RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on September 21, 2011, 03:02:01 pm
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As Has been pointed out in the latest RCN we are now to expect higher levels of ethanol in our petrol. I also recently read that most of the tank sealant that classic vehicle owners use will break down in our tanks and cause an unholy mess! I have at least one car with a tank liner that is five years old. I guess I'm going to have to somehow remove it and start again with an ethanol proof product. Can anyone recommend a product?
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there are a number of people out there spreading rumours on any number of topics with no evidence to back them up.
a lot of people have "sealed" their tanks improperly in the past, not preparing the surfaces correctly etc. The failure of those liners now is not the fault of ethanol in the fuel.
Few people like to admit they made a mistake or took a shortcut. Much easier to place the blame on something or someone else.
I know one person that bought an Isetta from someone who "sealed" the tank with fiberglas resin. Just resin and hardener.
worked well for about a month, then it all came apart.
the seller blamed the buyer for "using cheap gas" instead of taking responsibility.
I find it difficult to believe that the UK has completely different types of tank sealant kits than we have in the States and we have had 10% ethanol in a lot of fuels for many years.
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Thanks Jim. I posed the question because several of the tank liner companies are advertising new Ethanol proof products so it must make some difference. I guess we will all find out soon enough! A lot of classic racing motorcycles also have all fiberglass tanks on them. I think these guys could be in trouble.
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certainly the classic bike brigade are up in arms on the issue . pet-seal is the main product in uk and i think there is concern here. many 60's 70's bikes had fibreglass tanks , my '67 BSA B25 Barracuda was one , i believe this is really a worry .
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I didnt know BSA Barracuda had a fiberglass tank. You live and learn.
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it was one of those jelly mould ones , i think Royal Enfield had a couple of fibreglass tanks and maybe Norman as well . fibreglass was , and is ? , often used to create a more curvy shape. however fibreglass doesnt seem to be the only problem.
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The Dart has a GRP tank as well.
My experience is that the British market sealants used to be stripped off by German grade fuel and vice versa. Cannot tell what the difference was between their Lead free Benzine and our cheap Petrol but there was something. Is there still a problem there? Do not know. Whatever they were doing to their Benzine both the Bullnosed Saab and Schmitt preferred it to our stuff. Smoother and better performance and less vapour based issues. I would suggest even though called Benzine there was less benzine in it!
The worry about Ethanol is it once again has a lower vaporisation point then petrol. So 10% more volatile components in your air-cooled car. Tuning is going to become ever more important to be able to drive the cars as any vaporisation will lead to a weak mixture and a catch 22 on overheating plus associated wear.
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Another issue is its effect on paintwork. When the Italian lightweight boys do the MotoGiro in Italy they come home with great chunks of paint striped off there tanks! Ok, they should be more careful to avoid spillages but never the less this doesn't happen with the UK petrol, I wonder if we will see more of this now?
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it was one of those jelly mould ones , i think Royal Enfield had a couple of fibreglass tanks and maybe Norman as well . fibreglass was , and is ? , often used to create a more curvy shape. however fibreglass doesnt seem to be the only problem.
Not a microcar question I know but whats the difference between a Barracuda and a Starfire?
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it was one of those jelly mould ones , i think Royal Enfield had a couple of fibreglass tanks and maybe Norman as well . fibreglass was , and is ? , often used to create a more curvy shape. however fibreglass doesnt seem to be the only problem.
Not a microcar question I know but whats the difference between a Barracuda and a Starfire?
David Attenborough introduces one and the other was on Battlestar Galactica, I think. Sorry this is what happens if you put petrol in Ethanol!
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oh bo you will have us banned for none micro talk - ok i will whisper. in 1979/80 i restored a rather grey porridge 350 lightweight Matchless ( hence my nickname in the club newsletter ) as completion loomed i realised i had no full licence to ride a 350. i had only at that time ridden a 250 c15 BSA and a 50cc Suzuki . so i sought out a 250 to take my test . the '67 Barracuda i bought was a different beast from the c15 !! do you have a copy of british motorcycles of the 1960's by roy bacon ? he writes ; the '67 c25 barracuda presented a new image .... square finned barrel,sculptured petrol tank and shapely side covers ...high performance...hot cams..high compression ratio... with the the same performance as the 441cc victor but with more effort . the c25 was also built as the b25 starfire for the usa - by '68 the barracuda was only listed as the b25 starfire. well you asked :D terrific bikes though - i wouldnt mind another
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it was one of those jelly mould ones , i think Royal Enfield had a couple of fibreglass tanks and maybe Norman as well . fibreglass was , and is ? , often used to create a more curvy shape. however fibreglass doesnt seem to be the only problem.
Not a microcar question I know but whats the difference between a Barracuda and a Starfire?
David Attenborough introduces one and the other was on Battlestar Galactica, I think. Sorry this is what happens if you put petrol in Ethanol!
You really will have to stop sniffing the stuff Al.
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oh bo you will have us banned for none micro talk - ok i will whisper. in 1979/80 i restored a rather grey porridge 350 lightweight Matchless ( hence my nickname in the club newsletter ) as completion loomed i realised i had no full licence to ride a 350. i had only at that time ridden a 250 c15 BSA and a 50cc Suzuki . so i sought out a 250 to take my test . the '67 Barracuda i bought was a different beast from the c15 !! do you have a copy of british motorcycles of the 1960's by roy bacon ? he writes ; the '67 c25 barracuda presented a new image .... square finned barrel,sculptured petrol tank and shapely side covers ...high performance...hot cams..high compression ratio... with the the same performance as the 441cc victor but with more effort . the c25 was also built as the b25 starfire for the usa - by '68 the barracuda was only listed as the b25 starfire. well you asked :D terrific bikes though - i wouldnt mind another
I always wondered why you were called lightwieght Richard, now I know. So the Barracuda is a more tuned beast then and the Starefire a rebadged C15. It explains a lot. My Motobi Catria 175cc see's off all the old 500 Triumph/bsa stuff. They obviously needed something to compete with the Italians. Thanks for the explanation. Now slap rists and back to microcars!
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no bob ! the barracuda and starfire are THE SAME . barracuda for the english market became starfire for the u.s. then by '68 starfire for both markets . very temperamental kicked back like a mule but by god a lively ride. :o
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Ah! Got ha! You have to be patient with us Essex folk, its all the inbreeding you know!
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My Trident has a new tank which is seperate as we know so one assumes the new resin and fibreglass will be OK.
However I've heard grim things about the P50. 50 year old fibreglass which is part of the body. I think the future will be a secondary tank if one wishes to actually drive your P50.
Or hacking the thing open. Grim. I think the former solution to be the best.
A one litre tank should give you approx 15 - 20 miles.
Enough for a trundle.
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Ah! Got ha! You have to be patient with us Essex folk, its all the inbreeding you know!
I thought that was the fens?
I had a 5th share in a C15 hidden in an old ladies garage near school. I had to rebuild it after crashing it into the River Frome. Always was useless on a bike! A Barracuda might have floated a bit better or I might have gone in deeper!
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funny my c15 was also a half share ! kept in a hidden shed . £15 - £20 at the time - a weeks wages then for a teen .
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It is true that in europe they are pushing for more and more ethanol in fuel. This is nothing really new, there is already quiet a lot of it in fuel.
Old fuel tank sealants, and especially old fuel system components like carb/fuel pump diaphragms and seals, get eaten by ethanol. So if your car has been last rebuilt before ethanol was put in fuel, you have to rebuild the fuel system.
This is an even bigger problem because a lot of carb or fuel pump rebuild kits on the market are new-old-stock, which are of course just as useless as your old ones, since they will just fail quickly. They have to be components made from new ethanol-stable materials.
The best tank sealer by far is the POR-15 branded product.
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two ads in the latest OBM - old bike mart
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yes alcool in petrol is a problem .
as you said, it eats all classic gaskets and seals ; first the crankshaft seals "spi" that guarantee the good 2 strokes function .... the medecine is " viton seals " brown colored made with a sort of teflon , that can resist .
but with gas tanks, there 's actually a problem ! as i'm professional, and able to apply products correctly( i beleive ! ), my last one made, for my customers and for my own scooters had strip off from one week to one month after first use .
asking the factory where was the problems, they told me about ethanol .... ethanol , or alcool is the product used to remove paints ou chemical products ( the other family of remover is acetone ) and actually they didn't have products able to resist ...(our french restom creator tells you that you made bad preparation !!! ....easy no??)
what we use as sealant product is epoxy resin with "fuel " resistance , used in industry to cover big tanks in refineries . gfr resin is not able to resist ... .we look for better product , no matter the cost, and the best they had what writen in notice "good for petrol, gas oil, super gas ,but no for gas with additives ...
the other solution actually possible is tin covering .... but to cover , they must cut the tank to put it in hot tin and TIG welding it after . this is for me not ok, because the welding line won't be tin covered and heat may cause tin fusion on the edge of welding line ... it has to be clued before thinking of that process .
what is my solution :
rust off tank with acid ; let it like this ,( or with old resined tanks ) and never let gas inside more than two weeks without using vehicule .( remember that new ethanol gas loose its property after 3 month )
don't forget that ethanol gas may react too with zamac carbs making craters ....
so i have a gas jerrycan ; fill up my scooter or bubblecar , have a trip , then when it won"t be used in the next weekend , pump the gas out of my tank with manuel pump ( like renault 4 gas pump ) and let it flew down the jerrycan with gravity ... then start the engine to empty line and carburator ...
a little work, but no problems . and only about 20 liters home filling from one to other ...
when i get a scooter or microcar for a ride, new gas , kick start and ride !
i hope they'll found quickly good chemical product , fisrt because petrol bussiness is very imortant ...
hope my experience helps you too...