RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: Bob Purton on May 27, 2011, 04:20:17 pm
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BLACKJACK-CLASSIC-3-WHEELER-sports-car-/320704038087?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4aab7344c7
Always had a soft spot for these, not cheap though.
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Dear Bob
I like the 2x2 bonnet support stay. Very classy.
A future classic Microcar
Chris Thomas
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Do any kit cars ever become classic? I dont know as I'm not into kit cars unlike yourself chris, I just like the lines of these. I dont even consider them to be microcars, just three wheeler sports cars. Not mad on the colour of this one though.
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And there was me thinking you were making a kit car!! ;D
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Do any kit cars ever become classic? I dont know as I'm not into kit cars unlike yourself chris, I just like the lines of these. I dont even consider them to be microcars, just three wheeler sports cars. Not mad on the colour of this one though.
In a way, yes. Mini Marcos, Ginetta etc are on the cusp.
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Dear Bob
If the car falls into the Microcar classification, then it should not matter if they are assembled in a factory or in your garage. Most restored cars are re assembled in the owners garage. What difference should that make.
As far as classics are concerned no kit car will ever obtain the classic status of say a Messerschmitt or a Peel, but some are more worthy of being preserved than others, that were just rubbish. Most kit cars were over engineered in parts and under engineered in others, misconceived and often ugly to boot. But some were technically very interesting but failed because there was no market for them, or were not marketed correctly, while some have gone on to become small UK manufacturers in their own right, like the Caterham 7, Ginetta and Marcos
My experience with a black jack was that I could not get into it, so I have never driven one, but you would be OK.
Chris Thomas.
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No change there then Chris. :D On reflection I guess the Triking has made classic status, virtually impossible to find for sale these days. About Blackjacks, I wasn't suggesting that they are not microcars because they are kits, a Unicar could be bought in kit form and I believe some Friskies also were but all the morganesk three wheelers, BRA, JZR, Triking, Pembleton etc all seem to me to be in a different class, more like a trike class. The parameters of what constitutes a microcar have been debated many times, I am still of the opinion that its up to the individual to decide what is a microcar, and for me 2CV's and there deriviants are not, no more than a Reliant Regal is. Just my opinion. Others will disagree.
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My view on this is based on the belief that there is such a thing as a light car. A 2cv is a light car. There is nothing about a 2cv that is genuinely micro despite it being minimalist in many ways. See also DAF, Fiat 600, Trabant and so on. With microcars tending to be collectable it is the light cars that represent a source of excellent cheap classic fun. Of course there is a blurred edge but in essence a microcar is minimalist to a far greater degree than a lightcar and of course, small. Often too small to be useful in size or engine or both. Tricycles have there own following which splices into Micro/Light cars. To me a Reliant is a light car not a microcar. That does not mean I do not like them or degrade them, it just is. Likewise kit cars splice. There are very few kit cars that are microcars though. Most are light cars with trikes being small in accommodation by choice of wheel-plan rather than by other design constraints. Many micros are trikes because of reduced tax, drag and power source/engineering choices to make lightweight cars. There is a subtle difference.
The only real issue which I wonder about is that Microcar Rallies are tending to field more Light cars and less used Microcars in direct proportion to the alleged value of said microcars. I can only assume, therefore, that a differing type of person is taking ownership of the Microcars even if it is through age, though collections of cars reduce the pool of available cars to go to each event unless the collectors choose to buy small car transporters. It is therefore not surprising that quite a few cars in use at events called microcar rallies are actually light cars/kitcars since they keep up with traffic and are cheaper to buy and maintain in many cases. You can see where this situation can lead in respect of Microcar rallies really being microcar rallies as they used to be. 'Herds of micros sweep majestically across the plane' seems to be slightly less likely these days.
As to if kitcars are to be classic. Yes they are. Look at the 50's specials which are now becoming rare collectables with quite bashed about modified ones being returned to 'traditional' period form. They are not worth a great deal and the scene is very like that of the early Burford days in Micros. Where is their rally, Burford! Attend and find a group of nutters who are really into these things with great knowledge. They have the same outcast attitude from years of ridicule from mainstream classic car types. All rather refreshing in fact. The early kitcars are on the move and certainly classic motor sport varieties are becoming very expensive. It is area of great interest to me as I dabbled in kitcars. Get Filbys purple covered book on kitcars and just about every on in there is a collectable. Perhaps part of the attraction to me is that it is a very hands on hobby, as was microcars, because it is hard and/or expensive to buy in the skills to turn a car into a genuinely usable machine. Especially when it has little residual value. These folk have interesting tales to tell and technical know how. Collectors can be interesting but can also be totally none grubby folk with no technical skills. I begin to drift from being able to be fully connected to their interest as I am primarily a fiddler over a collector or driver.
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Yep. I go along with all that Al.
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so do i al . but what is it about Reliants ! i just cannot get interested in them at all - APART from those Mark I's and then the really very nice indeed jelly mould Mark II's - in fact is it just the later cars that don't seem interesting to the majority of micro owners ?
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so do i al . but what is it about Reliants ! i just cannot get interested in them at all - APART from those Mark I's and then the really very nice indeed jelly mould Mark II's - in fact is it just the later cars that don't seem interesting to the majority of micro owners ?
If we all liked or loathed the same things it would be a boring old world - oh modern cars, yawn. My concern is that someone should love every car even if I do not. Allegro, never saw it but they do. Reliants less so but I do not wish to own one, even the friendly round type. I think Micro types perhaps accuse them of helping to kill off the bubblecars by being a better purchase. As such hard to justify but the feeling does not go away!
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Dear Friends
I am amazed that nobody has put in a bid for this car, Usually somebody has a go. It will be interesting to see if it comes back on again.
Chris Thomas
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Maybe it was the colour that put folks off or the starting price with reserve?
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Maybe it was that there are quite a few 'genuine' Morgan replicas for sale at that or more money. A 500/650cc Honda lump sounds more exciting than a 2CV unit. With all this choice of modern trikes the fewer people with it cannot decide were they are going to spend there money to gain the best deal. Never give the customer a choice! I would also suggest the market is softening now. Crap sells, MInters sell - but not on eBay normally unless underprice, see classified for them. The stuff in the middle, hard work.
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Reliants remain the only affordable car from the "bubblecar" era,and even then prices have doubled from what i used to pay a few years ago,and as such have their own following,unless you have thousands in the bank and like to trailer things everywhere,micro ownership is beyond reach of the majority of those like myself interested in them
The Mini killed off the bubbles,the Reliant catered for those that hadnt got a car licence after they had gone.im quite pleased however that the Reliant outlived the mini by a few months ;D
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Reliants remain the only affordable car from the "bubblecar" era,and even then prices have doubled from what i used to pay a few years ago,and as such have their own following,unless you have thousands in the bank and like to trailer things everywhere,micro ownership is beyond reach of the majority of those like myself interested in them
The Mini killed off the bubbles,the Reliant catered for those that hadnt got a car licence after they had gone.im quite pleased however that the Reliant outlived the mini by a few months ;D
Sadly this has come to pass in the main save a few odd forgotten areas of machinery. I do like the fact that for years the Mini sold at a loss in real terms. Easy then to effect the competing vehicles in the market. So would it have been so successful at a correctly marketed value? I doubt any of the MIcrocars would have survived but Reliant's story might have been different!
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yes i remember watching a documentary on the 25 or 30 year celebration of the mini and they had never made money . no-one had ever even costed the mini they just produced a car to sell at a price to finish off the bubbles and it never occurred to them apparently that they were selling below cost for decades ! i wonder why we have no large scale car industry left ? ;)
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Don't get me started on the Mini and its alleged ground breaking design from hero Issigonis, he of Morris Minor fame where it had to be cut in half and have a bit added so it could be sat in by the production engineers and didn't fall over on corners! The Mini had no new ideas but assembled a set of existing ideas in a package. This was then marginalised by costs and production constraints and the designer failed to understand its motor sport potential amongst other crass and obstinate decisions, even insisting on having hydroelastic suspension fitted, which was so crap on such a short car that it was removed by anyone who wanted to get cracking and by the factory after a while. The thing was a manufacturing muck up and outsold in its prime by many and varied other small cars. The 1100/1300 was actually arguably the better car out of the idea and made money! By accident the Mini was really good for Motor Sport but only by dint of going through Special Tuning at Abingdon and links with independents like Arden Engineering where much of the car was altered away from interference from the powers that be. Even the success of the Cooper was not realised as the management begrudged paying him some £2 for the use of his name and they eventually throttled the ST inspired Cooper S by putting crap bits all over it. What a bunch of idiots!
See also Maxi, failed world beater 5 door car before they were everywhere. The first of what is the standard modern car layout now. See Allegro, worse than the car it replaced! etc etc. It all happened just down the road and the entire area was economically tied to Swindon, Cowley and Abingdon at the time. The picked over carcass is Honda, BMW Mini and several trading estates, girt warehouses staffed by 18 people and a computer plus areas of unused land/derelict buildings with 'development potential'. The manufacturing jobs still have not all been replaced.
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In the late seventies myself and two other guys started a car breaking concern where we stripped down cars , cleaned the parts and sold them off the shelf in a little shop at North Ockendon. If I can say one thing for the BL cars, they were all driven in for breaking, all the Fords had to be towed in. As a result of Lucas electrics and SU carbs the motors proved to be reliable, most got broken due to rotted subframes.