RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: bruetsch-freak on July 16, 2010, 09:38:56 pm
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There is a very nice restored Peel P50 on ebay. The car looks better then the one which was offered earlier this month. (see the second link below)
Let´s have a look if the reserve price will be reached this time. ;)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peel-P50-car-sale-1964-very-rare-not-trident-Lovely-/180534117087?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2a08ac02df
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110550684356&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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The car which was offered earlier this month is well known to me. Unfortunately this up to date P50 with its number D507 is totally unknown to me, and doesn't turn up at my register,which i still keep up to date. That means, this one did never turn up in my investigations or register. Sounds suspicious to me indeed. First registration july 2010???
Any clue ?
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It could be one made by the BBC props department after putting Andy's car through the photocopier when he was not looking. It is not the one I thought I was after anyway. There seems to be a sudden upturn in Peels again. I know several folk who seem to be on a sniff be it real or replica. Money becoming tight and prices bouyant?
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LVG 396B is an age-related number, issued July 2010, meaning it isnt this car's orginal 1964 registration number anyway. VG is Norwich area of Norfolk, & "proper" LVG wasn't issued until LVG-G of July 1969. In fact, if you look though the seller's completed listings, you can see the listing for when he bought the number plates a few weeks back.... ;D
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Hi Stuart, you are a real shrewd bloke watching the ebay listings and feedbacks. Seems the vendor is caught! :o
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And so the burning question remains: Is it or isn't it?...... ???
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To answer your burning question. I dont think it is, because as i mentioned before it never turned up on my register of Peels !
Hows your project going on Stuart?
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Perhaps Andy Carter will confirm or deny if it is in fact a 1960's Peel or a replicar. Jean
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fascinating stuff - ebay records . well done for starting that one up stewart. still waiting for photos of the trident that no one has commented on yet on the forum. now that does sound interesting ;)
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The eBay car is indeed another replica, confrimed today by the ICR spy network. ;D No problem with that, but a little cheeky of the seller to say its genunie 1964 when its actully genuine 2010 ! I mean, is not a thoretical 14-grand obtainable price for a declared replica still not good enough for some that they have to drag the genuine ones into it?
Oh, & Ferdi, my little GENUINE Manx (oops, did I just say that out louad?) is going well. I've just given that little white bit of it another clean down, whilst the main blue is good enough as is. :) Just waiting for clearance on the exact wording of its history bourd & it'll be unveiled at School House Farm in a few days time..... (The Peel Mafia knows what I mean. ;))
And to our Dickie, :) Which Trident might that be? ;) This one.....
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/DSC0063444.jpg)
...or this one? 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_99JkN9cxx8&feature=related
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hi stuart are we all seing the same rumcars.org because goggo has just asked me the same question ! surely the posting of two days ago or so titled lost trident now found - or similar
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For sure Stuart the P..L Mafia knows what ya mean mate ;) ;) ;)
Ups, not to forget to mention! I did ride my P50 this afternoon, but to hot sun to drive. >:( >:(
Ferdi
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It was first registered on 1st July 2010.
The chassis number D507 is not listed on the Peel Register.
The seller says he has spent years restoring it but has no pictures of it prior to, or during its restoration.
His recent Ebay purchases include number plates, a 49cc DKW engine, carb etc.
Last but not least - seller was recently seen driving from Nottinghamshire with a new p50 bodyshell on his roofrack.
Best draw your own conclusions.
Hmm? Taking the above into account (I have no reason to doubt it) then the seller is surely playing with fire? All this "restoration" flannel.. Mind you it does have Avons so he's made the effort.
Does anyone know who gave it the nod ID wise? i.e. Jean confirmed JMG was the real deal a few years ago. So who's signed off this one so it could be reg'd at the DVLA as a '64? What's this D507 is the 7th car made?
Peels are shrouded in skulduggery and espianage.
Oh and yes my Trident is finished as youtube illustrates. Driving it up my high street turned a few heads...
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Glad to hear your Trident is almost finished. Yep great video on youtube mate. All the worries about the P50 ! Gettiin' a set of Avon tyres is not the fact making it genuine though
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The eBay car is indeed another replica, confrimed today by the ICR spy network. ;D No problem with that, but a little cheeky of the seller to say its genunie 1964 when its actully genuine 2010 ! I mean, is not a thoretical 14-grand obtainable price for a declared replica still not good enough for some that they have to drag the genuine ones into it?
Oh, & Ferdi, my little GENUINE Manx (oops, did I just say that out louad?) is going well. I've just given that little white bit of it another clean down, whilst the main blue is good enough as is. :) Just waiting for clearance on the exact wording of its history bourd & it'll be unveiled at School House Farm in a few days time..... (The Peel Mafia knows what I mean. ;))
And to our Dickie, :) Which Trident might that be? ;) This one.....
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/DSC0063444.jpg)
...or this one? 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_99JkN9cxx8&feature=related
Blinkin hell, it must be true about the peel mafia, the picture above is in fact mine, see post of New Peel Trident owner / Lost & Found old Trident the other day. The pic was taken by Andy from Modern Microcars who popped round
P.S. Hi , im Dom by the way
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Bidding on the P50 has ended early this afternoon at 16-grand. Will it be back, or has it gone we wonder...... :-X
Hello Dom, trust you didn't mind too much your pic going up, looks a very nice find from here. Well done for turning up a GENUINE one! :-*
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Hmm? a Peel never makes full term on evilbay.
Where has it gone? Pulled by seller as a cheeky listing that cliuld have got messy or simply sold for big bucks outside of the auction?
I'm sure you'll find out soon enough captain cyphus.
Oh and Dom that was some find. I know plenty of people who's dream it is to find a long lost Peel....
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Relisted, new description, new price. £25,000 buy-it-now. Is that a side swipe at me in the last line I wonder.... :)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180535423080
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Relisted, new description, new price. £25,000 buy-it-now. Is that a side swipe at me in the last line I wonder.... :)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180535423080
so what is it? a reshell. on a real peel? where's the old "wrecked" body? does it have an OG chassis plate? either way whole car is a snide.
lost its orig body, orig engine and orig reg. chances of the chassis plate being the orig peel one? even if it is so what? it just has the i.d. of that original car. Why not be straight up and honest?
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I can't decide who should have the car, so to be fair to everyone, I have removed the auction and replaced it with a buy it now price only, then the first person to see the advert and buy it wins err surely the standard auction listing dictates who would have got the thing?
i know, i have an original chassis plate off a type 35 Bugatti in my desk draw. i'll build an entire car up from it... brooms, handles and heads.
He quotes, "If you are a car bore?!" reams of receipts. What's wrong in getting what you pay for and asking basically if it's the real mccoy? what he's selling is a very good rep. and it's pitched about 2 times it's value. VOSA would have a field day if they got stuck into it! Q reg anyone?!
So Lord Cyphus it seems to be angled at you. See you Sunday..
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Only another opaque eBay sale. This guy sold a Schmitt a year or two back after pestering folks for best bits. He is clearly only interested in money and will do or say anything that achieves his purpose. Just another new Microcar owner in fact. Clealy wanting history and paperwork is for us boring types who do not want to be ripped off not those who see a comodity to trade in. Wonder when VOSA will look at Peel registrations as eventually someone is going to complain officially in some way after finding they have a cloned car.
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Only another opaque eBay sale. This guy sold a Schmitt a year or two back after pestering folks for best bits. He is clearly only interested in money and will do or say anything that achieves his purpose. Just another new Microcar owner in fact. Clealy wanting history and paperwork is for us boring types who do not want to be ripped off not those who see a comodity to trade in. Wonder when VOSA will look at Peel registrations as eventually someone is going to complain officially in some way after finding they have a cloned car.
Where there's money there's corruption and skulduggery. Peels are easy to rep.
Not a problem owing a fake. As long as you're aware you're paying for one. Paperwork is nice but simple provenance suffices. Simple as that. That aside it's a very very nice car with all the correct bits.
Mind you, caveat emptor in all areas at all times. Do your research et al... However Mr Hewett would do well to be aware of caveat actor.... as I'm sure he'll be reading our discussion avidly... these things usually end in tears.
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When asked what parts of the car are original he said:
"Hello, I can't say in writing which parts are original but I am willing to chat on the telephone. It is 100% correct in the detail and I should think it is easily the best one in the world."
Why does he want to chat on the telephone? I thought he did not like "car bores"?
::)
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Anything written can easily be used as evidence!
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Just to let you know. If you lock at the vendors listings on ebay, he bought a to small carb. Also the engine. Its not driveable in a Peel. In fact it is a small moped engine, and it is air coolled not fan cooled. Fit it in a Peel, barrel and piston will seize after a few miles.
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In one pic of the seat I'm sure I can see a bit of the starting handle?
Wonder what the engine number is? 80416004***? that would prove it at least has an OG 4.2 motor..
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where is the chassis number on a real P50?
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where is the chassis number on a real P50?
Not sure to describe it right in english mates. Chassis number is always on the " dashboard" Close to the steering
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Sounds like Peels may be just like many earlier "open" invalid carriages: if they have a chassis number at all (& several older types don't!) it was only ever on a seperate rivited plate which tended to fall off, rather than ever actully being stamped on any physical part of the frame/chassis.
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Not sure to describe it right in english mates. Chassis number is always on the " dashboard" Close to the steering
You could not have described it better!
I ask because the seller claims the car was a wreck with the chassis number barely visible. For most people they would assume the chassis number was stamped into a frame piece on the ...."chassis" someplace.
A vehicle ID plate is easily fabricated or reproduced.
I am sure that Bob Purton could tell many stories about faked antiquities (not by his hand of course...) he has encountered that exist simply because there is a market for these things for the uninformed buyer.
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Of course, there are fakes everywhere. The worrying thing is that the legal system doesn't seem to care, those responsible only ever get prosecuted if the buyer takes them to court. It wasn't allways like this, when I started out in the 1970's there was a guy doing porridge for making fake equinoctial dials, ring dials, butterfields, etc, the guy was a great artisan and was only caught out because he got too greedy and the dials were turning up at Sotherbys and Christies too frequently. Suspicion was aroused and tests were done on the brass revealing it to be a modern alloy rolled brass and not eighteenth century founded brass. He only ended up in clink because he had to be made an example of for showing the big auction rooms up for what they are, lacking in expertees and greedier than he was! The annoying thing about ebay is that fakes are sold through it by the thousands on a weekly basis and very little is done about it. Fake peels are just the tip of the iceburg! Auctions disclaim responsibility and say we are only agents for the vendors but I think that if the law is followed to the letter they also have a responsibility and cases in the past have proved this to be the case. Still as someone else suggested, maybe one day the DVLA will go through the Peel register and there could be a few more folk sewing mail bags.
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I ask because the seller claims the car was a wreck with the chassis number barely visible.
The above simply doesn't add up. If the P50 was a wreck then the chassis plate sitting on the steering bracket would have been sound. (unless all he recovered was a bit of a bracket and a chassis tag?)
Dom's Trident bottom half was sitting for approx 3 decades with the chassis plate exposed to the elements. Perfectly readable and reusable.
Good luck to whoever gets it.....
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Not a problem owing a fake. As long as you're aware you're paying for one. Paperwork is nice but simple provenance suffices. Simple as that. That aside it's a very very nice car with all the correct bits.
Mind you, caveat emptor in all areas at all times. Do your research et al... However Mr Hewett would do well to be aware of caveat actor.... as I'm sure he'll be reading our discussion avidly... these things usually end in tears.
There is a problem owning a fake. It relates to how it was made. Chum has looked at Chevrons. A firm has been making replica Chevrons for sometime. Another company has ownership of the world manufacturing rights to Chevron. It is in court now I believe as clearly one lot has infringe the rights of the other. Damages will be in order. What is the status of the fake Chevrons after this? Certainly they will probably be registered incorrectly, are not historic etc etc. Since the original records were not utilised to martial what went on the legal systems will step in to correct it. Surely this has to effect the value of the genuine fakes now marked as such as it will increase the value of the real cars. Knock on insurance problems etc etc.
Secondly the market might absorb 100 fakes now. What if interest wains. If you own a fake which you have lavished money on unfortunately your car will suffer a larger drop in price than a real car. Market forces are savage in such situations. Add to this the odd millionaire buying into Peels you have someone who can afford to be a bastard and expend more money than it is worth to get someone he thinks stitched him up. Simple for them as they can make the court action so big you cannot afford to defend youself. Justice is a lot more like poker than about being fair.
Buyerr beware, yes indeed. But if the seller lies or attempts to obscure the facts of the deal he can be taken to court. It is simply, illegal. This does not matter if you know the facts or not. So if you sell a fake be aware that a claim can pass back down the chain of owners. It is analogous to selling a stolen car. You handled dodgy goods. The only reason this does not happen often is that it costs money to do. However never bank on the legal system not reacting. Also since this car is mainly made of new parts it may attract the interest of trading standards. The whole area of selling iffy motors is a minfield and it really is not worth getting involved with it as even if the legal system does not react the uncivilised system has been known too and is a lot cheaper as well as hurting more! I am lucky as when trading I never knowingly had a stolen car. I was always open about what was for sale. Result no cases. That is not to say that all buyers will say so as people do not listen or are greedy assuming they are smarter then everyone else. Those sort would automatically blame someone else anyway. It is one of these types that will probably buy Mr Hewett's Peel and if so jolly good show to both of them and Mr Hewett can pocket his profit, a job well done. If that is unfair it is also life. Off course the data is there to combat part of his sale stance ALLEDGEDLY but who is going to mount the challenge. It should be the Peel owners protecting their marque from fakes. No good moaning after the event.
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How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?
I don't care how many reps there are. Nothing to do directly with me. I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what... I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.
I think you're right about miilionaires though being the punters of the future. I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.
Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done". In my books that makes him a shyster.
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There is currently Peel P50 for sale on Ebay Item no. 180535423080 which the seller, a Mr J Hewett from Norfolk claims to have been restored from an original wreck.
Having taken advice from several long standing microcar enthusiasts who know far more about the subject of the originality of Peels than I. it has been decided that the following statement should be made:
The Register of Unusual Microcars wish to warn any prospective purchaser that the car, chassis number D507, registration no. LVG396B is not on the Peel Section of the Register.
The known facts suggest it is a new replica.
It was first registered on 1st July 2010 in Norfolk.
The seller has been unable to supply any documentary evidence to prove that it is an original car, (paperwork or pre-restoration photographs etc). therefore we urge all interested buyers to proceed with caution.
This car appears to be a high quality replica, very close to the original in most respects, however it would be unfair if someone were to buy the car for a large sum of money thinking it was built in Peel, IOM in the1960s.
Jean
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How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?
I don't care how many reps there are. Nothing to do directly with me. I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what... I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.
I think you're right about millionaires though being the punters of the future. I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.
Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done". In my books that makes him a shyster.
In one message you say its none of your business and you do not care about it and yet the guy is a shyster so you must care. Sounds like you want it both ways without the effort of responsibility. Very British and a reason we are in our financial mess and rather Spot Botish. I can think of plenty of things I could do about it but I have no motivation as I do not own a Peel nor do I desire to particularly without effort. I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen.
The clear question is who owns the construction rights? Then we have factory records. Both form a basis of exposing fakes. When looking for my nicked Messerschmitt several arrests resulted from my watching Messerschmitt adverts on eBay for a few months and reporting clearly devious adverts to the police who reacted. Not sure if that is counted as difficult but even if so it demonstraits apathy from Peel owners rewarded by lots of fakes that have to effect the value of the mass of Peels for good or ill. However lets be clear that there a fakes and fakes. An accurate fake can be passed off but a new body underpinned by differing machanicals is only going to fool a twit. There is no challenge to getting money out of twits but to gain a deal from a 'expert/collector shows skill. Bon chance Mr Hewett, looks like you free and clear.
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So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?
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How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?
I don't care how many reps there are. Nothing to do directly with me. I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what... I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.
I think you're right about millionaires though being the punters of the future. I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.
Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done". In my books that makes him a shyster.
In one message you say its none of your business and you do not care about it and yet the guy is a shyster so you must care. Sounds like you want it both ways without the effort of responsibility. Very British and a reason we are in our financial mess and rather Spot Botish. I can think of plenty of things I could do about it but I have no motivation as I do not own a Peel nor do I desire to particularly without effort. I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen.
The clear question is who owns the construction rights? Then we have factory records. Both form a basis of exposing fakes. When looking for my nicked Messerschmitt several arrests resulted from my watching Messerschmitt adverts on eBay for a few months and reporting clearly devious adverts to the police who reacted. Not sure if that is counted as difficult but even if so it demonstraits apathy from Peel owners rewarded by lots of fakes that have to effect the value of the mass of Peels for good or ill. However lets be clear that there a fakes and fakes. An accurate fake can be passed off but a new body underpinned by differing machanicals is only going to fool a twit. There is no challenge to getting money out of twits but to gain a deal from a 'expert/collector shows skill. Bon chance Mr Hewett, looks like you free and clear.
What utter drivel. The facts are thus.
What is the crime in contructing a replica? of anything? C type, D type or whatever? if you cannot afford the real thing then a facsimile is utterly fine. Closer to original to the better.
HOWEVER WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO PASS OFF YOUR GOODS AS BONE FIDE FOR DECEIPTFULL REWARD THEN YOU ARE A THEIF,FRAUDSTER AND SHYSTER.
What are we to do AL? ban replicas? What imbecile would buy an AC Cobra made of plastic with Cortina running gear thinking it was a Shelby '65?.
"I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen."
I suppose there is something to be said for a man who engineers his scam so well. You can be good at what you do. It's not laudable if it involves blatant deception. Do you admire a highly profitable benefit scam ring? Keep paying those taxes old boy.
If's one's intelligent then it's not hard to hoodwink mere mortals. Getting ripped off's a fact of life for some but I subscribe to karma. Darius Guppy got tumbled. Lord Brocket too.
Fools whilst being fools do not automatically deserve to be ripped off. With the likes of you thus after deriving pleasure from their misery. No true clued up expert/collector would buy this Peel. Only a novice..
Perhaps the UK's in this "financial mess" due to your angle rather than mine. Screw 'em over. If you get away with it, job's a good'n.
Nice.
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Hello?? Lord Lucan's turned up!!!
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So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?
No. However a good scam is clever in the same way as inventing a left hand bivalve whump is. One can celebrate the cleverness without applauding the outcome. It is unfortunate that many people choose to use their cleverness to obtain money off other people by trickery than actually produce a product of worth and sell it. The Peel fits somewhere in between here as it is a product but it is not as real as would be suggested. The clever bit is it has apparently gained a registration. I can understand most of this save the last bit as that is the bit that 'legitimises' the car. The RUMcar statement goes someway to combating that but the question remains how was this achieved. If I were an owner of a Peel of any type this is the key question to be answered and I cannot see how owners can ignore it and say it does not effect them. Clearly it does.
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Quote ..... "It is one of these types that will probably buy Mr Hewett's Peel and if so jolly good show to both of them and Mr Hewett can pocket his profit, a job well done. "
Still sounds like you condone the crime if you think the buyer is an idiot.
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So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?
No. However a good scam is clever in the same way as inventing a left hand bivalve whump is. One can celebrate the cleverness without applauding the outcome. It is unfortunate that many people choose to use their cleverness to obtain money off other people by trickery than actually produce a product of worth and sell it. The Peel fits somewhere in between here as it is a product but it is not as real as would be suggested. The clever bit is it has apparently gained a registration. I can understand most of this save the last bit as that is the bit that 'legitimises' the car. The RUMcar statement goes someway to combating that but the question remains how was this achieved. If I were an owner of a Peel of any type this is the key question to be answered and I cannot see how owners can ignore it and say it does not effect them. Clearly it does.
I agree an elaborate scam is interesting and scams are as old as time itself.
A fake car does not affect me. If anything it will push prices through the roof on an og IOM car. It's pretty easy to see what Peels are missing on the register. Then go "ill have D107" please. But who's inspected it as an approved member of a club thus approved by the DVLA? what happens if D107 turns up like Doms E149?
About 4 years ago a Trident came up on Ebay that had lost its chassis plate and all paperwork. Neville's car. But it's a proper two strokes car. It's prob E128 or 129. But you cant go dishing out speculative number even on a real Peel. In case the other one turns up.
D107 is a fake. If he told the truth and stated it is as near to an IOM Peel you can get then no real problem. But he's lying. Then spewing arrogant crap about if you're a bore or want original air in the tyres. Then to be all passe' about a couple minor issues like it's a total snide!
But if he did have a buff log book and og chassis plate then what then?!
Oh yeah and I think I saw lord Lucan in a P50 going up the kings road!
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P50 has it in the last posting. I could not possibly have made such comments as a none Peel person even if I thought them (after House of Cards). Opinion on affect is something one can differ on but the facts do not alter.
Bob, if he is an idiot then he deserves what he looses whether I condon it or not. Much of our economy is based on idiots buying things they should not. Even I have been an idiot on occasions, which I do not condon! From Hewett's point of view the bigger and wealthier the idiot the better for him, simples, eeck!
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Ups, the P50 was takeing off ebay. What happens ! ??? ???
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Below is debate not argueing before you wade into it, or not, thinking it an answer to P50 position on the original subject. Basically matter arising.
Going back to the topic of creating a fake/replica. It is an interesting situation. If you were to attempt to replicate a design protected by law you will run the risk of getting sued. As in the Chevron case even though the original company had long gone the world construction rights remained live and we have a court case. I am not sure what the case was with the AC Cobra but AC still exist so presumably they chose not to persue those who first made replica Cobras. There are many differing versions now and several are reasonably accurate while others are actually better than the real thing having incorporated modern technology into the resulting cars on the road. It would appear the situation with Peels is analogous to the second case. However what would happen if an heir of Cyril Cannel turned up with a right to produce the Peel cars and a budget to go to law? We revert to the first position I guess. I think one person might have a substantial defence case that he had been in the possession of the technology to build cars long enough to have gained production by right but I really do not know if this works on rights, it does not with books for instance.
I therefore maintain that to make a replica is a calculated risk in investment terms. However to muddy the waters if you have the identity of a car destroyed physically it is possible to rebuild that car back to a functioning machine. This is not illegal though there have been disagreements over registration once finished on occasions and the original number has been denied to the car while the chassis number has been accepted. There have been cases of cars being rebuilt only to find that there are two of them.... off to court we go. But the key element would seem to be that you need to hold the chassis number and preferably proving paperwork. You could argue that a rebuilt car and a replica can be identical save for the attachment of an original chassis plate but one is a 'real' car the other not.
As we rightly define the real illegality proceedable by anyone is to make false statements about a car to sell it. Effectively passing the fake off as a genuine car etc. However every good replica made can at some point result in this occurring even if the originator was clear he was creating a fake for his own satisfaction. That is the real danger of these cars as they pass through several owners each changing the history a little enhancing the credentials and thus hopefully the value. A favoured route is an auction as many a tale is told on auction notes. If done well they cannot be bounced and the auction legitimises the history. I have seen this done in the trade and had close shaves with several wrong 'uns created out of the dust into very convincing machines which upon investigation are nigh on worthless. I will always take the view the fakes effect prices. This might be to increase them but equally it can depress them, not least if it becomes impossible to tell real from false. An investor either needs an expert to advise him or he cannot buy with confidence. There are easier investments around. So just because Peels are hot now does not mean they will go up for ever. There could be payback.
None of this effects the guy who just wants a Peel with a Vespa engine in it and the wrong size wheels. His only worry is how to get a registration. He is not fooling anyone and is not trying to. However the system of registration actually encourage him to look to try and gain one of the original IDs as it is a simpler way to gain a registration avoiding tests, paperwork and Spot Bots. So the system in a way conspires to encourage folk to gain original registrations for fakes which is counter to what it should be doing, unless we accept Big Brother says you cannot have a weird car if you want one. Thus we have the value of keeping accurate registers of rare and easy to replicate cars in the public domain as the room for the faker is cut to a minimium if there is clear information available. Sadly this does not happen for various reasons, not least legal, so the buyer is placed in a rather weak position and a clever faker in a pretty strong one if he is devious enough to access the restricted record database.
Be interested in debate as I am in no way saying the above is correct as I do not know for sure.
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I would like to know what the procedure is in the UK for getting a vehicle like this registered as a 1964 vehicle given that it has no paperwork to support it.
Is a fake ID plate all that is necessary or does there need to be some other sort of affidavit from some organization that gives their "stamp of approval" to the vehicle allowing it to be registered?
I know the procedures in the USA (there are several loopholes) but not for the UK.
I should also point out that in the SECOND listing on eBay, Hewett changed the description and never mentioned it as a 1964 model year vehicle, just that it was "registered as a 1964".
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Below is debate not argueing before you wade into it, or not, thinking it an answer to P50 position on the original subject. Basically matter arising.
Going back to the topic of creating a fake/replica. It is an interesting situation. If you were to attempt to replicate a design protected by law you will run the risk of getting sued. As in the Chevron case even though the original company had long gone the world construction rights remained live and we have a court case. I am not sure what the case was with the AC Cobra but AC still exist so presumably they chose not to persue those who first made replica Cobras. There are many differing versions now and several are reasonably accurate while others are actually better than the real thing having incorporated modern technology into the resulting cars on the road. It would appear the situation with Peels is analogous to the second case. However what would happen if an heir of Cyril Cannel turned up with a right to produce the Peel cars and a budget to go to law? We revert to the first position I guess. I think one person might have a substantial defence case that he had been in the possession of the technology to build cars long enough to have gained production by right but I really do not know if this works on rights, it does not with books for instance.
I therefore maintain that to make a replica is a calculated risk in investment terms. However to muddy the waters if you have the identity of a car destroyed physically it is possible to rebuild that car back to a functioning machine. This is not illegal though there have been disagreements over registration once finished on occasions and the original number has been denied to the car while the chassis number has been accepted. There have been cases of cars being rebuilt only to find that there are two of them.... off to court we go. But the key element would seem to be that you need to hold the chassis number and preferably proving paperwork. You could argue that a rebuilt car and a replica can be identical save for the attachment of an original chassis plate but one is a 'real' car the other not.
As we rightly define the real illegality proceedable by anyone is to make false statements about a car to sell it. Effectively passing the fake off as a genuine car etc. However every good replica made can at some point result in this occurring even if the originator was clear he was creating a fake for his own satisfaction. That is the real danger of these cars as they pass through several owners each changing the history a little enhancing the credentials and thus hopefully the value. A favoured route is an auction as many a tale is told on auction notes. If done well they cannot be bounced and the auction legitimises the history. I have seen this done in the trade and had close shaves with several wrong 'uns created out of the dust into very convincing machines which upon investigation are nigh on worthless. I will always take the view the fakes effect prices. This might be to increase them but equally it can depress them, not least if it becomes impossible to tell real from false. An investor either needs an expert to advise him or he cannot buy with confidence. There are easier investments around. So just because Peels are hot now does not mean they will go up for ever. There could be payback.
None of this effects the guy who just wants a Peel with a Vespa engine in it and the wrong size wheels. His only worry is how to get a registration. He is not fooling anyone and is not trying to. However the system of registration actually encourage him to look to try and gain one of the original IDs as it is a simpler way to gain a registration avoiding tests, paperwork and Spot Bots. So the system in a way conspires to encourage folk to gain original registrations for fakes which is counter to what it should be doing, unless we accept Big Brother says you cannot have a weird car if you want one. Thus we have the value of keeping accurate registers of rare and easy to replicate cars in the public domain as the room for the faker is cut to a minimium if there is clear information available. Sadly this does not happen for various reasons, not least legal, so the buyer is placed in a rather weak position and a clever faker in a pretty strong one if he is devious enough to access the restricted record database.
Be interested in debate as I am in no way saying the above is correct as I do not know for sure.
Here's a real story. Don't quote me to the nth degree but the basics are there...........
There was once a GT40 spyder. One off I think. Built by SVO in Essex late 60's. Raced in the day and got smashed to bits on its first outing. Ford stripped it back at the works. Then SCRAPPED the remains.. A twisted tub.
So Fords records say scrapped/destroyed. THEN..... Along comes Mr Smith in the 90's and builds a tool room copy and manages to blag the og i.d.
That gents is the SCAM. Blagging the OG I.D. Mr Smith is happy as a pig in pooh.
Fast forward. NULABIA and Mr Coe get the 2012 Olympics. (yawn..) Compulsary purchase order in Straford by the government (Mr H likes those sort of things. Bastard government and a faceless civil service scrote steam rollering through a persons life. We'll let big Al comment on that topic at a later date..........).
Seems the scrap yard owner decided to not crush the Spyder. He stashed the hulk away down in a Stratford lockup in late 60's. It turned up and went mainstream. Mr Smith had to give up his I.D. live 'o. The civil service scrote who allowed the rep to acquire the I.D. should be sacked.
In short don't go getting big ideas on building the electric Trident. It WILL turn up and you will be looking very stupid!
A car's I.D. is it's stamped chassis, tag or number. You have that then you have the car. Basically the OG car cannot turn up.
Simples!
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We have the DVLA.
They assign members of clubs as experts qualified to assess and approve registration of a car that has lost it's paperwork but not it's I.D.
Not a problem with a '55 Beetle. BIG problem with faking a Peel. Seem's it's sold. Prob going to the States.
Oddly enough I had major problems keeping the OG registration on my CZ100 despite having a '62 log book. Because the dude at the VJMC (vintage jap club) decided my bike was a '61 despite log book saying '62.
Doubt dude who signed off D107 was as vigilent.....
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is there any way to find out WHO from WHAT CLUB signed off on D107?
The GT40 Spyder story was good.
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I'm sure there's a way of finding out who signed it off.
It wasn't Jean et al.
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I have asked the question of the DVLA Swansea, their V765 department and I am awaiting their answer. Jean
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I assume you have all read about the Bugatti that was chucked into a Swiss lake as the owner refused to pay to import it yonks ago. Someone assumed the car would never be recovered from the lake and restored. He therefore created a very fine copy of the car and it ended up with a Japanese collector who paid a very substantial price for it. The price of Bugattis being now such that it was economic to recover the discarded lakebed original this car was located, extracted and put to restoration only to find it already existed! Oh Dear! One very upset Japanese chap. I think an auction house is implicated in building up the 'history' of the fake.
There are many similar tales. Take care, buyers.
RUMcar can only increase its standing for registration retention in DVLA's eyes by Jean asking questions. It proves that this agent at least takes its status as supporting authentic machinery seriously. This might pay dividends for owners of some of the more eccentric machinery which might not simply fit the system.