation with Lambretta engine (End of the 60’s ).
The two cylinder BCB engine 250 cm3 type A52 was too big for our “without licence French driversâ€!
Difficult for me to give good information about age!
Certainly beginning of the 80’s (or very last years of the 70’s ).
Sorry, all documentation and technical information I own are about 125cm3.
Hope an Italian reader will be able to give us more than I…
Regards
Denis
Thanks for contacting me Denis
At least I can cross France off as a source for a manufacturing date - Italy it is then.
All I need is to find a similar car with a chassis number somewhere near 0000000119
There could be some records left over from the factory perhaps.
The chassis plate states A4.
I am told it is a Berlina but I haven't come across this name in my research.
I have road test from Autosport - 1974, that quotes Crayford Auto Developments of Westerham imported them using the name William.
This means that they were used on UK roads - left hand drive in the photos. These had the 250cc twin engine like my one.
I will try to find out how long they carried on importing.
I wonder if anyone in England still has one of these (in any condition) to compare chassis numbers?.
Is there a record of when they ceased production at the factory in Milan? At least that would put a last possible date on the car.
Regards
Barry
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Hi Barry
Crayford only imported 7 vehicles - they did not sell well, Have you got in contact with the Crayford Club, I'm sure they will be able to tell you how many there are on the road - I know of one of them but Crayford cars had a very high survival rate - I have discovered they were built up to 84 and I agree with Dennis that yours was one of the last built - weather it was late 70's or early 80's. the chassis no is A4 and then the number, not just the number - I hope this helps you, I have dug out of my collection the Willam habdbook, but it only deals with the 125cc engine and is in French - you are welcome to have a copy of it, I need your address to send it to you.
Mike
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Hi Barry
Crayford only imported 7 vehicles - they did not sell well, Have you got in contact with the Crayford Club, I'm sure they will be able to tell you how many there are on the road - I know of one of them but Crayford cars had a very high survival rate - I have discovered they were built up to 84 and I agree with Dennis that yours was one of the last built - weather it was late 70's or early 80's. the chassis no is A4 and then the number, not just the number - I hope this helps you, I have dug out of my collection the Willam handbook, but it only deals with the 125cc engine and is in French - you are welcome to have a copy of it, I need your address to send it to you.
Mike
Mike
That's great information and I would love a copy of any literature.
I will contact the Crayford club ASAP.
My road test is from 74 and shows pictures of the soft top Jeep style car. if Crayford only imported 7 vehicles, the chances are that they won't help in dating my later version.
e-mail on barry@vividimage.demon.co.uk for my address - Thanks again Mike
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Richard - Just found something from 2008.
I still have the Lawil and I still don't know when it was made.
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Barry ! This topic is from FIVE years ago ! Ho ho ho rofl :D
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hi all,
Im from Austria-Vienna and restored (frame off rest) my 1973 LAWIL
if you need info help where to get parts (very small parts are Fiat500!- its a story) most of them are rare parts from Fiat650 giardinera 1958-1961
price I bought it for 300€ 95% rustfree, restore it and invest ca.6500€ and if I find one who does it cheaper- good luck its an normal car as other ones ;D
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genbua. Hello.
It would be very good to talk to some more about your lovely Lawil.
I need to find out when my Lawil was made.
Perhaps one day you could take a good photo of your chassis plate.
Here is my car. They make a nice pair.