RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: adi on March 17, 2009, 12:01:21 AM
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I know this sounds a little silly, but i genuinely cant find it, where the hell does the speedo cable bolt into on the villiers power unit in my scootacar?
When i flipped the schassis over, i saw the speedo cable just hanging there, and i actually couldnt find where it bolts to at all.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks
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I know this sounds a little silly, but i genuinely cant find it, where the hell does the speedo cable bolt into on the villiers power unit in my scootacar?
When i flipped the schassis over, i saw the speedo cable just hanging there, and i actually couldnt find where it bolts to at all.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks
Can't actually speak for the Scootacar, but my Bond Minicar mkD uses the same Villiers 9e engine. The speedo drive is not taken from the engine, but from the nearside wheel hub! ;D My guess is that on such a ubiquitous engine as the 9e, used on bikes and cars of all types, with all sorts of wheel sizes, it would be pointless providing a speedo drive from the engine itself.
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Dear Adi
I would agree with Rayburrow as the speedo drive would never have come off the engine, otherwise it would be a rev counter. Off the gearbox maybe, but more likely off one of the wheels. On early VW beetles it connected to a square hole in the front wheel brake hub with a split pin. So it could be something that simple.
Where are all the scootacar owners when you want them?
Chris Thomas
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On pretty much all beetles its connected like you said to the hub through a square driver, although correctly its supposed to be a circlip and not a splitpin, but this is a common mod.
Im sorry, i think i may have written this in a slightly confusing way, due to lack of experience with these things. When i said power unit, i meant the whole engine/gearbox/chain/rear wheel assembly.
The reason im asking is because the cable is dangling near the gearbox, and is routed there through several clamps mounted on the schassis, and also through a hole in the schassis, and is also way too long to reach the front hubs.
So its long enough to reach the rear engine/gearbox area, is dangling under the engine/gearbox area, and is held in place by clamps and holes for its route, going to the engine and gearbox area. The patina/rust/oil on the cable and its calmps suggests nothing has moved for a very long time.
So, that makes me assume that, it must connect to SOMETHING in the engine/gearbox area.
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The Scootacar makes use of a speedo drive from the gearbox. This is located on the underside of the box and between the 2 sides of the engine cradle. The speedodrive is above 3" long and 1 wide with a very fine threaded piece sticking out to thread the cable onto. You require a 'fork' drive that fits into the speedo cable (which often getsm lost when the cable is removed) and is pushed into the speedo drive and is held in place by threading the collar on the cable onto the above mentioned fine threaded piece. New cables for the Mk1 are available from Speedy Cables at reasonable cost.
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That seems like a definitive answer to your question!
It is also worth remembering when working on cars from the 50s, made on and for tiny budgets, that things often changed from one batch to the next. Also previous owners may have made mods/replacements which give false clues to how things should be. When I was re-building a Velorex we had all sorts of guessing games due to the car's history of mods and botches, and wasted a lot of time trying to figure out how to get things "right", then found that mine NEVER had the part I was trying to get right!
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Ah, ok, thanks for the info, i will look again for the speedo drive.
Odd how the speedo cable would be disconneted tho. And how i positivly could NOT find a drive for it. I mean...i COULD have just missed, but im pretty sure that even after no breakfast and alot of welding fumes, i would still have noticed it. And i looked for it specially.
Is it possible that the car has had an engine transplant, like for example, an engine from a bike or something, which would not have the scootacar specific cable drive?
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That's the kind of scenario you have to be prepared for! Sadly a speedo is a legal requirement, but if you come across an insurmountable problem here, the law does not define what type of speedo. so a suitably modified magnetic/electronic bicycle speedo is legal, as long as you can persuade the MOT tester! One of the only retrospective law for cars is that if they have a full width fixed windscreen then they must have wiper(s) and screen washer, even if not originally fitted to the vehicle. When I had a Velorex I used a squeeze-trigger Windolene bottle and some fine plastic tube, it worked it passed
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"So long as you can persuade the MOT tester"? As far as I know speedo function is not a part of the MOT test. I have never seen my examiner test a speedo on any of my vehicles old or modern. Then again, I might just have an ify examiner. Talking of dodgy MOT's, I was talking to an old AC ace owner for Surrey yesterday who told me that when his MOT ran out he would simply call his local garage and tell them, they would reply " Oh, I will put one in the post for you. Those were the days!
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I consulted a local MOT tester whilst getting my Velorex running what was the minimum amount of stuff I needed to have fitted and working, and he said speedo was needed, but I don't think he checked it, he was happy to know that I had asked and made the effort to get everything prepared according to his advice. I had no head lghts ("if it's not fitted, it does not need to work!), just brake lights and indicators, washer and wiper. Other laws (Construction and Use) would be used against me if I was driving a car without headlights in dark/bad weather. But like you, I have never had anyone check speedo on any vehicle I have put in for MOT.
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Seams like Adi just needs to stuff the other end of the speedo cable in a hole somewhere and forget about it then! No, I think he will want it working as he strikes me as the kind of guy who does things properly and quite right too!
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Hey.
Well, the issue of a working speedo for mot is well debated, and i know it well, remember, speedos dont always behave when fitted with non standard wheels or hubs/axles from another vehicle. Its something that i know well but is beyond the scope of this thread.
If i wanted to get it a MOT like it was, im sure there would be ways around this, like you said, stuffing it into somewhere, etc. Mot testers are human too, cant notice everything at once, etc etc etc you know the story.
But this is not the issue here.
The issue is, i want to know how fast im going! Remember, this car isnt a museum exibit, i will actually DRIVE it sometimes, so a functioning speedo is an advantage.
Sure, i could use a sat-nav, but i would prefer to get the original speedo working, as its THERE, might as well make it work. It would bug me otherwise.
Iv been beach-fishing today (ugh...how many times will they drag me out fishing....you never catch anything...its a waste of time), so i havnt had the chance to look at the car much.
I will be sure to look for the speedo driver.
As a side note, while im here, does anyone happen to have a big list of scootacar engine and schassis numbers? Because if mine is the original engine, then it must have the speedo driver. If anyone happens to have such a list, i will find what my schassis/engine number is, i have it written somewhere.
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I quite agree about knowing how fast you are going, and regard any reasonably reliable device for that as essential (e.g. cycle speedo), because there are lots of speed cameras these days. The reason for something like a "daylight" MOT/jury rigged/stripped down spec is that it can permit you to use the car on the road (carefully perhaps!) which is a good way of testing it all out while you finalise the details and get everything nicely adjusted
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All Mk1 Scootacar engine numbers start with 714B. This was the unique code that Villiers gave to the 9E blower/dynastart engines supplied to Hunslet. The later Mk2 with the updated 9E start with the code 192D.
9E engines were a very popular power unit and were fitted to endless british bikes as well as Bond Minicars. Few however had a fan fitted to cool the cylinder which makes the 9E blower fitted to the Mk1 Scootacar, Frisky, some Invalid Carriages (Sir Cyphus will be able to list them) and Bond Scooters very rare.
I find my Scootacar speedo works very well and is accurate with an acheiveable top speed of 62mph !
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I tried the link on Rumcars web for the Scootacar Register (www.scootacar.org.uk) but it seems this does not open and is unobtainable. Is there a new site for Scootacars?
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Mine looks like 418F 25137.
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With a code like 418F, it sounds to me like you've got a replacement Villiers Mk 11E engine in there in place of the original mk 9E liump. A Mk 11E with code 419F & belived to be from a conveyance went through eBay only last week & was nabbed by a cetain person who pops up here from time to time..... ;)
Elsewhere, such codes as I've observed on invalid carriage engines are 310F being AC Acedes & 313F being Invacar Mk 12.
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Hmm...thats wierd, but predictable i guess.
Would a 11e be different from a 9e? It seems to be thesame single cylinder 2 stroke with reversing dynostarter and forced air cooling.
Would it have a hole for the speedo drive or not, being a 11e rather then a 9e?
Is it possible that it was a one-off factory mix-and-match job? After all, with low volume production stuff like bubble cars, i believe it was common for batches to be slightly different, different fittings, etc. So maybe on the particular day they made mine (schassis no 426) they were all out of 9e engines and stuck in a 11e? That happened with indicators, lights, door handles, and a multitude of other stuff, right?
The reason im asking, the car has only had one owner, a lady, officially it had 3, me and the junk yard too, but the only real owner was the lady.
And i think looking at the engine mounting bolts etc, they havnt moved for a looooong time. So either our good freind Mrs D. Miller from Sherbourne, Dorset blew the 9e and had it replaced with an 11e very early on in the cars life...or that engine has been in there since day 1.
But...also...someone must have stuck the wierd home made exhaust on there...somehow i dont think Mrs D. Miller would want a super loud exhaust...maybe she had a secret boy-racer streak in her and didnt tell anyone ;D Havnt found any NOS fittings yet...
The mystery thickens.
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Initially the 11E is an upgraded version of the 9E and can be employed to power a microcar, however there are major differences to the gearbox, Bob P. can address this in detail, as he's been fiddling with them of late.
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If you post a photo of the engine we can tell you if its a 9e or 11e. If its an 11e from an invalid carrage it will have no speedo drive because on a carraige the speedo is driven from elswhere, not the engine gearbox unit. The other possibility is that the original engine blew up and Hunslets supplied an 11e replacement because thats what they were using to power mk2 scootercars.
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I called up the guy at Villiers Services, and he said it aint unfortunatly all that simple, that i could have the casting that has the engine number from a 11e, while having an engine thats actually mostly 9e parts, and basically having an engine number is about as useful as an engine number of a VW beetle. All it tells you is what vehicle the engine number plate/casting was originally bolted to!
Because parts are so interchangeble, i could have a real pick-n-mix of an engine...which of course im very much used to, having had mainley beetles.
Mine does not have a speedo drive it seems, just the un-machined casting blank where it should be.
But apparintly getting that casting but with a speedo cable is pretty easy, according to the villiers service guy, or if mine is mainley a 11e, he said i could think about swapping it for a 9e unit since the ratios would be wrong.
But, before making further plans, and many more questions um sure ::), it what DO i have? A 9e with no speedo drive and the number of a 11e? A straight 11e? Or a mix-and-match concoction made from random parts of both?
Pictures:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/engines1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/engines2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/engines3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/enginetop.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/enigineunder.jpg)
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It's an 11E
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Yep! Thats an 11E alright. Wonder if it has a posative stop gear box? The gearboxes on the invalid carraiges were not. I wouldnt worry too much about it, they are mostly the same inside. A few casting differences and gear ratio's which can be altered by changing the final drive sprocket. I would press on with that engine and see how it drives.
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Hmm...so as long as i get a gearbox casing with a speedo drive, it would be alright.
So, whats this positive stop gearbox thing? Whats it do and how is it different to a normal box?
Are all the ratios in the 11e different, or ust the 1st? Someone said that the invalid carriage 11e has a higher 1st gear but thesame 3 other gears.
Or are they all different? Higher or lower? Higher wouldnt be so bad, would keep the revvs down in long fast cruising.
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This is what I have been told. 9e ratio's 1. 3.25 2. 1.96 3. 1.40 4. 1.00
11e ratios 1. 2.95 2. 1.80 3. 1.35 4. 1.00
It appears that fourth gear is the only one thats the same. 9e and 11e gearboxes are interchangable so you could have either.
Possative stop means that each time you change gear the lever selects the gear and then stops, the lever has to return to its resting place before you can select the next gear. Sequential non possative stop means that there is nothing stoping you sail through the whole gearbox, 1st to 4th in one swoop! As you move the lever forward and into gear the lever stays in that possition and its angle increases as you move through the gearbox. Invalid carrages have a set of gates that the side of the lever drop into so you know where you are.
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Mine appears to be the usual bike type set up.
From neutral you go forward for first gear. Then for 2nd, back through neutral to 2nd. For 3rd, you go forward to the 'neutral' (middle) position again, and click it back to 3rd. For 4th its thesame, let the lever return to the center and click it back again.
So like a bike, only a gear knob and not a pedal.
So thats like a normal positive stop scootacar rather then like an invalid car, right? But then why no speedo drive an a 11e engine? Big mash-up of parts?