RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: li.ob.86 on November 18, 2013, 04:31:54 pm
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Hi Everyone,
I'm a new member on this page, my name is Linus and I'm from Gothenburg (Sweden). I am a man with a quite particular talent, I create what are known as class-A models (CAD-models of a very high quality). About a year ago I saw a picture of a Brütch Mopetta for the first time and I instantly fell in love. The result of my interests combined may not be hard to imagine. I started of with gathering all the information I could lay my hands on regarding the Mopetta, and about a month ago I started modelling the shell, an exquisitely slow and painstaking process. Since I'm doing this work as a spare time, personal project, I don't have a great deal of time to commit either, but slow progress is being made. Presently my goal is the production of two replicas, one for myself, and one more to sell, which could hopefully make the project brake even.
As you can imagine I don't have the luxury of a physical model for reference, but the internet you among others have provided me with loads of fantastic photos of the exterior.
Unfortunately, more specific details proved a lot harder to come by.
So here comes my request. I was hoping, and wishing, that you could help a poor rookie enthusiast out by sharing some grand sage knowledge. Something like a mystery serial number, a few leads or just some encouraging words. So far I think I've got a few things right, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
The motor is ILO piano V50 with 3 gears, the turn signals are Hella K13322 and the tail lights are Hella K2424. I'm guessing the headlight also is from Hella probably 6 inch, with an unknown chrome ring.
I have seen quite the variety of lenses for the headlight often looking like fog light lenses. The wheels seem to be assembled from modular parts, so chances are that they are a unique combination of (for me unknown) parts.
Lastly I'm starting to think the windshield was made exclusively for the Mopetta since I can't find it anywhere else.
If you feel like correcting any of my mistakes, filling in the blanks or know anything regarding the remaining details; Mirror, handles, gas cap, trim (stripe), knobs and buttons.
It would mean the world to me if you could help me out.
Sincerely Linus Öberg
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I realized you may want some additional input besides a serial number so here are some pictures for reference
(http://www.rollermobilclub.ch/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/_bdfgrb_bwk_kgrhquh-emernohsv5bk5juow_oq_12.jpg)
The ILO Piano V50 (I think this one belings to "piatti")
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/HELLA-K13322-BLINKER-mit-POSITIONSLEUCHTE-HEINKEL-KABINE-TROJAN-Kabinenroller-/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/z/0tMAAOxyM89Sc5~N/$(KGrHqN,!lkFJv,jlOcmBSc5+L5r1w~~60_12.JPG)(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Hella-K13322-Side-Marker-Indicator-Lights-Heinkel-Trojan-Brutsh-Mopetta-/00/s/MTAwMFg3NDY=/z/FS8AAMXQyfFR9q6N/$(KGrHqF,!lsFHUIBHk2BBR9q6N,yO!~~60_35.JPG)
The Hella K13322 turn indicator
(http://www.omega-oldtimer.de/shop/bmw/Media/Shop/all-8614-0003-g.jpg)
The Hella K2424 Tail Light
(http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq230/AllenImages/Hella%20Fog%20lights%206%20inch/IMG_7010.jpg)
Hella 6" foglights
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTk5WDgwMA==/z/5dUAAMXQCgpRonx7/$T2eC16JHJF8FFqMKLT9wBRon)64y+Q~~60_1.JPG?set_id=880000500F)
I forgot to mention, I'm suspecting that the mirror is an Albert DBGM, but the (neck?) doesn't seem to match. On the old photos it seems to be quite straight with a squarish connection to the body of the car.
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Are you using Solidworks Linus?
Perhaps you need to get in touch with someone who owns a Mopetta.
You need to see one in the flesh and measure it carefully.
Ideally you should borrow a real car for a while. Without this you will never get it quite right.
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Hi Barry, thanks for your response.
The programs most commonly used for class-a modelling are Alias automotive and Icem surf or Rhino 3d if you are on a tight budget. For the bodywork I'm currently using alias but I'm considering using Catia GSD for the more mechanical / repetitive details.
I have been searching high and low for a Mopetta in Sweden, but there doesn't seem to be one around. Luckily, we are often faced with building from pictures or sketches, since it's the designers preferred medium, and work is going quite well. My main problem for the moment is the diameter of the Headlight since it's a precise measurement that is in close connection to the bodywork.
My main reason for building the details is purely visual, at present I have not considered production of any of them, even if it could be done. When I start piecing together the real model, hopefully in a year or so, I am assuming that I will have to make do with knockoffs and incorrect parts.
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My ramblings Linus:-
I wonder if the original designers of the Mopetta had the luxury of continually blending free-form shapes to achieve a perfect end result?
We (my company) are not at the high-end of CAD solid modelling and surface modelling hence Solidworks and Rhino are fine. They can achieve 95% of what the high-end packages can do. Good enough for our requirements.
I think the guys at Brutch probably drew the body shape in 2D on tracing paper with general dimensions, then the model maker or even the pattern maker had a good stab at representing it as a full size model.
I wonder if using the very latest high-end CAD is overkill to achieve what Brutch achieved with hand tools. I bet Bob could make an exact copy with his flint scraper and bronze axe given time ;D
However, I can see the enjoyment and achievement in making an exact representation as a 3D solid model with perfect surfaces.
There are Mopetta shells around already that have been moulded from an original Mopetta body. It should be possible to borrow one of these, get it to Sweden, and measure it thoroughly - verifying your CAD.
Have you considered a 3D laser scan of an existing body (original or copy).
You project is a great thing to be working on and I look forward to seeing the end result.
Barry
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Hello! I cannot offer advice, but it is a great project, good luck!
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Oooooiii Barry I heard that, UG UG !!
Look, I've already made a start!
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Oooooiii Barry I heard that, UG UG !!
Look, I've already made a start!
Obviously an early cartoon of you in action...................
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Neanderthalean sprocket center after welding in lost metal.
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Sprocket center post a Neanderthal's weekend with a couple of hand files.
How about that Bob? You CroMagnon cheater that uses machines and electricity to do your dirty work.
If we want to really humble ourselves- try making an Achulean hand axe.
That will set our egos back a good quarter of a million years! :-\
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I think you are spot on Barry. In fact, chances are that Bob could reach a better result by hand than I will with CAD. The general shapes of cars in the 50's ere relatively organic, something that is difficult to replicate with the software we use today. (Thus the clearly defined separate surfaces seen on modern cars.) I still intend to go on with the project since I prefer CAD to "flint scrapers and bronze axes" :D
In other news, the motor quest is looking surprisingly positive, it seems that the ILO motors were popular moped motors in Sweden, and the swedes are a nostalgic people, especially concerning mopeds and the like. I haven't found the right type yet, but loads of literature, online support and close "relatives"
Getting hold of a shell would be fantastic, but I got the feeling that it would be difficult. The only place I've found a shell so far is at Andy's, and I'm guessing that someone who has a shell intends to use it, or is very protective of it. A laser scan/ point cloud/ mesh would also have been a dream come true, so if anyone has one that they are willing to share that would be awsome.
So far the Reference photo method is actually not working too bad, I have the basics of the shell and I'm currently working on the headlight mount. Considering the proportions I am starting to think that the headlight is more of a 5 inch, maybe even 4.
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As a matter of interest how many Carter replicas have actually seen final assembly and use ? It would be interesting to know . On the headlight I should know as I sold two last year , I would guess 100 mm German moped rather than larger but could not be certain now
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Getting hold of a shell would be fantastic, but I got the feeling that it would be difficult. The only place I've found a shell so far is at Andy's, and I'm guessing that someone who has a shell intends to use it, or is very protective of it. A laser scan/ point cloud/ mesh would also have been a dream come true, so if anyone has one that they are willing to share that would be awsome.
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Why not be practical about it?
Andy's quality of craftmanship is known to exceed that of the original manufacturers, and he would probably be happy to pop one out for you with a few month's notice.
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Oooooiii Barry I heard that, UG UG !!
Look, I've already made a start!
More recent cartoon of Bob at work!
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It's not a bad idea Steven, but for me half of the fun is the making of the model, after all that's what I do ;) If someone Would be willing to lend me a shell, that would be great. But if I purchase a shell to use as reference, I see no purpose in making a model, and i really want to make a model.
Regarding Richards post, I'm unfamiliar with "Carter replicas" what are they? ??? 100mm sounds about right do you have any idea what brand they were, I'm guessing Hella but confirmation is good.
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Here's the link for "Carter's replicas".
http://www.modernmicrocars.co.uk/ (http://www.modernmicrocars.co.uk/)
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You've probably looked at this site as well?
http://www.mopetta.rollermobilclub.ch/bilder.htm (http://www.mopetta.rollermobilclub.ch/bilder.htm)
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Oh of course, because he's Andy Carter ::) ...god I feel stupid
As a matter of fact I have only passed by the second link a couple of times and never actually gone in-depth. It contains some great and unique photos, I especially enjoyed the labeled dashboard from Kleinwagenmuseum, it a shame that the photo quality is so poor. All the chassis photos were also a buzz :D
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As a little treat I present the Mopetta Logo in vector graphics :)
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whilst on the Mopetta theme what is this ? it comes up on Mopetta images , i know that means little , is it a suspension unit ? what diameter and how do they work ? would it fit my Bruetsch Pfeil ? aprox 5" ?
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The comments that come up on the site say it's an engine mount from a Mercedes 190SL. As far as I can tell, the flat end with two holes bolts to the centre of the main chassis with the pointy end pointing downwards. The rear wheels are mounted on a trailing arm that runs behind, and pivots at the rear of the chassis. Another arm runs toward the front of the car linked directly to the trailing arms and this acts on the pointy end of the engine mount. So when the rear wheels move down it gets squashed and when they move up it stretches.
http://www.autohausaz.com/mercedes-auto-parts/mercedes-190sl-engine_mount-replacement.htmlhttp://
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an engine mount from a Mercedes 190SL
;D You nifty little builders. I can imagine some tom scratching hid head mumbling -what is this and how can I use it for something else
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Google probably already told you... if not here are some mopetta pics:
http://www.rollermobilclub.ch/tag/mopetta/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19867693@N03/sets/72157603257076152/
good luck with your project! By the way, driving the mopetta is not as exciting as looking at it.
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forgive me for deviating please but whilst on my Bruetsch suspension querie - any thoughts could this be used as a replacement for the missing suspension units 2 back 2 front - and which way up ? costing looks awful an american site has them at over $ 200 each !! ( the car featured is Bruetsch Zweg Zweisitzer probably the only surviving one )
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chassis set up
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Hi Richard
Could you not use Mini ones with a suitable mount - these are available at £40 each - they may not look original but I'm sure they would do the job.
Mike
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Richard I sent you a PM on this part
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Thanks both I will try and pin this down this time !
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I bought mine for around €30, the original mercedes part was over €200!
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gummilager-Motorlager-Getriebelager-Mercedes-190SL-W108-W110-W111-W113-/400454136421?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item5d3ced3265
Oliver
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oliver ! more questions than answers ! why did you buy it/them ? for a Mopetta ? what diameter are they ? also could you possibly measure your Bruetsch badge when you get a chance ? - thanks so much
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okay mike i will try these out for size first thanks - other than this cone what would i need , obviously i need to make up 2 front and 2 rear actuating arms but what do mini "trumpets" do ? are they just actuating arms ? why are they so shaped etc. any Mini experience out there ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/mini-suspension-cone
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I did a little on line research, and determined that the cones are just actuating arms as you had guessed.
Just designed that way to spread the load onto the doughnut. Long adjustable length rods with a separate cone can be fitted to allow infinite height adjustments, which can be particularly use full after they initially settle in.
But to Mike, and anyone else with major Mini experience- Why do the eBay adverts usually show only one item listing for "Mini suspension doughnut", whereas I saw a picture of a front unit in situ that looked considerably shorter/ more squat than ones shown at the rear of a car?
Also, how do you think these would fare for Steve Fisk's custom suspension that he is building for his P 50 replica, in place of his chosen stacked Rover engine mounts?
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Your project sounds cool , http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-90-110-ENGINE-MOUNTING-RUBBERS-2-/270715903091?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f07ecdc73 I used these on mine because it's an experiment 2 for a fivers pretty good even if it don't work
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here are a couple of pics of my car...
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Your aluminium trim looks the same as used on VW Samba minibus etc. Nice!
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WOW! this is amazing! Thank you soo much! ;D ;D
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Just finished the logo, does anyone have any input?
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Very nice but what will it be ? A casting or transfer/decal or what ? Has our friend bruetsch-freak nothing to say on the subject ? You are very quiet nowadays my friend. :)
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Regarding Bob's comment
trim looks the same as used on VW Samba
Is it possible that it is the same trim? considering that the samba is German and from '51, it doesn't seem very improbable.
I'm still ambivalent how to go about with production of the logo, for the moment I'm leaning toward CNC, I will make some further research first.
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Hi Linus. I'm sure the trim was a common part in Germany in the 50's. I only made the observation as I spent much time searching for the correct trim for a project I'm currently working on and almost gave up and used this German trim. Thankfully I eventually found the correct extrusions here in the uk. I will send you a private message. Bob
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I just wish to show off a little with the progress I have made so far. As you can see it is still missing the bottom half of the body, if anyone has a clue as to where I might get some reference for its shape? Despite a few missing elements I dare say that most of the troublesome bodywork is done ;D
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is this one any good to you ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301175299736?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_44wt_1275