RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: Bob Purton on January 30, 2010, 11:26:16 pm
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1961-MESSERSCHMITT-FMR-TG500-TIGER-CLASSIC-CAR-ORIGINAL_W0QQitemZ260545406566QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomobiles_UK?hash=item3ca9b76666
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same car as from this thread:
http://www.rumcars.org/forum/index.php?topic=2050.0
but no sale in the USA so now it seems to be offered on UK eBay.
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Ahh, the Ponderosa Tiger again. A lovely car indeed and in sound condition.
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Someone has bid £12K .... yeah, right!
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Dear National Lottery
When this car was offered on US ebay I felt it was only fair that you fixed it for me to win the Lottery, now that it is on sale on UK ebay I think it is even more important that you fix it for me to win.
Thank you.
Marcus.
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The auction ended this evening at a Pawtry £44,600 unsold. Not so valuable after all?
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Interesting...
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I thought they were highly prized and extremely valuable and people were paying lots and lots of money for them.
or SO I HAVE BEEN TOLD. :P
Last time around this car was bid up to £55K
look what happened when he lowered the Reserve!
The bids went lower too!
As if people wanted to bid but did not want to end up having to pay for it.
imagine that.
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The auction ended this evening at a Pawtry £44,600 unsold.
Petty cash eh, Bob?!
Next time a TG 500 comes up for sale, chuck few K my way!
I think the owner believed the price hype and is probably feeling a little underwhelmed at this.
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Marcus , all you have to do is sell a couple of drum kits and you would had the lolly! ;)
So come on then, what does all this mean? Jim and myself [both no strangers to the sale rooms] along with others suggested that some of the prices banded about were hype and we got slated on the forum for even suggesting it. Were we right or has the economic downturn suddenly bitten? I would imagine that the people who could afford these cars five years ago could still afford them now. Lets have your views.
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Depends who is selling, where they are selling and how they are selling. I am not convinced eBay is the place for highest prices but rather the opposite. If wealthy collectors are the top of the market how many of them have time or inclination to watch eBay auctions. These guys see something they want and buy it. They are not really into bidding over a week or so watching as they have bigger fish to fry. The market for top prices is therefore directed at what they do have time to look at, like Bruce's Museum clearouts or a top auction in the correct location. Their hobby is collecting/investment while living in a way we can only imagine. EBay itself has changed character and is much more populated by the traders than it used to be. The poor economic times have played into their hands.
My understanding is this car had a very substantial offer made for it which was turned down. It is therefore alledged to be known to be beyond what the collectors will pay and of no interest to them at that price. Putting it on eBay has only served to prove there is no other market for the car at top money other than the collectors. The rest of us who do watch auctions frustrated as stuff is out of our buying power can only talk about it and it is not worth anyone bidding on as we all know it is going to be too much money. Thus the car is not finding a market at the moment even if it is bid up in some naughty way. Has the owner in fact overplayed his hand and devalued this car in proving that few are interested in it at top money? I do not doubt there are offers in place which are below that which the owner wishes to sell but above that which we, the impoverished enthusiasts, would be able to pay. This is because our hobby is framed at lower prices and with an element of hands on work and usage.
It is frustrating but I believe that is the reality. We are looking at two differing hobbies with one demanding the rare and perfect cars the other less well off hobby value too but for slightly differing reasons. I have accepted that I have to alter my expectations of cars I can afford and in time I either have to accept my little collection gets to be a to large a proportion of my value in cash on the planet or adjust, releasing some cars, so I can justify the collection value in proportion to my income. This means looking at vehicles I had previously dismissed or changing to another area of interest altogether if I wish to continue to find new projects. Fortunately like many Microcar owner I actually have more work in hand than I can really cope with if I am honest so I am slightly insulated from the effects that a newer or less affluent person will suffer. Is it any surprise that fizzies and stuff are now being played with more - see site talk? It is people adjusting to the new values of things and attempting to enjoy themselves at a base level that will not stimulate a divorce.
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Depends who is selling, where they are selling and how they are selling. I am not convinced eBay is the place for highest prices but rather the opposite.
I'm not sure about "the opposite" but it is an accurate reflection of the "market". If you want to sell your item THIS WEEK, that is what people will pay for it.
The "market" includes both end users and dealers.
If you have any item that you want to sell in a short period of time you have the option of selling it privately and hopefully finding a buyer willing to pay "retail" value or you end up wholesaleing the item to a dealer.
If you want to sell it "sometime" over the next year, then you have different options of presenting it to another market.
If wealthy collectors are the top of the market how many of them have time or inclination to watch eBay auctions.
few. that is why they attend Live Auctions.
That is why Fine Art failed to sell on eBay when they first tried years ago. A Live Auction provides an environment that allows one to have more of a sensory experience when inspecting an item for potential purchase.
plus there is a social aspect to it that is lacking from buying via a computer screen.
My understanding is this car had a very substantial offer made for it which was turned down.
My understanding is that the SELLER made the car available privately at a substantial offer that was discounted from the "Reserve" and it was turned down.
Or at least not accepted.
Has the owner in fact overplayed his hand and devalued this car in proving that few are interested in it at top money?
I would say "yes" because so many people do not bother to notice that the Reserve has not been met.
There are still people that believe that "other" yellow Tg that has been on eBay.de a few times has actually "sold" for over 100,000 Euros despite not reaching Reserve and despite being listed a few times.
Those same people will look at this and think that either there is something "wrong" with this car or that the market value has plummeted.
I always tell people not to pay any attention to prices that do not meet Reserve, but few people pay attention. They just look at the numbers.
These are the same people that see a £2000 car for sale for £20,000 and say "Wow! Look at what they are going for these days!" Never mind that the car has not sold.
I do not doubt there are offers in place which are below that which the owner wishes to sell but above that which we, the impoverished enthusiasts, would be able to pay.
I agree and I know there are. There is "new blood" in the microcar collecting hobby and "new money" as well. However it is not just wealthy collectors. There are number of new enthusiasts out there that are car nuts that have discovered Microcars and are learning all they can about them and find them fascinating. These people will actually bring a car to a meet, talk with people, share information...just like regular folk. Because they are. But they just have a bit more money and different perception of what things are "worth". They are not "super rich". But they do recognize when they are looking at something that is rare, has a fascinating history and are willing to pay more money for it than some others, but not "stupid money".
I have had discussions with a few people at length about this car, serious buyers who were willing to pay just a bit less than what this went to this time. They were bidding on it. But they were not playing around like some other bidders who are bidding only to try and keep the perception of the market high.
I do not think that this car would bring big money if presented to a "super rich" collector or put into a high-end Live Auction.
It is not "original enough" and it is not completely restored and perfect. For all intents and purposes it is just "a Messerschmitt" to them. For an investor it is a risky buy as there are few established "values" for it. It has not been "blessed" by the marketplace enough to warrant the attention.
I don't feel TOO BAD for the seller though, he came in to the MOC forum looking for parts for his Tg, everyone was very excited about a new Tg owner and tried to be very helpful.
Once he got the parts he needed, he put the car up for sale. I think that more than a few people felt duped.
Of course the seller was led to believe the car was worth much more so he got "duped" as well.
Karma, it's a bitch.
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Depends who is selling, where they are selling and how they are selling. I am not convinced eBay is the place for highest prices but rather the opposite. If wealthy collectors are the top of the market how many of them have time or inclination to watch eBay auctions. These guys see something they want and buy it. They are not really into bidding over a week or so watching as they have bigger fish to fry. The market for top prices is therefore directed at what they do have time to look at, like Bruce's Museum clearouts or a top auction in the correct location. Their hobby is collecting/investment while living in a way we can only imagine. EBay itself has changed character and is much more populated by the traders than it used to be. The poor economic times have played into their hands.
My understanding is this car had a very substantial offer made for it which was turned down. It is therefore alledged to be known to be beyond what the collectors will pay and of no interest to them at that price. Putting it on eBay has only served to prove there is no other market for the car at top money other than the collectors. The rest of us who do watch auctions frustrated as stuff is out of our buying power can only talk about it and it is not worth anyone bidding on as we all know it is going to be too much money. Thus the car is not finding a market at the moment even if it is bid up in some naughty way. Has the owner in fact overplayed his hand and devalued this car in proving that few are interested in it at top money? I do not doubt there are offers in place which are below that which the owner wishes to sell but above that which we, the impoverished enthusiasts, would be able to pay. This is because our hobby is framed at lower prices and with an element of hands on work and usage.
It is frustrating but I believe that is the reality. We are looking at two differing hobbies with one demanding the rare and perfect cars the other less well off hobby value too but for slightly differing reasons. I have accepted that I have to alter my expectations of cars I can afford and in time I either have to accept my little collection gets to be a to large a proportion of my value in cash on the planet or adjust, releasing some cars, so I can justify the collection value in proportion to my income. This means looking at vehicles I had previously dismissed or changing to another area of interest altogether if I wish to continue to find new projects. Fortunately like many Microcar owner I actually have more work in hand than I can really cope with if I am honest so I am slightly insulated from the effects that a newer or less affluent person will suffer. Is it any surprise that fizzies and stuff are now being played with more - see site talk? It is people adjusting to the new values of things and attempting to enjoy themselves at a base level that will not stimulate a divorce.
Or (and sit down everyone as the world's set to spin off its axis) a TG in that nick's simply worth £44k
Not that hard to stomach.
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No one said it wasn't worth 44K Perry. Some very interesting observations from both sides of the Atlantic, I think we on the forum are in a privileged position now as we have the benefit of Jims ear to the ground stateside and the experienced perspective of Threadbear, the man who doesn't like forums! ;) I have to differ on one point though, not all super rich have no time for ferreting out a buy at the correct price, I have come across quite a few big name celebs who collect antiques and are tight as a ducks proverbial! With some that's how they got to be mega rich in the first place. Granted most in this income bracket do have bigger fish to fry. I also agree with Mr Bears point about how us mere mortals have to adjust our hobby in relation to what we can afford, hence my recent moped buying flurry!
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Or is it simply the case that with some very tactical bidding someone has managed to bring down the values of Tg500s around the world :o. Jim has correctly pointed out that prices of Peels have been artificially raised through E-Bay so perhaps this is the opposite end of the spectrum. A jolly good idea if you are in the market to buy a a Tg but not so good if your a paid up member of the Tiger mafia ;D
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please explain how "tactical bidding" could result in a lower price for something.
::)
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It could be very tatical indeed if the tatical bidder decided not to tactically bid..... ;) (Think about it)
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Ah, it looks like you tumbled to the little amusing subterfuge Bob. Not that I was going out of the way to be secretive. I am happy if things remain factual and friendly with some humour chucked in. Besides I have been ill and the PC and this forum has entertained me since Chrimbo.
I have a passing interest in the alledged value of Tigers as I have one to recreate. I have no idea why I am doing this as I never had a huge desire to own one but I fell into it. I am not valuing what I produce at anything like some of the values being banded about but it would be nice to know the effort of doing the car has some pay back as it will take a lot of time. I was looking at about £30k-£35k if I can get it the way I want. It has its chassis plate and original engine so it is not a fake but neither is it original. Still that is for the future and what goes up can come down. I derive more pleasure from the fact I bought it by accident which really annoys a lot of people.
I would agree with most of the observations made. I am sure the market is slightly different in the States and of course we are all generalising. However it is interesting to compare notes, not that I claim to be right. I remain open to alternate views. Despite the poor economic times it seems to be a sellers market and not much is coming up that has to be sold. So much is put into a long sale cycle unless there is a ready buyer waiting. There are a fair few folks clearing the decks happy to gain a windfall on an old purchase they got for next to nothing and good luck to them. I still have several cars I was given to take away or were £100. Those were the days
Tactical bidding - fav is to bid into the reserve and then withdraw the bid. Not unknown.
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please explain how "tactical bidding" could result in a lower price for something.
::)
Observe the bidding pattern which suggests the highest bidder was 'serious' and was bidding to win. Other interested parties observe the multiple bids (along with being the highest bidder from nearly the start) and conclude that they have little or no chance of completing so don't bid. Do this once on US E-Bay and repeat on UK E-Bay but reduce your top bid. No ones wins the auction but the closing price is much lower than the expected sale price. Tg500 prices fall world wide. Just the opposite of what has to be done to increase the value of Peels.
Think I must sell one of my Peels privately and buy 2 Tg500s ;D
Attending E-Bay academy is money well spent
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Hi scootacar, do you reckon the TG mafia has also something to do with the Peel mafia? Same members maybe? ;-)
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In the 1970's and early 80's , the boon years for the antiques trade I used to buy at Bonhams, Sotheby's, Christies and the provincial sales rooms too. In my specialist field there was, and I emphasise WAS a ring in operation, the purpose being to try and keep priced down. The way it "works" is that one person bids for the ring so they dont all bid against each other. After the sale in some pub or back room is the "knockout". The lots are in effect re auctioned among the ring members. The difference between the price paid at the real sale and the price bid by the winning ring member at the knock out is then divided amongst the remaining ring members. In effect members can walk away with cash in there pockets without having any intention of buying a single lot and this is one of the systems downfalls. The other downfall is that it seldom work effectively. An overseas buyer would generally appear during the sale and take the price up to the items value anyway which is why I dont buy into Scootacars theory. The third downfall is that it is fraudulent and highly illegal! Dealers actually went to prison for it! I would never join the ring despite being threatened on more than one occasion. Today's society is just as corrupt if not more so and what amazes me about ebay is that they seem to get away with things that the real sale rooms got prosecuted for. Fakes are sold on a daily basis with no of little come back on ebay, they claims that as agents its the sellers responsibility and not theirs, this is not so legally. On the "shimmy" bidding side of things, they give it a nice friendly name much like car thieves being called "joy riders", they may ban shimmy bidders but really this action is fraud! I would like to know if any guilty ebayers have actually been prosecuted for it. And another thing whilst I'm having a rant, at a real auction you cant just withdraw your bid willy nilly!!
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Ebay has been slowly moving away from being a real auction site. It has the benefit of any multi-national company of being half in and half out of the domestic market here. Since the management changed, did they overpay on borrowed money?, the drive has been to increase the take by increasing the number of deals and the % of each trade. I do not think eBay gives a flying fig about its old core client base and it has become a rather unpleasant place to do business. Ebay was not a genuine auction site when it started and I am not sure what title covers its current incarnation but it sounds more like your meeting in the pub after the ring has obtained the item than the original auction we hoped to attend.
I have never been very keen on auctions as they contain quite a few dodgy practices. The best bidder at most auctions I have been to is Mr Wall, though he has become more sophisticated as sometimes he is not at the auction but somewhere else on the other end of a 'phone. The advantage of a real auction is that you can see most of the opposition which often gives you clues if you are going to be a buyer. Yes the ring can be present but as you say this is policed. However there is still the auctioneer's mates and the missed bid. Worst case Bonham's, I think, at Beaulieu. I think I could have let a bomb off and not got my bid in on one lot. Even a small informal auction can cause grief, MOC last year with Jon Hunts bid nearly dishonoured by all accounts. No auctions are dodgy and eBay's especially so. I have virtually stopped using it, a bummer as I have stuff to clear but it is more effective use of time to bin the cheap stuff now. Did you notice Autojumble is coming back, only one reason.
What do the Peel Mafia/Tiger Mafia threaten to do. Leave an Isetta head on your pillow? Attack you and burst a few blackheads? Do they keep waterpistols in a glasses case? Do they threaten to hubcap you? Are there rumours of them extracting two stroke in a protection racket? I always wondered what was under that lid in the boot of a Tiger. It is a small roulette wheel. The moncoque is great for craps. No wonder the crowds gather round them when they turn up at an event. Three Peels in a row, which is the dollar under? Sorry wrong car, sir, it was fake one this time. Is it more threatening than the Modified Berkeley MFI!
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Ah, I remember Mr Wall so well! However it was the chandelier in the London room! As you say, now there are telephones manned by members of staff Messrs Wall and Chandelier are redundant.
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I guess I can answer my own question as there is a way to "tactically" bid to lower the price of something but there must not be a Reserve on it to begin with.
You need three people (or three accounts).
Say an item is £10 and it could go for £2000
You want to obtain it for £20
You get the three bidders in there and both place bids of £20, £2000 and £2500 respectively or even higher.
Anyone else looking at the listing sees the price as being over £2000 and says "too rich for my blood"
A few moments before the end of the listing, the top TWO bidders retract their bids.
Now the highest bid is £20 and hopefully it stays that way without anyone noticing and it "sells" for £20
This used to be prevalent on eBay in the past but they have changed their rules and you cannot yank your bid at the last moment.
Also- quite a few people use automatic Sniping services so their bids are not placed until the last 6 seconds of the listings, this will end up defeating the above technique.
It also tends to throw a wrench into anyone's "plans" to obtain an item cheaper somehow as you really cannot predict who else is going to come in at the last moment.
Case-in-point: There was a scooter instruction manual I wanted. I did not think anyone would be willing to pay more than $25 for it, so I put in a bid of $125 just to "be sure"
Also- I was being cocky and liked entering a high number.
The auction ended with the price at $122.50!
Turns out the second highest bidder was a friend of mine in Canada with the exact same plan, except he only bid up to $120.
No one else was willing to bid over $25 though.
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If you take the time to look at the completed listing on E-Bay, 260552363903, you will find that it has sold for £44600. Looks like 'tactical' bidding has 'paid off' for some lucky person. All most as good as winning 56 milion on the lottery ;D
Expect to see this fine vehicle at this years MOC rally in July
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I just looked at it on completed listings and it says reserve not met with red numbers as opposed to green numbers [green indicating sold red indicating unsold] Are you telling us a deal was done after the auction finished?
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260552363903
ended Feb 14
you must be looking at the one that ended Feb 08 with 20 bids and Reserve Not Met
this one does not show up in "completed listings" for the seller.
so this was the third time it was listed, perhaps the Seller struck a deal with the Buyer to sell at that price but only through eBay?
That happens on occasion. What is odd (for me) is that there is no bid history, it just says "Sold for £44,600"
normally under the date the listing ended is "BIDS". There is nothing there. New "feature" from eBay? I don't know.
maybe he listed it as a "Classified Ad" instead this time and that is what it looks like when someone agrees to buy it (technically no bidders).
update: I just checked several completed listings I was watching that were either Classified Ads or "Buy It Now" and the ones that sold also do not show any record of a Bidder so that is what the completed listing looks like after someone agreed to buy at a fixed price.
I also don't see how one can tell if the bidder for this was from the UK. Just because it was listed on UK eBay does not restrict it to UK buyers.
anyways, looks like it has actually sold though. Congratulations to the new owner.
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I also don't see how one can tell if the bidder for this was from the UK. Just because it was listed on UK eBay does not restrict it to UK buyers.
anyways, looks like it has actually sold though. Congratulations to the new owner.
One can tell by observing the bid history of a certain well known character who goes by the name 'Peelnut'. You will see that he won the auction. So Ferdi you were correct, the Peel Mafia were involved all along ;D
One now wonders if 'Peelnut' will attend Ken Wager's small gathering with the Tg before shipping it home or get it back to the UK in time for the MOC rally and cause further financial heart ache for the Tiger mafia ???
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ah very good, thank you:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=peelnut&completed=1&all=1&rows=50&sort=12&_rdc=1
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Well done Andy! There must be good money in fiberglass molding!
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Hmmm, reserve prize not met?
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Isn't it amazing that this seller would suddenly choose to list the car at a fixed price when the bidding had been so hot on the previous "auctions".
Of course it could be that someone thought that shill bidding was being indulged in with this car, and the only way that both parties involved (seller & top bidder) could get out of that particular accusation with ebay was for the car to be "sold" through a fixed price listing at the final bid reached in the previous "auction".
Nah I'm just a pessimist, if you're paying that much for a sports car, most people (on this board at least!) would choose the TG500 over an Aston Martin Vantage.
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Seller obviously couldn't get more than 44 sterling on a global market.
Not quite the 80+ banded about.
Least we know where we all are. Tiger mafia must be weeping!!!
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Where do I pick up my Aston Martin Vantage from? No contest in my book. However I will settle for a race tuned AC Type 70 as it will be more fun than either for about thrupence ha'penny as I cannot afford either of the others at the sale price.
Since this is the Chinese year of the Tiger should we not refer to the Peel Mafia and Tiger Tong? Ying tong iddle I poh!
Stuff is only worth what someone wants to pay for it. Today £44k, tomorrow £30k, next week £80k - if I had the car i would waiting for next week unless I wanted the money for something as it is a sellers market. Likewise if you need the money never turn down a good price as it might be unrepeatable. At sometime we will reach the tipping point on values. Not sure we are there but of course I refer back to the marketing comment and undermining the possible value of a car by a poor advertising stratagy. So I would not write in to much to this alledged deal underwriting the market for Tigers. Makes for good idle banter, the Eastenders of bubblecar topics.
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Seller obviously couldn't get more than 44 sterling on a global market.
Yeah but if only he'd been prepared to let it go the month before, he'd have got $20,000 more. how tragic is that :'(
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961-Messerschmitt-FMR-TG500-Tiger-Classic-Car-Original_W0QQitemZ260532201845QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ca8ede975#v4-36 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961-Messerschmitt-FMR-TG500-Tiger-Classic-Car-Original_W0QQitemZ260532201845QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ca8ede975#v4-36)
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Yeah but if only he'd been prepared to let it go the month before, he'd have got $20,000 more. how tragic is that :'(
??? No he would not have.
The reserve was not met and he was offering it privately for that amount after that listing ended. No takers.
That means that the people bidding it up were not really interested in taking delivery of the car. (at least at that price)
Take from that what you will.
Do NOT pay attention to bid prices where the Reserve Is Not Met! They mean nothing.
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That means that the people bidding it up were not really interested in taking delivery of the car.
[/quote]
Whereas this time we are expected to believe that they were! ::)
Sorry Jim, but I don't think that the car sold this time for £44,000 any more than it was really bidded up to $90,000 by "serious" buyers. I think the only people who've gained money on this deal were Ebay who obviously smelled a rat. Hence the magic fixed price auction. Cheapest/fastest way to get out of jail without loosing too much face but pretty stupid if there really were two people interested in paying anywhere near that price for the car on the open market.
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Expect to see this fine vehicle at this years MOC rally in July
I expect not.
The car is still for sale as of today. The seller is still shopping it around for $91,000 USD.
He says the "British Buyer" backed out.
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The plot thickens....
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I really do not understand all this talk of mafia, tactical bidding and all the rest of it. I just know that a decent lottery win or selling quite a few HUNDRED of my drum kits, (thank you Bob!) would have me looking for a TG.
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The plot thickens....
Use Busto gravy train granules - also available on selected eBay auctions with a second bidder offer.