RUMCars Forum
General Category => Sales & Auctions => Topic started by: super-se7en (Malc Dudley) on February 18, 2013, 10:53:44 am
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At the moment there are very interesting micro cars on ebay (20 off) that would not cost the price of one of the auction lots.
First my apologies to Richard as i have not yet mastered how to link these to ebay but am still trying.
1) A Berkeley SA322 being a complete one owner unmolested car with 13000 miles. ref 32174993112
2) A Berkeley 492 complete with the oh so rare triple engine ref 350716903116
3)1962 Trojan that is taxed and tested and looks tidy at buy it now of £6000 ref 170992157613
4) Fibreglass's 16 microcars including a coronet all now on eBay ref 321074936984
5) The Frisky F3 over priced at £3995 ref 170989764234
There are still affordable micro cars out there for the enthusiast and long may it continue.
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1) A Berkeley SA322 being a complete one owner unmolested car with 13000 miles. ref 32174993112
I get "zero results found " when searching with this number. Could you recheck for it please?
Thanks,
Steve
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Just typed in berkeley sa322 and there it was not rocket science . Another one crossing the pond ?
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/321074993112
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Well that is no money at the moment. Had one of these and I think it is a better engine than the Excelsior. Rare and pretty car but not washed so no points on the Bling scale! If it goes abroad make them pay for it!!!
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Well that is no money at the moment. Had one of these and I think it is a better engine than the Excelsior. Rare and pretty car but not washed so no points on the Bling scale! If it goes abroad make them pay for it!!!
One way in which we may be able to hang on to a few more of our home grown microcars is to not flag up everything that comes up for sale on this forum. We are our own worst enemy!
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Don't think I hav been guilty but have flagged up oddities like gordon fuel cap etc. Whay are they thinkig of ? Really annoying actually ;)
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This thread is a case in point. Soneones makes a good observation that there are still cars to be had here at reasonable prices but then tells the whole world where they all are! Kind of works against the original point doesn't it? Some may argue that overseas preditors would find them anyway but why make it easy for them? ??? There was a time when we had our own network of enthusiasts, cars would change hands within the network as we all knew what each other were looking out for. Maybe that's just too idealistic for the kind of world we now live in.
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I am beginning to think bob is right and so i will refrain from highlighting auction sites. Thought i was helping to keep enthusiasts informed.
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Hmmm yes but the enthusiasts were already informed and now the merely speculative may be . Obviously then no members would aid exporting our rare cars then . No names mentioned
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Dear Friends
You can not have it both ways. It sounds like you want a cartel when you want to buy to undercut the market and you want an open market to get the best price when you sell.
The fact that less than 50% of the cars up for sale on eBay do not sell means that a maximum of 50% can be manipulated, and probably only half of the 50% may be manipulated in the way you suggest, so 75% should be Kosher.
It would ne nice if bargains dropped into our laps, but the reality is the harder you work at something the more rewarding it becomes.
Let us not forget that there are people among us who regularly buy cars in France and sell them here in the UK, because they can turn a profit. The same can be said for those from other countries who do the same here and export to some other country. We are not sqeeky clean on this issue.
I can understand Bobs frustration that he has previously sold cars to museums on the basis that they were held in trust, but that also deserves the N word as nothing in this life is for ever. UK museums trusts have a system whereby they have to offer any cars to another museum first if they want to dispose of it. If nobody wants it then it is put on the open market. This hopefully keeps things in the UK, but is not a foolproof.
As for announcing what people have seen on Ebay for sale, I find this very helpful as it is circulated within the forum. It may be that Jim could make that section not visible to non members, I do not know, we need his advice on that. It would be a shame if that thread was lost completely.
Chris Thomas
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Hmmm yes but the enthusiasts were already informed and now the merely speculative may be . Obviously then no members would aid exporting our rare cars then . No names mentioned
There's a dilemma here! I think prices are going to go up, just not the the Weiner level - and there are lots of crazy prices out there already for our types of cars.
However, anyone who does not sell for the highest price to whoever comes along to buy their car is leaving themselves open to someone else doing that after they buy the car from them
Despite a couple of ludicrous offers, my schmitt sits in the garage, where it has been since last taxed in 1999, and has just been moved 20 miles to its new home. I paid £200 for it and could have sold a few times in the past couple of years for £8-9,000. Have I been tempted? No!! It isn't for sale, nor is it likely to be for sale - but if it was, it would be advertised (as a non runner, needing a restoration) for a five figure sum. Would I care who bought it? yes, I would, but it would be going where I would get most money for it.
IN the past, my two Goggo coupes were imported into the UK, and reexported to Italy some fifteen years later, the Mochet was imported and a Berkeley was exported as payment for it. My land Rover Dormobile was sold to a German and now resides in Switzerland. It isn't difficult to buy or sell a car abroad!
Here are some here that may tempt you
Mochet Velocar 1600 Euros
http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/434227637.htm?ca=1_s
A CM 125 3000 Euros
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/401076835.htm?ca=1_s
Microcar Tom Car 750 Euros
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/355690547.htm?ca=1_s
There's a Rovin for sale there too just now, and interesting micros come up all the time.
In the case of this sale, a huge premium was paid, as it was in 1997, for a car from the Bruce Weiner collection. The cars will jump up in value and a tidy looking roadworthy Messerschmitt will be above the £15k mark now, with restored examples already for sale at a cost greater than some of the lesser Weiner cars. Do I care? No! Course not, after all, I already own one and it isn't for sale.
Would I buy one now - definitely not - just in the same way as I wish I had bought a 60s Porsche 912 when they could be had for £4-6000, or a Citroen DS when they could be bought for a grand, or wish I hadn't sold my Vauxhall PA Crestas when I did. You can still buy cheap and have a great fun car. It just won't be a Messerschmitt, an Isetta or even a Heinkel.
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As for announcing what people have seen on Ebay for sale, I find this very helpful as it is circulated within the forum. It may be that Jim could make that section not visible to non members, I do not know, we need his advice on that. It would be a shame if that thread was lost completely.
I am fairly certain that is a trivial thing to implement here if that is really what people want.
You guys figure it out, I am not going to make the decision for you.
Obviously it would not affect anyone signed in, only those that choose to browse and not participate.
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I never suggested that Jim.
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Dear Friends
"You can not have it both ways. It sounds like you want a cartel when you want to buy to undercut the market and you want an open market to get the best price when you sell. "
No that wasn't what I was suggesting Chris, the last two cars I parted with, my Schmitt and a scootacar were both sold below the market price to chaps in the UK fold because I was more interested in placing the cars in the ownership of people I knew and stood a good chance of seeing again at events than in squeezing every last penny out of them. [maybe im a fool!]They are both still in the country and I have seen them both recently.
Yes I have sold cars abroad in the parts and yes I have recently helped a "chum" export a car {i didn't sell it to them} but in the light of recent events I am changing my outlook on the whole scene. Not telling anyone else what to do , just sharing my current thoughts on the matter. I just fear that soon we may feel like a native of Mauritius looking for a Dodo supper!
"As for announcing what people have seen on Ebay for sale, I find this very helpful as it is circulated within the forum" It is helpfull if you are a casual browser just looking out of interest like yourself Chris but for many of us it can be a curse.
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I never suggested that Jim.
I never said you did. Chris Thomas made the suggestion.
But I am not going to act on it unless the regular users of the forum want it.
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It would be interesting to know how much prices are really going up. I don't mean that they aren't, but you do have to remove inflation from the equation. Expressing prices as a percentage of a small new car would be interesting*.
Isn't £1,000 the "giving it away for nothing" mark nowadays?
* During decimalisation of British currency (and I think there's a few here old enough to remember that...), my sister then aged under 10 came up with the Mars index, where the price of an object was measured in the number of Mars bars and she found that pre-decimalisation and post-decimalisation Mars-prices were fairly constant.
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I never suggested that Jim.
I never said you did. Chris Thomas made the suggestion.
But I am not going to act on it unless the regular users of the forum want it.
I never said you said I did, but just in case someones said you said I said I did , I didnt! :D :D :D
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I find it very difficult to believe that anyone with the nous and sophistication to take the time and effort to look up rare or unusual cars advertised for sale on Ebay that are subsequently mentioned on the Rumcars site would not have the nous and sophistication to find them on Ebay in the first place - you can Ebay to email you everytime the magic word that you're searching for appears for sale on any of their sites, so why bother with the more hit and miss approach of watching the RumCars forum? On the contrary, I think putting Ebay listings on the Rumcars site has identified a number of fradulent adverts, slightly dodgy cars and clear examples of over-priced vehicles that have hung around on Ebay for months and months. Whether Ebay has any merit as a price guide is a lot less certain, but it can't be any worse than the guides that appear in the Classic car magazines.
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Following up that. When my Messerschmitt was stolen it become expedient to monitor eBay as one potential sales outlet for the car. In the three or four months of doing this the police clicked up 5 notches on the truncheon! This was from three dodgy deals involving Messerschmitts that led to investigation and arrest on that or another matter. I asked the Police about how the then dealt with eBay etc. They had two officers assigned! Part of the problem was clearly that without specialist knowledge or the shear extent of knowledge of the pool of cars they could not pick up the dodgy adverts like an enthusiast would. I therefore suggested to the FBHVC and some clubs that they should advise larger organizations, at least, to nominate an eBay monitor and report all dodgy looking adverts to the Police. As far as I know this has been ignored. Having dealt with my probs through the Police I can tell you they only act if you provide them with good quality ammunition to fire. I got my car back through the classified ads in the end.
So there is a good reason to float ads up on the forum. It is one of the things it is for and the information is in the public domain. Banning it is to effectively ban the forum's ability to function in favour of other sites that will discuss the topics. Pandora's box was opened the minute the Internet was invented, you cannot change that.
The answer to keeping cars in Britain is simple. We have to pay the going rate. What you are experiencing is the real cost of the Banking Crisis on our economy. We are loosing our buying power at an accelerating rate worldwide. That is not political, its a fact. An unpleasant one when you are on the receiving end. Given time we could all be pretty miffed all those Donkeys went into the beefburgers!
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Just typed in berkeley sa322 and there it was not rocket science . Another one crossing the pond ?
Well excuuuse me for not being a rocket scientist, and having the nerve to want to look at a microcar even though I wasn't born in jolly old England.
All I was doing was politely pointing out an error in the post that prevented the readers from being able to realize the benefit of the intended communication.
May I be allowed to humbly point put that several of the ensuing rants make the illogical, unsupportable and prejudicial assumption that anyone that lives off shore from your continent that is expressing an interest in viewing cars on EBay cannot be a true enthusiast, and is only in it for the money? Can they not want it for themselves?
I am a true enthusiast of only average means, who is guilty of the cardinal sin of not being born on your shores. I have never sold a single microcar, but value my interest highly enough to have taken 4 days out of my life and travelled 3000 miles last week to be part of Microcar history in the making. Where were your country's true blue, dyed in the wool, holier than thou, and more deserving enthusiasts then?
Now I see myself referred to as a "chum" after pre paying more than $1000 for services in good faith, providing instant live photos, pictures, telephone calls, and even follow up detective work on who the buyers were for 3 of your non US members when micros that they had a previous interest in crossed the block. All done out of pure enthusiasm, whilst not being enabled to buy anything due to the high prices at Bruce's auction.
If you must have a scapegoat that badly- why not make it Bruce, who has introduced interest in microcars to more people, and saved more of them than anyone else on the planet, or Jim who spent the whole time devoted to getting the live feed working. After all, they are foreigners that have bought microcars that originated from outside of their country also.
With the relatively high value of the GBP to USD, you have less to complain about than we do in the states, yet we don't crucify the English investors that are so enabled to "steal" our rust free California cars to resell at a profit back on your shores. Ditto the French for your fellow citizens taking of similar advantage in their country.
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Well !! :D you just threw what we call , in the queens english, a tizzy fit :D
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Bruce has saved more than anyone else on the planet - what rubbish I have nothing at all against bruce and have not said a word against him. Has he in fact saved any vehicle that was underthreat ? I may be wrong but I am not sure that he has
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Calm down Steven. This is not a new issue to be discussed on the forum. There are two British one make clubs that have a strict rule against exporting the cars, The Bond Owners club, and the Messerschmitt owners club. If you export a Messerschmitt [even though they are German cars] you get expelled from the club, if you export a Bond its certain death or worse still a visit from Stan with the" boys" ! :D Rum cars isnt a club and hence there are no rules and as you must have read so far some are against, some are for and some are indifferent. You have read others opinions , please respect them as we shall respect yours.
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Has he in fact saved any vehicle that was underthreat ? I may be wrong but I am not sure that he has
While a number of the vehicles in his collection were purchased as-is and never touched, he had a number of complete basket cases that he brought back from just a pile of parts.
The Fuji Cabin is the one that I think of first. He was offered it for the first collection, but turned it down on the advice of Peter Svilans (I think) that it was just too far gone to be able to be restored. (see attached pic of BEFORE)
Yet....he later acquired it and brought it back. It is a gorgeous vehicle.
The Kroboth was also nothing but a garbage pile of metal when it began. I had some reference photos of the ones in the Eingstingen (sp?) Museum that were used to help with the restoration.
I wrote a story for the magazine about his decades long chase for a guy who "collected" several KR200s and Tigers, but lacked storage space so they were all disassembled and stored in various sheds and barns. Most of those have been brought back from the dead.
I am pretty certain all the Mochets he had were just rusty buckets when he got them.
From the previous collection, a good number of the cars came from a "collection" in South Florida and they were rotted, but they got complete restorations.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
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Well you could say he saved the inter. Under it's previous ownership it might have ended up being used off road !! ;D
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Well it has certainly got everybody talking it is a funny subject cars leaving their native shores or where they were sold as Richard has a left hand drive Bond that I presume was reimported
It has happened for centuries you only have to look at the antique market
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Agreed. There must be a story to both my lhd cars - I just wish I knew them . Was my bond a factory show model ? Anyway it back in good old blighty by 1951. My bruetsch like all bruetschs , made by herr bruetsch ,was a demonstrator brought here and not sent back to him as he had debts to clear and he didn't .
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Are any of the cars coming to these shores I would have liked to bid but divorce threatened if I brought any more vehicles back home
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Are any of the cars coming to these shores I would have liked to bid but divorce threatened if I brought any more vehicles back home
I'm not aware of any at this time. I've been doing some cross-referencing of bidder numbers with people I met and stories told, so far everything stays in the States apart from a couple dozen going to Russia.
The Auction company has a list, but they will not release it, so some detective work is necessary to figure out anything.
Some were easy because I met the high bidder and they simply told me what they won. Other times I knew someone got one item so I checked their bidder number against other lots.
Winning bidder numbers were announced at the end of each lot, you had to write it down.
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Well excuuuse me for not being a rocket scientist...
I am a rocket scientist:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2790/4121300064_f4cc57fc27.jpg)
For what it's worth, I forgive you.
...and having the nerve to want to look at a microcar even though I wasn't born in jolly old England.
It depends on the circumstances. The only microcar I've removed from England was a wayward voiture sans permis that even the Bubblecar Museum didn't want. I believe the general British response was one of quiet gratitude for my efforts.
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jim - i obviously stand corrected - i apologise on that . he seems to be more in the same boat as the rest of us than i thought .
anyone taking sans permis from england is ok by me :)
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Well excuuuse me for not being a rocket scientist...
I am a rocket scientist!
For what it's worth, I forgive you.
Sorry that i did not turn out to be one, as the inclusion of my responce in shaded background erroneously implicating the following as a qoute could imply- but..
Come to think of it I have had a similar problem with clubs before. When I was in 8th grade I wrote a paper for my English class expousing that the man I most admired was Robert H. Goddard- inventor of the liquid fuel rocket. I have often thought how wonderfull it would have been to have been born with the opportunity to develop same. That was also the year that I successfully defeated a motion to ban me from my local Model Rocket Club, where they all used Estes, and sometimes the bigger Centuar solid fuel engines to propel our model rockets. My favorite was the long burn 7.5 lb thrust Centuar as about half of these would just barely clear the pad before disintegrating in a huge explosion.
The reason for my intended impeachment was that I preferred making my own engines. I think it was the one that I topped off one with the conical metal tip from a ski pole packed with my own blended explosive and included shrapnel that got them the most upset, as I deliberately left out the parachute and sent everbody ducking for cover before it exploded on impact as designed, and the shrapnel could be heard wistling through the nearby forest.
I do feel better now. Funny that a cathartic effect can be felt after a 40 year interlude.
Also interesting that I ended up moving 3000 miles to find myself living in the very city that Mr. Goddard lived in and had the High School named in his honor.
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jim - i obviously stand corrected - i apologise on that . he seems to be more in the same boat as the rest of us than i thought .
anyone taking sans permis from england is ok by me :)
The main difference being that we mortals have to restore them our selves rather than throwing money at it. If I had the money I would do the same thing!
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Well excuuuse me for not being a rocket scientist, and having the nerve to want to look at a microcar even though I wasn't born in jolly old England.
All I was doing was politely pointing out an error in the post that prevented the readers from being able to realize the benefit of the intended communication.
May I be allowed to humbly point put that several of the ensuing rants make the illogical, unsupportable and prejudicial assumption that anyone that lives off shore from your continent that is expressing an interest in viewing cars on EBay cannot be a true enthusiast, and is only in it for the money? Can they not want it for themselves?
I am a true enthusiast of only average means, who is guilty of the cardinal sin of not being born on your shores. I have never sold a single microcar, but value my interest highly enough to have taken 4 days out of my life and travelled 3000 miles last week to be part of Microcar history in the making. Where were your country's true blue, dyed in the wool, holier than thou, and more deserving enthusiasts then?
Now I see myself referred to as a "chum" after pre paying more than $1000 for services in good faith, providing instant live photos, pictures, telephone calls, and even follow up detective work on who the buyers were for 3 of your non US members when micros that they had a previous interest in crossed the block. All done out of pure enthusiasm, whilst not being enabled to buy anything due to the high prices at Bruce's auction.
If you must have a scapegoat that badly- why not make it Bruce, who has introduced interest in microcars to more people, and saved more of them than anyone else on the planet, or Jim who spent the whole time devoted to getting the live feed working. After all, they are foreigners that have bought microcars that originated from outside of their country also.
With the relatively high value of the GBP to USD, you have less to complain about than we do in the states, yet we don't crucify the English investors that are so enabled to "steal" our rust free California cars to resell at a profit back on your shores. Ditto the French for your fellow citizens taking of similar advantage in their country.
Fundamentally my argument. This is a world interest now. Once the cars escape from Dorksville, Carrotshire. they are open to a world market. That market creates a price exclusive of national clubs etc and a value gradient based on shipping costs. You do not want to pay the access price then your not in the game unless you go to Dorksville to find further unknown cars that might be under-priced.
I am not sure I can quite go for Bruce 'rescuing' any cars, but what do I know. Perhaps it depends what you mean by rescue. I mean stuff that was due to be scrapped unless someone acted. He certainly made some machines accessible. What he has done is concentrated a world wide resource into one place. He looks to have reaped a reward for his ability to do that allied to his clear abilities to cut the crap in business and successfully publicize an event. Quite a few folk made good dosh from acting between Dorksville and Bruce's need to go there in the build up of this collection. Many of them used to have a hobby but decided to realign themselves to be more conscious of the values than be true to minimalist pursuits. Is that Bruce's fault? His auction was a natural product of predators trading on cash value as someone has to be top dog. Bruce invested more money than anyone else, I think, irrespective of his motives for doing so. So presumably part of the Auction was to establish who is the new top dog, with the same proviso? Indeed if the new main buyers are indeed enthusiasts then Carrotshire's enthusiasts just got priced out of the game, which is why eBay is not working for them. You have to get out and physically search for the stuff again. Incredibly it still seems to be out there.
I believe the Messerschmitt Owners Club dropped the no export ban rule some decade ago. It was unenforceable not least since some of the worst offenders were the Clubs own officials! This was even printed as a quote and investment tip in one serious National paper's investments section! But of course the MOC has been a Limited liability corporation rather than a club for about the same period. Innocence was sold in the deal, as it very often is.
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Thats news to me Al, it was certainly talked about as still being law when I was a member which was less than a decade ago, may be the moral U turn was not broadcast so that the officals could sin in secret? :D It never really made sense in my view as the cars came from Germany. I can understand more the BOC ruling.
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This raises a point bob. Hope you don't buy a lottery ticket or suchlike. If you won 6 million you would have to give up your hobby. I think it's possible to be wealthy and restore a car - in fact it might be rather nice :) for a change . After all how many of us do all our own restorations without professional assistance- chroming, upholstery , powder coating etc.
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I think if we were fortunate enough to win the lottery you would buy cars but let someone else do the hard work you may even end up like a British Bruce
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The only modification that I suggest to Al's commentary above is that the rewards that Bruce reaped from all of his obviouly successful publicity campaign were donated to a children's hospital. 9.1 million dollars is a great gift from a great man.
The above consideration gives greater meaning to the look of elation that I saw on Bruce's face just after the last car sold. It was the stray mut of the auction-a very derelict Larmar that had Big Al's name written all over it. It was the only one that I could afford to bid on, but alas at the sold price of $4, 600 even it was too expensive by my book.
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And I believe he actually made a loss on the larmar !I have never heard any mention previously of the charitable cause - is this common knowledge ?
i just googled bruce weiner charity auction thinking that those words would come up with something - they didn't so i tried bruce weiner childrens hospital and that came up with nothing either - odd though considering your recent information steve . he must be keeping it all quiet then ;)
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If thats true that would make me a happy man, not that I dont believe Steven but would be nice to see it in print somewhere.
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. he must be keeping it all quiet then ;)
Is that not the way it should be? Maybe he did it for the good of the cause and not for the good of any ego that those quick to condem the sale may think he has....
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Just unusual in the modern age not much is hidden from the www . But has managed to be . I wondered if steven had been asked to say nothing or had read it or what ?
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That is most definitely the way it should be, the left hand should not know what the right hand is doing. I despise charity amidst fanfair as it casts doubt on motive. I would still like confirmation though as rumours of all sort are rife and this could be just another one of them.
I wonder if Jim can confirm this, I notice he has gone very quite all of a sudden. :-\
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The only modification that I suggest to Al's commentary above is that the rewards that Bruce reaped from all of his obviouly successful publicity campaign were donated to a children's hospital. 9.1 million dollars is a great gift from a great man.
The above consideration gives greater meaning to the look of elation that I saw on Bruce's face just after the last car sold. It was the stray mut of the auction-a very derelict Larmar that had Big Al's name written all over it. It was the only one that I could afford to bid on, but alas at the sold price of $4, 600 even it was too expensive by my book.
As I have told, this Larmar was converted from an I.C. to a car version like I have. I suspect this did for it as much as as anything and I suspect why Bruce did nothing with it. Be interesting to know. I do know some while back he was most resistant to the idea of I.C. He was not hugely into GRP cars either at that time. So there were favourites.
Not heard about a donation either. Certainly he is a person who can make a difference and I am not talking about just his cash.
For Richard's view that is true, most have to restore their cars as best they can. However for the skilled, there opens the opportunity to take in restoration of those cars bought by wealthier owners. Years of acquired skills can be made to return and who better than they who know the cars intermatly to put them back together. It does not reduce the impact of a gradual rise in prices but it feeds money back down the chain. The other bonus of higher prices should be better spares availability. It has happened, but sadly not as much within the club structures as it should, so we are left with a fractured spares resource rather than mutually club based availability at perhaps less cost that a free market. You cannot blame the monied for that, more those who seek money and the ineffective management of certain clubs - so that would be our failure then. A despite, not as well as, situation for the cars to claim popularity. I continue to believe that the British scene has dropped the ball rather spectacularly here.
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sssssshhh leave the sleepers to lie ;)
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Well I didnt mention Bond MkA & Mk B OOooooops, I just did! :D
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I wonder if Jim can confirm this, I notice he has gone very quite all of a sudden. :-\
I died in a car accident. It must be true as I heard it from someone else.
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just googled that jim and can't find a mention of it so you must still be there tgft ;) if you weren't there the lunatics would definetly take over the asylum . definition of lunatic - someone with a different opinion than my own ;) and there seem to be a lot of you out there - odd isn't it .
why am I the only one marching in step ?
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Seems like Mr Mandell has some explaining to do then.